Talk:Giovanni Lonfernini

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Requested move

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Giovanni Lonfernini (II) → Giovanni Lonfernini (born 1976) — This article is about one of the two former Sanmarinese Captains-Regent who are both called Giovanni Lonfernini. Disambiguation by naming them Giovanni Lonfernini (I) and Giovanni Lonfernini (II) doesn't make sense at all. — supernorton 06:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Weak support. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Qualifier between bracketing parentheses reads in part Years of birth and death should not be used in a page title to distinguish between people of the same name. However I have no better suggestion, and agree that the current disambiguator is not good. Very interested in other ideas. Andrewa (talk) 12:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose, the proposed title is unwieldy and against policy/guidelines. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

From the survey above:

the proposed title is unwieldy and against policy/guidelines

The problem is that the guidelines don't suggest an alternative. Andrewa (talk) 21:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just move him to Giovanni Lonfernini, and if an article about the older one is ever created, it can go under Giovanni Lonfernini (senior)? +Hexagon1 ^(t) 04:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In some cultures (junior) would suggest a father/son relationship. Can't we do better? Andrewa (talk) 12:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry guys, i just realise that the proposed name does not obey the naming convention right after i've submitted the proposal. How about something like Giovanni Lonfernini (2003 Captain Regent) ? --supernorton 01:54, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds good, but do it for the older one. When a user comes looking for Giovanni Lonfernini, he's likely to be looking for this one, so this one should be primary. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 06:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's your reasoning here? There's no indication in the article or in List of Captains Regent of San Marino as to whether this person or the one who became Captain Regent in October 1941 is the more notable. Andrewa (talk) 18:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The newer one is .. newer. :) He's more likely to be sought after as a contemporary politician, than a historical politician. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that it makes the most sense to move this page to Giovanni Lonfernini, and if an article on the earlier regent is created, it could be located at Giovanni Lonfernini (Captain Regent, 1934) or something similar. Thoughts? Parsecboy (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. As long as there's only one article on wikipedia there's no need for any disambiguator. If an article on the older captain is ever written, one or both can be disambiguated (YEAR Captain Regent). (An alternative is to mention in this article that there was once another Captain Regent of the same name.) Station1 (talk) 23:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (New proposals)

Ok lets make things clear. Please vote (and state your reason) for the proposals below. --supernorton 06:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Giovanni Lonfernini (II) → Giovanni Lonfernini

Support - There is no article for the elder Captain Regent. I agree with some of you that no dab is needed if there is only one existing article to be disambiguated. --supernorton 06:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giovanni Lonfernini (II) → Giovanni Lonfernini (2003 Captain Regent)

Giovanni Lonfernini (II) → ? (Please state your suggestion.)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disambiguation

The problem now is that there are redlinks from two other articles to Giovanni Lonfernini (I), so assuming that in the fullness of time an article is created on the other Giovanni Lonfernini, it will probably be created under this name, which we have just rejected as unsatisfactory.

I think we need a more robust solution. The move is part of it, but it's not the whole answer. Andrewa (talk) 09:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One possibility is to create a stub for Giovanni Lonfernini (1934 Captain Regent) and change the two links to point there. Another is to add something similar to the second paragraph at Giuliano Gozi to this article and point the links here. Station1 (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or both. I've done that, and some other tidying up as well. Andrewa (talk) 21:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further cleanup

it:Giovanni Lonfernini links to this article as another language version, but this article does not currently link back - another wikidata glitch perhaps?

List of Captains Regent of San Marino lists two different people by this name, but links both to this same article. One was elected in 1934, 1937 and 1941, the other in 2003. Our very stubby article is on the latter and is under WP:BLP but also describes the former even more briefly.

Giovanni Lonfernini is currently a two-way DAB, meant presumably to distinguish the two, but we only have the one article at present. In that the earlier was elected three times, he may even be the more notable.

There were at one stage two redirects from Giovanni Lonfernini (I) and Giovanni Lonfernini (II). One of these is now up for speedy deletion, which is what has raised the issue at this time.

There is no it: page corresponding to our list, instead there is it:Capitani_reggenti_dal_2001 it:Capitani reggenti dal 1901 al 2000 etc.. (I don't know how Wikidata is supposed to handle this situation.) The first of these links to it:Giovanni Lonfernini which seems to be a more comprehensive article (more comprehensive than ours that is, but I don't read Italian and Google translator won't read the page either) on the one elected in 2003, and doesn't seem to mention the other. The second is mainly redlinks including one to it:Giovanni Lonfernini (I) which I guess was the source of our similar (for en: non-standard) disambiguation (it: may well have different DAB practices to those of en:).

More to follow. Andrewa (talk) 11:11, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally, we'd just create the other article of course :) But I wasn't able to find sufficient to me accessible sources for that. If anyone feels a calling there: please do go ahead. That would also be a satisfying outcome. The redirect is tricky right now, because we don't quite know whether this Lonfernini is indeed the first, or maybe they are even multiple people elected shortly after eachother. Unlikely, but who knows. And maybe there were even more people with that name. The (I) suffix is suboptimal imho, but a workaround at best. Once we have a proper source, that probably also has the year of birth, a much more desirable distinguisher. Hence I proposed to delete the redirect, to avoid confusion with blue links where they really are red :) effeietsanders 17:50, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article has now been moved back to Giovanni Lonfernini as requested at RM/TR by Station1 and actioned by Brojam. The dab page was moved to Giovanni Lonfernini (1976) and then turned into a redirect to this article. As I see it the current situation with redirects is as follows:

Giovanni Lonfernini (II) – good redirect, this guy is number II
Giovanni Lonfernini (I) – bad redirect, different person, either needs to be turned into an article or deleted
Giovanni Lonfernini (1934 Captain Regent) – bad redirect, same as directly above
Giovanni Lonfernini (1976) – good redirect, this guy is born in 1976

Everyone else agree with this summation? Jenks24 (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and no. That's the situation, but the good redirects aren't so much good as ok (in that they do no harm) and the bad redirects aren't so much bad as unnecessary (in that they do point to the only article that has any information at all about Giovanni I). The article is what we used to call a multi-stub, or set index article, that has info about the two separate people who share the name and office. The redirects don't matter, imo. Station1 (talk) 06:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]