Talk:German retribution against Poles who helped Jews

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36 Poles died because they saved Karski

http://twojsacz.pl/28-lipca-1940-akcja-szpital/

Poles died not only because they helped Jews but also because they collected data about the Holocaust and transferred it to London. Polish people who cooperated with Sugihara also died, at least one of them killed by NKVD, the majority of them by Nazis. Zofia Kossak survived Auschwitz, Sławik's wife - Ravensbrück.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The page lists Sławik, but not his wife and doesn't list Zofia Kossak.Xx236 (talk) 06:54, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming

This article should be renamed to reflect proper English. Two changes are needed:

"repressions" should become "retribution" (I've just done that).
The title should be prefixed by "during the Holocaust".

I'm raising it here because the second change would make he title fairly long. Suggestions? François Robere (talk) 16:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Examples of repression should be replaced by Examples of retribution?Xx236 (talk) 06:55, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done. François Robere (talk) 08:31, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why is retribution better than repression? Ping User:Nihil novi, whom I always defer to when it comes to such nuances in English. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:00, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for raising the question.

"Retribution" is punishment (sometimes with a religious coloring).

"Repression" is a restraining or subduing.

This article on World War II "German retribution [or, as it originally read, repression] against Poles who helped Jews" discusses punishments meted out by the Germans during World War II to Poles who helped Jews. But those punishments were in the broader service of discouraging Poles from providing such help in the first place (though the Germans doubtless also welcomed, in the process, opportunities to rid the occupied Polish lands of some of their ethnically-Polish denizens); in other words, in the service of repressing Polish impulses to help the persecuted Jews.

The article discusses not only punishments but also other means of preventing Poles from helping Jews, including propaganda designed to prejudice Poles against Jews.

Thus "repression" subsumes "retribution" as one of a number of approaches to discouraging ethnic Poles from helping Jews, and would therefore seem the more appropriate term.

This article is an 11 March 2018 translation of the corresponding Polish Wikipedia article, "Niemieckie represje wobec Polaków pomagających Żydom", in which "represje" appears in the plural ("repressions"—that is, processes or means of reprisal).

Factoring in the article's original Polish authors' intent and the present English-language article's contents, a more felicitous title might be "World War II German repression of Polish help to Jews".

The article itself reads as though it had been translated by either a computer or a non-English-speaking human and would require a thorough copy-editing to make it properly legible.

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 10:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~"World War II German repression of Polish help to Jews" seems to be better fitting and reflects the article itself much better.GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:31, 1 May 2018 (UTC)~~[reply]

Examples of retribution

The examples should be divided into GG, GG dominated by Ukrainians, and annexed lands (Dzwonowice). Each area was different. Xx236 (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Concur, where applicable. Nihil novi (talk) 10:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

UNDUE coverage of FRINGE SPS in our article

@GizzyCatBella: - the following beyond being sourced to what doesn't appear to be a RS (a communique of a regional office), contains a mention of Poray (and savingjews.org) in a footnote. Poray herself wasn't published in a reliable venue (running her personal website and publishing it later as a self-published book). Inclusion of this WP:FRINGE work in our article is WP:UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 18:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

German antisemitic poster, 1942.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Waclaw Zajączkowski

Jan Grabowski:

Waclaw Zajączkowski's Martyrs of Charity [is] a blatantly hagiographical book, devoid of any academic standards, written to elevate Polish national heroism and suffering.
— Grabowski, Jan; Klein, Shira (2023-02-09). "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust". The Journal of Holocaust Research. 0 (0): 1–58. ISSN 2578-5648.

Gunnar S. Paulsson:

Zajączkowski is cited here only for the sake of argument; his clearly polemical and often antisemitic tone precludes his book from being taken as serious scholarship
— Contested Memories: Poles and Jews During the Holocaust and Its Aftermath ed. Joshua D. Zimmerman. Rutger University Press. 2002. p. 192

Any opposition to exclusion? TrangaBellam (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it, it's a low quality amateur research. Although I am mildly curious what is in "Korboński 2011?, p. 69." that was cited in the relevant footnote. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:54, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Anna Poray

The article currently states:

Anna Poray-Wybranowska in her work entitled "Those Who Risked Their Lives" included surnames of over 5 thousand victims.^[1]

References

^ Anna Zechenter. Jedenaste: przyjmij bliźniego pod swój dach. „Biuletyn IPN”. 3 (98), 2009–03.

The book in question was self-published by Anna Poray, an amateur from what I could gather during the 2018 AfD about the author: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray. The book is listed as published by: "A. Poray, [Place of publication not identified], ©2007", per Worldcat. Thoughts? -- K.e.coffman (talk) 11:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since nobody has chimed in, I plan to remove this. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the question should be put differently. Is there any Polish source allowed in Holocaust related articles? (especialy these not approved by Jan Grabowski or our Russian colleague above)? 2A02:A311:A344:E780:30A4:D30C:EFAC:F282 (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed in this edit, alongside other uncited material. Lol at the anon above -- please log into your account. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:26, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But if her estimate is cited by a RS, isn't this sufficient? Unless we have problems with "Anna Zechenter [1]/[2]/[3]. Jedenaste: przyjmij bliźniego pod swój dach. „Biuletyn IPN”. 3 (98), 2009–03". [4] _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:19, 29 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This low-quality estimate would still be undue. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 03:51, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(a separate thread collapsed and copied)

Extended content

Note: The 2018 AfD about the author: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anna Poray was initiated by the now globally banned user Icewhiz who also attempted to remove this IPN source based on Poray. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:24, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @GizzyCatBella: what is the point of this comment? What are you trying to convey? --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

~~Hi, this significant information is related to the upcoming ArbCom case. (nothing to do with you) - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:27, 11 March 2023 (UTC)~~[reply]

If this is about the upcoming Arbcom case, what does this have to do with the thread that I started and the edit I made? This page is for commenting on the contents of this article, not about Arbcom evidence. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:07, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you don’t want me to make this fact to be highlighted (about the fact that this has been attempted to be deleted and removed by Icewhiz already, I can collapse it, but I believe it is worth noting (for the record) due to the upcoming ArbCom case. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:00, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: No point in collapsing this, since you've already commented here; would only lead to Streisand effect. As this has nothing to do with [me] (in your words), yet you chose to insert your comment about Icewhiz in the thread that I started about my suggested edit. Why is that? --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I want to send it to WP:RSN in a day or two to generate more comments concerning that source (I was about to remark to voice my argument but you beat me to it and removed the source). Due to the upcoming Arbcom case, I’m very cautious about reverting anything without making sure I have the community consensus. The purpose of my note was to have people at WP:RSN aware of the banned user's involvement in the removal of it and have ArbCom (they will look at the editing history of all involved users) be aware of it also. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Outdated statistic

The most recent source used in this article to assess the number of non-Jewish Polish citizens who were subject to Nazi-German repressions for helping Jews is the Register from 2014. However, in 2019 the Institute of National Remembrance of Poland published the book Represje za pomoc Żydom na okupowanych ziemiach polskich w czasie II wojny światowej. According to that source, the number of persecuted persons was 661, among them 358 executed. Since I am not allowed to edit this article, I suggest more experienced users to include this source and data. You can check the same article on pl.wiki for reference and more data. In fact, the article on pl.wiki (this article is in fact its translation) was significantly updated since 2019.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 09:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Anna Zechenter. Jedenaste: przyjmij bliźniego pod swój dach. „Biuletyn IPN”. 3 (98), 2009–03.

[1]