Talk:Gonfalonier of the Church

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Other gonfaloniers

This source (n118) suggests Francesco Maria I della Rovere was gonfalonier c.1512 but it's hard to see how that fits with the other nominees, unless there were sometimes more than one at a time. -LlywelynII (talk) 17:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Meanwhile, this source implies he was in command all the way from 1508 to 1516. -LlywelynII (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gonfaloniers, Captains General, & Commanders of the Papal Army

Stalwart111 (talk) left a message on 13:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC), including the following:[reply]

There seems to be some confusion about the translations that define the distinction between Captain General of the Church and Gonfalonier of the Church. There are a number of referenced sources (usually translations of original Italian to English) that seem to describe both posts as Commander of the Papal Army. On this basis I tried to fill in some gaps at Gonfalonier of the Church which could be obviously filled using the varying translations (there are corresponding gaps in the list into which variously described Commanders fit). I noticed, though, that Taddeo Barberini is already listed as a Captain General of the Church. Most evidence suggests his appointment was purely nepotistic (thanks to his uncle) and that there was little consideration of military leadership talent. His only real ‘military’ endeavour was the Wars of Castro and the use of the term ‘Wars’ is generous – more accurately neighbourhood spats between families. Given that his role was almost certainly ceremonial, and given the seeming uncertainty over the English translation, is it not more likely he held the ceremonial role rather than the military one? Are you aware of anyone being appointed to both?

The translations of Captain General and Gonfalonier are given on their pages: they were separate positions occasionally held by the same person and both sometimes involved commanding armies for the papacy. The pages are a little erroneous in suggesting that Gonfalonier was always a more ceremonial post than the Captaincy General: Charlemagne, eg, was certainly a ceremonial nod; some gonfaloniers like Cesare Borgia were very active. By the time Gonfalonier was solely a ceremonial and hereditary position, it was called something else (albeit the Vessiliferi still got called Gonfaloniers in translation.) Meanwhile, yes, several people held both titles, and there were also condottieri and others who commanded papal armies without having either position.

So generally speaking, it's a bit of a mess and could probably do with a Medievalist coming through with some thorough notes about just when and how the positions changed, but I'd think the pages (as lists of office holders) are best served by including the nepotists, however undeserving, and excluding "commanders" unless they're sourced somewhere as holding the actual office. -LlywelynII (talk) 13:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]