Talk:Girnar

Girnar

I've moved this incomprehensible bit of text here, in case someone else can make sense of it: Giranr mountain is also important as most of all prominent and famous saints who had affected lifes of people of India and the world. People such as Swami Gunatitanad from the Swaminarayan Sampraday, Swani Vivekanand, Shri Nathu Ram Sharma of Bilkha who was a great Yogi, Shri Goraksh Nath the ever present yogi among others have achieved their knowledge here in Girnar. In its caves are residents of naga sanyasis; also foreigners came here to visit the fair organised at Maha shivratri nearly falling in January or February. Approximately ten to twelve of the lakh public visit every fair every year, and it is a joy of life to see the fair in Girnar. It is also famous for "parikrmma" (people walking around all mountains). It is held after eleven days of diwali known as "DEV UTHI AGIYARAS". Almost two to three lacs peoples used to take part in this fair ceremony.

It is in Gujarat, related to both Hindus and Jains. BuddingJournalist 08:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 18:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Not objective

Like any man-made, institutionalized religion in the universe, Seems very not to mention pushing some agenda. User:Blackarrow 1:23, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the Temple on ? Girnar is famous as the Also, the temple has been omitted. The information in this article is clearly incomplete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sspawse19 (talk • contribs) 08:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes. You are correct. I had added few details with the references in the article. Few people are trying to revert that. I have warned them and asked then to discuss on the talk page. Need support in this... Kautuk1 (talk) 06:28, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi there, you can add information on the conditions that you respect other peice of information which are cited of course and not to vandalise info and citations as you did in your previous edits Rishabh.rsd (talk) 07:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Also there is mention of temple under thetemple section Rishabh.rsd (talk) 07:57, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

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Admin support required

Girnar is the place of God Dattatray and all the proofs are linked and photos are there. But this information is removed by few group of members. Request your intervention and lock this article for no changes. - Kautuk1 (talk) 07:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Admin support required urgently

The information is removed/reduced again by few members. Request your intervention and lock this article for no changes. Pls see the correct article in this link https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Girnar&oldid=982114470 which was done in Oct 2020 and compare with todays article. Please help and take action- Kautuk1 (talk) 05:19, 17 Feb 2021 (UTC)

Protected

This page has been protected for a week due to an edit war. Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version; it is merely a device to make editors discuss their edits rather than blandly reverting each other. Please use this time to come to a consensus on what the page should include. Stifle (talk) 12:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Biased information present on current Girnar Article

First of all as anyone can see that Girnar article has been marked with following issues: This article possibly contains original research. (June 2020) This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2015) This article may be too technical for most readers to understand. (November 2020)

Particularly if you read the article, you will find that the article about 'A mountain' is filled with really detailed data about jain temple and said Jain gods and monks having a claim on shrines as well and its history in a mythological contexts not backed by any facts. Secondly, references are very poor and doesn't even open which signifies this. (which has been pointed out way back in April 2015, June 2020)

Lastly, there are controversial accusations made towards Hindu community at the start of the article which is also not backed by any relevant reference.

The version that I put https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Girnar&oldid=1095105878, attempts to mitigate occurrences of this biased information but I am getting flagged and my changes are getting reverted. Please compare my version vs current version to see what's going on.

I want to be a genuine contributor to Wikipedia that's why I don't want to actively engage in any argument. However, I would be grateful if avid contributors look at this article and look at this message in a holistic way putting aside their biases and update the Girnar article accordingly.Then Girnar article can become a truly informative to follow wikipedia's mission 'to create and distribute a free encyclopedia of the highest possible quality to every single person on the planet in their own language'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 43.250.156.105 (talk) 17:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@43.250.156.105: Did you just admit to using sockpuppets? Wow. GTNO6 (talk) 07:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

No I haven't. Because I admit that I made an edit while not being logged in, but that was only because I forgot that I wasn't logged in, and unfortunately only realized it after making those edits. If there's any way to correct that mistake I will be happy to do it. This is clear case of 'whataboutism' by GTNO6, where instead having a discussion on the real topic, the user has been engaged in posting unwarranted warnings and trying to dissuade Users.

