Talk:Goshir Gyaltsab

Removed sentence

I removed this sentence from the article: "He is one of the Karmapa's four regents together with Tai Situ, The Shamarpa and Jamgon Kongtrul". It's not clear whether this means that the current Goshir Gyaltsab is one of the four regents—this is not currently the case because the Karmapa is not a minor—or whether each Goshir Gyaltsab is one of the four lamas who can serve as a regent when the necessity arises. In the latter case, I'm not sure this group is limited to four, and I'm also not sure whether the Jamgön Kongtrül had ever been a regent before the 1980s.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 22:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

thanks - it was out of date information as the Karmapa is now not underage. Secretlondon (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually This says they "have always been the Vajra Regents of the Karmapas and caretakers of the Karmapa's monasteries". I'm going to add something of that back in. Secretlondon (talk) 05:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, caution is needful, since you're quoting from Goshir Gyaltsab's own press about himself. Anyway, I thought about it, and you're right, something of this should be restored. It certainly seems likely that the first Gyaltsab had some important capacity as a regent, since "Gyaltsab" is a word meaning "regent". Additionally, at least one Gyaltsab subsequently played a major role in recognising a new Karmapa.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

We can certainly add something in about him being one of the four "heart sons" of the 16th Karmapa as that's easy to find references for. I note that the French article has a lot more detail, but no refs. Secretlondon (talk) 21:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, this article by the Shamarpa argues that "heart son" is not a meaningful description and that it was self-applied by Tai Situ, so I don't know what to say about that. As for Gyaltsab's role as regent, this history of the lineage specifically mentions the regencies of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Gyaltsabs, so I propose to mention that in the article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 01:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to handle the pro Sharmapa sites, they seem to be unsourced and character assassinations. I've been avoiding them as references, but I suppose we should say group X says Y. Secretlondon 20:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well the source for the Shamarpa's article is the Shamarpa himself, who certainly seems quite knowledgeable about the subject. However, I agree that he is not a neutral source. But where are we going to get a neutral description of a lama, especially one who is wrapped up in the Karmapa controversy?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 01:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. We could see if we could find a reference to heart suns that predates the death of the 16th Karmapa which would contradict the Shermapa I suppose. I don't have access (currently) to any academic journals on the subject - not that we could necessarily presumed they'd be neutral either. The whole area needs work as the online sources tend to be written by believers. Secretlondon 01:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

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I have inserted some more information about Gyaltsab Rinpoche, which was given to me by his secretary. About the term heart-son, perhaps this is an answer to your search: A leading scholar in the Kagyu and Nyingma schools of Tibetan Buddhism, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche was born in Sikkim, recognised by the 16th Gyalwang Karmapa and His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama as the seventh in line of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoches. In 1979, HH The 16th Karmapa formally empowered Ponlop Rinpoche as one of the lineage holders of the Karma Kagyu School and proclaimed him his heart-son. This information is from Bodhi Magazine, volume 9, nos. 1+2. Greonterp (talk) 17:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 16:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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