Talk:Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922)/Archive 7

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30,250 building and village destroyed but only 20,000 Turk massacred?

Hmmmm.... That's weird. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 08:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Insanityclown1 BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 08:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no reliable source saying that it as high as you are trying to claim. The criticisms against McCarthy are more than enough to call the validity of his claims into question. Insanityclown1 (talk) 08:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Welp, the only source claims that 264,000 Greek massacred by Turks is Rudolph J. Rummel, who loves to exaggrate the death tolls. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 08:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

And if you read the article, you’ll find that it makes no difference on the conclusions he draws even if the figures were actually fudged by a factor of 30 percent. Second, Rummel does not establish an upper limit, simply a floor. Meanwhile, you continue to engage in blatantly biased edits all across Wikipedia. Insanityclown1 (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, not only McCarthy says this, these sources says villages burnt by hellenic army also:

• Özdalga, Elizabeth. The last dragoman: the Swedish orientalist Johannes Kolmodin as scholar, activist and diplomat (2006), Swedish Research Institute in Istanbul, p. 63.
• Várdy, Béla (2003). Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe. Social Science Monographs. p. 190.
• Toynbee, Arnold. "Toynbee, Arnold (6 April 1922) [9 March 1922], "Letter", The Times, Turkey".
• Loder Park, U.S. Vice-Consul James. "Smyrna, 11 April 1923. US archives US767.68116/34".
• HG, Howell. "Report on the Nationalist Offensive in Anatolia, Istanbul: The Inter-Allied commission proceeding to Bourssa, F.O. 371-7898, no. E10383.(15 September 1922)

BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Buildings destroyed does not equal human casualties. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

An extentes confirmed user @Buidhe also does not accepts Rudolph Rummel as a reliable source.[1] BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 08:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Your point? I’m not Buidhe. And if you’re going to play that game, I don’t accept numbers from noted genocide deniers like McCarthy. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I was not asserting that his death toll was valid, but simply that McCarthy’s numbers are very suspect. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is talking about whether Justin McCarthy is a genocide denier or not. It is up to him whether he accepts the genocide or not, but his calculations regarding the oppression of the Turks should not be ignored. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence pointing that his numbers are biased in favor of a Turkish nationalist point of view. That is enough to make it highly suspect, as he has no interest in reporting factually accurate numbers, only numbers that support his viewpoint. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It's fair to say that McCarthy is biased, but I'm not sure that it makes him entirely unusable with regard to Turkish or Muslim losses. On that subject he is better regarded than on Armenians. I would cite him over Rummel who knows little about Ottoman history (t · c) buidhe 00:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

And also, only in Turgutlu Massacre, 31,000 Turk died. Saying 15,000 Turk died in this war is similar to saying the Earth is flat. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

No one is saying only 15000 died, only that it is currently inappropriate to assert that over half a million people died without reliable sources. If you read the article, you would have noticed that 15000 was the low end of the range, not the upper limits. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Then, why are you not fixing this mistake? BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Because it’s 3 in the morning where I am. Insanityclown1 (talk) 10:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It is 1 p.m. here (sivas) BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That’s great. I’m not where you are. Insanityclown1 (talk) 10:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Ahh, nevermind... BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 10:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Was it so hard not to make a blatantly nationalist statement in the info box? Insanityclown1 (talk) 10:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

"Nationalist" BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 19:05, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

"No one is saying only 15.000 died" are you OKAY? Rummel literally said this. You always saying me I violate WP:NPOV but you literally do the same what you blaming me. BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 12:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you understand the difference between minimum and maximum… Insanityclown1 (talk) 12:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Because if you actually read the citation it said 15,000 MINIMUM. As in At Least 15,000. Insanityclown1 (talk) 12:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

“ In my opinion, the worst of these was being accused of being a politicized, nationalist scientist, which is what I hate the most. Untrue reasons were made up as to why I said these things. Like my mother is Turkish, my wife is Turkish, I receive huge amounts of money from the Turkish State. None of these are true, but even if they were true they wouldn't affect my writing one bit. The way to challenge a scientist's work is to read what he has written and respond with scientific work, not to attack that scientist's personality. ”

-Justin McCarthy, about the allegations being funded by the Turks BaharatlıCheetos2.0'ın devamı (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that’s not convincing. McCarthy's work "[serves] to muddy the waters for external observers, conflating war and one-sided murder with various discrete episodes of ethnic conflict... [A] series of easy get-out clauses for Western politicians and non-specialist historians keen not to offend Turkish opinion”

Donald Bloxham Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Point is that there seems to be consensus in the academic community that something is fishy with McCarthy’s numbers. A quote by McCarthy isn’t enough to clear suspicion. Insanityclown1 (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

References

George Horton cannot be cited as a reliable source

I noticed that in this article, users cited his book as a source in here:

“ Atrocities were committed against Greek and Armenian populaces, and their properties were pillaged. Most of the eye-witness reports identified troops from the Turkish army having set the fire in the city. ”

But, in fact, his book can't be used for WP:RS.

Let's start about George Horton:

He is mostly criticized by most of the historians as "Anti Turkist". His book's full name is "An Account of the Systematic Extermination of Christian Populations by Mohammedans and of the Culpability of Certain Great Powers; with the True Story of the Burning of Smyrna". Even the title of his book enough to see his bias, right? If it isn't, I will give you a fact: his wife was a Greco-American named Catherine Sacopoulo (later Catherine Horton).

Also, In an article ("George Horton: The literary diplomat)" published in the British journal "Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies", which deals with the profile of the consul George Horton, Brian Coleman examines aspects of journalism, romantic literature, diplomacy and an ancient Greek friendship. describes this personality in the following words: "George Horton was a man of letters and also the US Consul in Greece and Turkey at a time when deep social changes were taking place. He wrote a book about the recapture of Izmir by the Turkish army in September 1922. However, His style of telling the subject goes beyond the dimension of who is at fault, and takes the form of presenting Muslims in general, and Turks in particular, as evil creatures. In several of his novels written twenty years before the events of September 1922, he had already defined the Turk as the permanent villain of Western civilization. "In his storytelling, he wrote as a public relations expert, not as a historian."

So, we cannot use this man's "works" as a reliable source. DevletGiray (talk) 11:11, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

References