Now coming to the main point, which the discussion should have been in the first place, please read my above message again if you haven't, and come up with the facts first if you think that edits that you have made are legitimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tannaray68 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Kautuk1 also noticed similar issue of targeted removing of Hindu Temple and information in the past (visible above in the article). We need intervention from Arbiter/ Administrator address this as per my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tannaray68 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

• No sources provided for exceptional claims. I am reverting now. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 12:47, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Flag of Gujarat.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Information Missing on Hindu temples located on top of the girnar mountain

The first peak is topped by the Temple of Amba Mata, where newly-weds worship to ensure a happy marriage. Beyond here there is quite a lot of down as well as up to reach the other four peaks and further temples. The Temple of Gorakhnath is perched on Gujarat’s highest peak at 1117m. The steep peak Dattatraya is topped by a shrine to a three-faced incarnation of Vishnu. Atop the final outcrop, Kalika is a shrine to the goddess Kali. Kautilya 2296 (talk) 04:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Citation for the above data is Gujarat tourism website which is backed by Gujarat government. Please find the same" https://www.gujarattourism.com/saurashtra/junagadh/girnar-hill.html " Kautilya 2296 (talk) 04:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Missing information on the Hindu Temples present on 5he holy peak

this page is having adequate and very good information about the Jain temples present on the holy peak but missed the main information about the Hindu temples which are primary in all the temples present on the peak. The external links don't make any sense on the matter of unavailable information on the page as it is present at the last The Indoman 360 (talk) 18:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I also want to emphasize on this point as it relates to other topics of discussion in this Talk page. Many times when edits are being made to include Hindu temples a hostile behavior is seen where reverts are happening multiple times without further discussions. The following topic of "Preventing Edit War which is caused by misleading text being put in Hindu Temple section" where misleading text is being put in to undermine Dattaretya Temple (Hindu temple) which is visited by thousands Hindus for centuries. I urge Wikipedia contributors to review this. Thank you. Tannaray68 19:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Preventing Edit War which is caused by misleading text being put in Hindu Temple Section

Edit made on 02:42, 15 September 2024 by ParvatPrakash added a text with a news article as a reference. The text is assertive while the news article is merely reflecting a claim by one party awaiting a further proceeding by the High court of the region. I've tried to convey this in the edit message. However, the edits are being reverted without consideration for further discussion. I will really appreciate it if we can have a discussion here before adding information on the main page which could be misleading and incorrect. Thank you. Tannaray68 (talk) 19:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Greetings. I think I was mistaken in identifying the content in the source. I see you've already reverted my edit. Thanks. ParvatPrakash (talk) 22:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Preventing discriminate on religious grounds

Hello, recent edits made on 20:54, 22 September 2024‎ by Livingstonshr and [User:ParvatPrakash|ParvatPrakash]], removing a section of Hindu Temples needs a review. While a comment that the information is already covered in Tanks section is not adequate. While both users are avid contributors in Jain articles, seems like are keen on removing information which relates to Hindu religion and particularly Hindu temples on the mountain. I really urge other wikipedia contributors for an unbiased review of this. I am at a back foot due to the fact that there are many people contributing on Jain articles who are involved in edits on Girnar mountain. But can we please lift beyond our religious agenda to keep wikipedia truthful and unbiased and be reflective of the current state at the Girnar mountain where people of both Jain and Hindu religions have their temples and are worshiping their respective gods. Thank you very much. Tannaray68 03:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I have given a clarification in the section below on this talk page. Thanks.

Livingston Livingstonshr (talk) 04:47, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Your edit history clearly shows instances from the page Girnar where you have deleted well-sourced content on Jain history of the site as well. While I have not deleted any content myself, I know there's a religious agenda being run by some Hindus who don't seem to care about the Jain heritage of Girnar. Several paragraphs of well-sourced content were simply deleted by you, from what I can clearly see from your edit history. I believe if we want to keep Wikipedia a neutral space, we should put an equal emphasis on Jain heritage of Girnar. The Dattatreya shrine is a disputed land whose case is ongoing. You can refer to the proceedings of the case Bandilalji Digambar Jain Karkhana vs. State of Gujarat. If I look at it in an unbiased manner, Hindu shrines at Girnar are disputed, while the Jain ones are not. Therefore, there a greater part of proven Jain history to exist on Girnar. I understand your allegiance to Hinduism, but for a safer space, we should acknowledge the fact that you have deleted a lot of well-sourced content about Girnar's Jain history, even though it was not a threat to its Hindu history. If you really want Wikipedia to be an unbiased space, try restoring all the content that was well-sourced and was deleted by you. ParvatPrakash (talk) 05:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Again Edit war has been seen by user [[User:Livingstonshr|Livingstonshr] without further discussion on why the content should be removed. Asking other contributors to review this. Thank you. Tannaray68 03:55, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I have given a detailed explanation in the section below as to why "belongingness" isn't a valid argument and gave an explanation on why Girnar's association with Jainism needs to be in the pages's introductory paragraph. I request you to refrain from unnecessary reverts before a discussion and then accuse me for vandalism. This negates your proactive approach to reach out and discuss. Regarding my removal of Hindu temples section, the sources are not fresh and oversees the current situation in Girnar. Mere documented books aren't sufficient. The Hindu temples are located on disputed land, whereas Jain shrines of Neminath date back to Mauryan Empire, making Girnar an undisputed Jain Principal Pilgrimage destination.

