Talk:Getrag

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/Archive 1

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Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GETRAG → Getrag — Compliance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). The old move claimed "GETRAG" is an acronym but it is really a syllabic abbreviation which is not normally written in all capitals (see below sources). —Fatsamsgrandslam (talk) 01:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Oppose: I don't see any sources or anything in the manuals of style defining GETRAG as a syllabic abbreviation rather than an acronym. I don't see how that could be the case since GETRAG integrates the preexisting acronym/abbreviation AG, which is always capitalized.~ Dusk Knight 03:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nominator's evidence below. Seems to be almost always written "Getrag". "Getr.AG." is not what I would call an acronym, especially since it is no longer an Aktiengesellschaft, but a Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung. Its just a company name nowadays as far as I can see. Whydontyoucallme dantheman (talk) 12:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per number and quality of sources below. Callmederek (talk) 17:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. "Getrag" is much more common as seen at large range of sources listed below, and my own searching results to confirm. Also makes Wikipedia look less like a press release which I think is good. Tigeron (talk) 20:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This move should not take place as this is an acronym. Another example of such an acronym is SYSCO, which is also an incomplete acronym, or acronym-contraction as it stands for Systems and Services Company, but is an acronym never the less.

Wikipedia's Manual of Style on Capitalization (MOS:CL#All caps) covers this on point, stating as a caveat to the WP:MOSTM reference for trademarks, "write acronyms and initialisms in all capitals. But note that some acronyms have now become ordinary lowercase words, such as scuba and laser." GETRAG is an acronym and therefore falls under the first sentence quoted. GETRAG does not fall under the second statement about common words because it is not used as a common noun, it is only ever a proper noun referring to the GETRAG Corporate Group, unlike laser and scuba which refer to no particular identity. Acronym-contractions are not differentiated under the established rule. If this page is moved, we need to first revise the aforementioned rule found in the Manual of Style on Capitalization.
Common usage for reference to the company at hand is in all capitol letters, as GETRAG. Technical articles, catalog pages, faq information and so on is all caps. I have seen locations where it has been written without all capitol letters, however, this is most certainly done in ignorance of the fact that GETRAG is an acronym
Furthermore, we don't use Google news searches to dictate our English usage rules; Google searches only show most commonly accessed web pages given a search string (users don't choose pages based on an agreeable capitalization scheme, they click on most recent news stories). The reason for news searches showing so many normal case examples is most likely that many news media companies use normal case, which differs from the norm of all-capitalization (see Acronym#Pronunciation-dependent style 2).
The article on acronyms, specifically the Acronym#Case section, notes that acronyms are only subject to normal capitalization when they have become normal words.
Either way - the contention that GETRAG is not an acronym is countered by the Acronym article, see Acronym#Back-capitalization. The definition in that case asserts that when such acronyms are not strict acronyms they are capitalized, and when they aren't evenn proper nouns, they are still often capitalized (notice the example of the non-popper noun MARC as Mailing list ARChive). This gives an even stronger case to capitalize GETRAG because it follows that proper nouns acronyms should be capitalized all of the time, and non-proper nouns only sometimes.
The contention that GETRAG is a syllabic abbreviation is wholly without justification -- Wikipedia MOS defines this as an acronym instead. Nothing classifies it as a syllabic abbreviation; if anything, the inclusion of AG, and the exclusion of certain worts with the title und Zahnradfabrik Hermann Hagenmeyer, in GETRAG, further prevents it's classification as a syllabic abbreviation. Nicholas SL Smith^chatter 03:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose —Preceding unsigned comment added by GETRAGFAN (talk • contribs) 18:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I guess it is an acronym by some definitions, but my Oxford Companion to the English Language says that acronyms "encourage the omission of periods and the use of lower case letters", hence GETR.A.G. becomes Getrag. Standard usage favors moving the page, judging by evidence provided by nominator. Horsesforcorses (talk) 01:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support per examples of Fiat or Saab, which are similar automobile companies started as acronyms but now written in lower case. Chryslerforever1988 (talk) 23:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Especially Saab, since the "ab" is from Aktiebolaget (joint stock company) Chryslerforever1988 (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I understand the opposers arguments. However capitalising an acronym of more than four letters is rare when it is not made only of initial letters. See Acronym#Pronunciation-dependent style 2 which mentions the New York Times writing 'NATO' but 'Unicef'. Beyond that, the nom shows 'Getrag' written in lowercaps by specialist auto publications, books, and service manuals, sources where would I expect the trademark owners preference to be respected. Chryslerforever1988s mention of Saab (above) is also a compelling parallel and I see sufficient evidence of the company name being written in standard English to support the move. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per nominator. Compulsions70 (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. See recent moves of Brabus and Necco where acronyms are written as lower case because of usage in media and other sites outside wikipedia. Iamaleopard (talk) 03:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support nominator's request to move as more accurate position. User:Nslsmith opposing: 'common usage is in all caps in Technical articles, catalog pages, faq information', but no links to support this. User:Fatsamsgrandslam nominating: 'not normally written in all capitals', links to support this in trusted newspapers, books, a popular science magazine, and technical manuals. Zuiver jo (talk) 22:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and Whydontyoucallme dantheman. – Cyrus XIII ^(talk) 09:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Previous move discussion at /Archive 1. I moved page so the two ==Requested move== sections would not get confused.

Examples of "Getrag" in external sources:

News Media

Auto magazines and periodicals

Books and Manuals

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

'Founder' company

In the infobox, it states that the company was originally founded as Getriebe und Zahnradfabrik Hermann Hagenmeyer GmbH & Cie KG, and this is supported by a citation. However, in the lead paragraphs, it states that the GETRAG of todays company derrived its name from Getriebe- und Zahnradfabrik Hermann Hagenmeyer AG, but there is no citation for this. I'm not disputing either name, and I fully accept that companies 'evolve' - and for an expanding German company, going from a Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung (GmbH) to an Aktiengesellschaft (AG) is a natural progression. This needs better citations. 78.32.143.113 (talk) 09:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ford citations

What's with all the citations for Ford and Getrag's joint venture? Most say the exact same things. Trifecta123 (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not the biggest

ZF has more than 10 times more employees so I think it is not factually correct to call Magna PT the largest manufacturer of transmissions. Citation needed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:14BA:1AFA:D400:D893:E3A1:72FC:2102 (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]