Livingstonshr Livingstonshr (talk) 05:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Vandalizing Lead information

Hello folks Tannaray68 whose long edit history suggests that he is been into an agenda of relentlessly vandalizing and deleting Jainism related information on this page. The fact that Girnar is one of the holiest pilgrimages for Jains is indisputable. We have precedence from other pages like Shatrunjaya Hills where the religious information is present in the lead. He has been making claims of being on "back foot" itself suggests his edit - war engagement mindset. There is no mention of any belongingness mentioned in my edits. He continues to engage reverts with false accusations. I request Wikipedia community to take action against this account. It is an undeniable fact that there are Hindu temples too, just like there are Jain temples in Ayodhya or Tirupati, this doesn't change the fact that Girnar is one of the 5 Jewels or Jain Principal pilgrimages along with Mt. Shatrunjaya, Mt. Ashtapad, Mt. Parasnath and Pawapuri. So this place cannot be treated as an "equally sacred" for both. This place for Jains is what Mecca is for Muslims and Jerusalem for Christians. Thank you. Livingstonshr Livingstonshr (talk) 04:10, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Please understand. There's no content being deleted about Jainism. It's the opposite - content on Hinduism is deleted. Which in fact led to this discussion. This clearly indicate the biasness in your edits and opinions. In fact I am the first one to ask for help from wikipedia community. You can see in the edit 04:11, 23 September 2024‎ by Livingstonshr that there are no references included which can be grounds of further discussion in it's own rights. But first to emphasize on the point deletion is in this edit 03:55, 23 September 2024‎ by Livingstonshr - which indicates vandalism not the reverts which put back the content which had proper references. I do not wish to engage in any war. My goal was to open it for discussion. However in the last 10 minutes itself the user has reverted changes multiple times without any discussion. Thanks, Tannaray68 04:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your active approach for discussion. Having said that, it has been clearly stated from my end that the reasons provided by you such as "no religion in lead for mountain page" goes against the precedence set by Wikipedia community in the lead of pages of Kedarnath (a town), Shatrunjaya Hills (a hill), Tirupati (a town), Mecca (a city) where there is an explicit mention of a religion to which it is primarily associated with. It doesn't mean that these places don't have places of worship of other communities. For Girnar, it is one of the 5 principal pilgrimages and hence it should be primarily associated with Jainism. The Dattatray shrine is a disputed land between Jains and Hindus in Gujarat High Court, therefore it requires a more neutral language. Whereas all the Jain temples are indisputably owned by the shramans. I request you to understand the seriousness of the issue instead of engaging in meaningless edit wars.

Livingstonshr Livingstonshr (talk) 04:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for engaging in discussion. I totally agree with your point about the mountain being sacred to Jains and I haven't made any effort to undermine it and if I have by mistake then I apologize for it as it was never my intent. But it's also true that there are culturally and religiously important Hindu temples on the mountain Girnar. And it's not okay to delete information indicating presence of Hindu temple which is backed by valid references. You can even see that opening of Ropeway made news highlight that it's important for both Jain and Hindus. https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/ahmedabad/rajkot-33-year-long-wait-over-girnar-ropeway-project-gets-green-nod-3035333/. I never wished to engage in edit war. It happened only after the whole Hindu Temples section was deleted without a justification. I hope we can get past this and continue adding helpful and factual information which improves this articles where both Jains and Hindus can find useful information about their holy temples and pilgrims. Thank you. Tannaray68 (talk) 06:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I second your point on getting past this without much deliberation. Let's keep this a safe and unbiased space and only remove content that does not appear in well-known sources. Thanks ParvatPrakash (talk) 06:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, the news article simply highlights the infrastructural developments taking place in the area, highlighting its importance for Hindus and Jains. This doesn't change the fact that the "Dattatray temple" and "Amba mata temple" is still a matter of dispute in the Gujarat high court. So to put them in "Hindu temples" section is outright misleading to the readers and hence unacceptable.

Livingstonshr Livingstonshr (talk) 06:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No it is not in any way misleading to put "Dattatreya Temple" and "Amba mata temple" in Hindu temples section, as they are Hindu Temples and every year hundreds of thousands of Hindu devotees are visiting it. Filing a case in court doesn't make any party right or wrong. It's the judgement which decides the outcome. By that logic any court case can be filed against Jain temples or other Ashoka scriptures or any shrine for that matter does that mean you would remove them from Wikipedia article pending outcome of the judgment? No right!? In court of law it's always "Innocent until proven guilty". There are Archeological survey of India records dating back to 19th century which mentions presence of Jain and Hindu temples for more than two thousands years and how pilgrims to Girnar by both Jain and Hindus and sects of hinduism such as Vaishnava have been deemed sacred which I am pretty sure will be used in deciding the verdict in such a court case. Hindu and Jain religions and cultures have overlapped for thousands of years. So suddenly there shouldn't be any animosity. Constructive editing which adds factual information about both Jain and Hindu temples is always welcomed but we shouldn't make any effort to undermine importance of one over the other. Thanks. Tannaray68 (talk) 08:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. We can see your edit history that shows you've deleted a lot of (the whole section except pictures) well-sourced content on Girnar's Jain history without reasonable explanation. Urge you to not repeat the same without reasonable explanation. ParvatPrakash (talk) 05:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Reiterating my reply in above comment, It's never my intent to remove information pertaining to Jain temples in Girnar, I know that it has been a sacred mountain for Jains and if by mistake I have then I apologize for it as it was not intentional. All I wish that article is factual and useful for for Jains and Hindus as there are lots of religiously important temples for both Jains and Hindus. Thanks for putting information about Jain Temple back in the article. Tannaray68 (talk) 06:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion About New Content

Greetings! @Livingstonshr. I understand the removal of Achaaranga Sutra from lede, but the text does not mention Girnar at all. From the Svetambara canon, it is mentioned in Kalpa-Sutra and Uttaradhyayana-Sutra. Secondly, Ratnasār's connection with Kashmir is already mentioned in a later paragraph in the same section. The 3rd paragraph in the same section mentions a line "....Therefore, the current idol of Neminatha was installed by a Śrāvaka named Ratnasār of Kashmir in the 10th century CE. He is said to have had obtained this idol from demigoddess Ambika." Besides, the kind of language you added might not be acceptable on Wikipedia. See WP:SOAPBOX for more information. Best regards, ParvatPrakash (talk) 05:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

More superfluous information on temples is not required unless it adds anything distinct. I reverted your edits because of hagiographic language employed. I understand that you're trying to add value, but it's not any different from what's already stated. Superfluous information confuses readers as well. Also, for some more information, Shamba Kumara and Pradhyumana Kumara attained moksha at Mount Shatrunjaya and not Girnar as per Dhaneshwarasuri's Shatrunjaya Mahatmya. ParvatPrakash (talk) 05:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The sources for each of these are clearly provided in the edits itself. Links of Girnar with other states help in solidifying a fact. The section below doesn't explain with clarity about each peaks in brief or in detail. The hagiography has been already addressed in edits prior two your to reverts. Regarding who attained liberation where, this might be a sectarian difference rather than a factual. Livingstonshr (talk) 05:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The point about liberation is not a sectarian difference as the footprints are managed by Svetambaras who believe that the monks visited Girnar and attained liberation at Shatrunjaya. But let's keep that aside. The link of Girnar with Kashmir is already stated in the same section. What you added was only a floral form of the same sentence, which I understand would've been totally unintentional. Lastly, Achaaranga Sutra does not mention Girnar. A third-party source wouldn't be as reliable as H. Jacobi's translation of the text as we see it here: https://sacred-texts.com/jai/sbe22/index.htm. I'm here to add information to Girnar, but if it isn't me, it'll be someone else who removes what you added if it is superfluous. I suggest to keep the parts you added that are distinct from the already existing content in the same section and get rid of the ones that are superfluous. That's all I'm suggesting. ParvatPrakash (talk) 06:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Will be keeping the brief summary of 5 tunks, serves as an important guide for foreign tourists. Regarding Shambh and Pradyumna, you could have simply re-edited it as "visited" using same sources instead of deleting. Livingstonshr (talk) 06:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for directly deleting all of it. You did add a good guide though, about the 5 peaks. I appreciate that. Thanks and sorry again. Best regards, ParvatPrakash (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)