Talk:German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

UNDUE additions

This article needs to be focused on sources actually about the topic, and furthermore, real breakthroughs of research have happened since 2010 meaning I would be cautious of citing anything prior to that date. If you looked at the sources cited in the article, you would find scholarly discussions of various estimates that have been made, and I don't think any of the sources you cited would be found there.

BTW the idea that Gerlach isn't an expert in this topic is not accurate, before he wrote The Extermination of the European Jews he was the author of another book (in German) that discusses the German occupation of Belarus, with a distinct focus on the fate of Soviet POWs. And his scholarship is mentioned in most every other book on the subject. (t · c) buidhe 23:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

For example, Moore 2022 relies largely on secondary sources for its discussion of Soviet POWs. He cites Kay, Edele, Gerlach, Pohl, Wachsmann, Overmans, and Hartmann but not Jones, Goldhagen, or Calvocoressi (whose book does not seem to be academic history either). (t · c) buidhe 00:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe more than two opinions of the conflicting sort might be needed. Further, the sources I gave are cited on other pages in relation to the fate of Soviet POWs, so other editors deemed them sufficient enough to cite as sources. Furthermore, the date of the source shouldn't necessarily take away the credibility of a source automatically, as Hilberg's number of 5.1 million dead Jews is still cited, yet came before the 21st century and isn't near the 6 million figure. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but what makes your sources authoritative? For example, Keine Kameraden is still cited today in the relevant literature—and therefore mentioned in the article—but none of the sources you brought up are. One of them is a non-academic book, the other one was panned by other historians (Goldhagen), and Jones' book is intended as an overview of all genocides in history. Such a wide ranging focus seems to come at the expense of accuracy regarding every individual event (for example, the conquest of Carthage as genocide is not accepted by historians of ancient Rome, the Armenian genocide did not start on April 24, etc.). (t · c) buidhe 00:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I understand that the validity of adding the sources could be questioned under the fact that some of the sources aren't cited, however, I do believe that present and future historians may not catch all past work and use it. I add the sources to maintain consistency across pages and to give information which may add more to the article as it was cited on others. Also, a couple of websites, such as the Imperial War Museums cited the figure of 2.8 million as well as gendercide.org cited Peter and Goldhagen, whether these are valid are up to the opinion of whoever may view them. However, for example Cannae, ancient historians say so much and so died, and those numbers are used, even if modern historians may disagree. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense violates NPOV to offer every figure you can find as if they are equally accepted in the scholarly literature. Many events might have dozens of different death tolls you could cherry pick out of tangentially related sources but it is more informative to the reader to provide estimates that are widely discussed and accepted. (t · c) buidhe 01:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

To give the pages that cite these sources are the "World War II casualties of the Soviet Union" as reference 50 by Goldhagen, and on the list of genocides page which gives the high estimate of 3.5 million and cites the Total War book by Peter Calvocoressi. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

If you mean the Wikipedia pages, that is not a reliable source or indication of scholarly acceptance. (t · c) buidhe 01:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

That was not my intention, but rather a point to be made about consistency. There does not seem to be anything invalid about the sources given beyond circumstantial arguments. Reaper1945 (talk) 02:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Otherwise other editors may be asked Reaper1945 (talk) 02:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:ONUS and stop edit-warring to include content that lacks consensus for inclusion. This article will not satisfy the GA criteria if your edits go forward. (t · c) buidhe 21:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You added the paper "Hitler's Rassenkampf in the East: The Forgotten Genocide of Soviet POWs". While this is at least on-topic, it is hardly cited in the literature (7 citations total, compared to >500 for Wehrmacht im Ostkrieg: Front und militärisches Hinterland 1941/42, published around the same time). I don't recall hearing of the author or this work before today, despite the extensive literature searches I undertook before writing this article. This action suggests that instead of finding reputable sources and reporting what they say, you are specifically looking for sources that substantiate your viewpoint. That is not how you get a neutral article.

I don't think the 2.8 million estimate is mathematically plausible. Hartmann and Moore (& other sources) cover the discrepancy between German sources (3,350,000 Soviet prisoners captured during the time period when 2 million died—through the beginning of 1942) versus Soviet estimates (1 million lower). Even assuming the higher estimate is correct (most authors including Hartmann, Pohl, and Moore argue it is inflated), it is not the case that there were only 300,000 surviving POWs or exPOWs in January or February 1942. (Edit: Pohl writes: "Im Februar 1942, als bereits über 3,5 Millionen Gefangene gemacht worden waren, blieb die Zahl derer, die zur Arbeit eingesetzt waren, immer noch auf dem Stand vom Oktober 1941, nämlich bei 1,1 Millione") (t · c) buidhe 21:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Added: I found a later article by Porter from 2013 in which he gives a figure of two million[1] We can't cite his earlier paper if he changed his mind. (t · c) buidhe 22:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, you base your argument off of the number of citations, as if that is the be all end all for any inclusion of source, yet that is simply not the case. Before you said that the authors were not experts in the Soviet POW situation, yet when an expert in that same situation actually supports the number given by Peter and Guy, now it is based on the number of citations received. Regardless, there is going to be an upper limit for the death toll, beyond just 3.3 million. Just because you have not seen a certain work before does not negate its credibility, unless you would like to assume Thomas Earl Porter is a sort of fraud merely because you have unable to find him before? It is called extensive searching, and surely would have found it if you did such a tremendous literature search beforehand. Unless the upper limit of 3.5 million is actually disproved, then there is no reason to discard it, with a basis of "it is not in the books I cited" not being a fair or legitimate argument. Going off of that logic that the number is too high, then the upper limit of 7 million for the Holocaust must surely be discarded as well, because the number is not as cited as others. Also, Porter cites the 3.5 million as being the upper limit, which it canonically is, as another source within his paper states it as the upper limit, by Michael Ellman and S. Maksudov. Again, how this is so contentious over a cited upper limit is incredible, stating the number and the other sources does not take away from its neutrality in any way, when they are clearly mentioned or cited by others. Reaper1945 (talk) 22:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not understanding your reasoning here. I would agree that citations aren't the only measure of a fact's widespread acceptance. What I'm not seeing is any evidence that Porter's work is a similar WP:DUE weight of acceptance as the sources already cited in the article. Additionally, it's not clear to me whether you still arguing for the inclusion of the 2.8 million figure.

Remember that the WP:ONUS for inclusion is on the editor seeking to include disputed content. (t · c) buidhe 22:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

As for the 3.5 million death toll, could you explain where this estimate comes from and what demographic/historical research supports it? (t · c) buidhe 22:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It's quite literally in Peter Calvocoressi's book, for which Thomas Earl Porter himself says is accurate. Calvocoressi states that "The German attitude to Russian combatants was one of calculated callousness. Since they regarded Slavs and communists as hardly better than Jews, the Germans killed them or allowed them to die with similar cruelty and, likewise, in millions. The total number of prisoners taken by the German armies in the USSR was in the region of 5.5 million. Of these the astounding number of 3.5 million or more had been lost by the middle of 1944 and the assumption must be that they were either deliberately killed or done to death by criminal negligence. Nearly two million of them died in camps and close on another million disappeared while in military custody either in the USSR or in rear areas; a further quarter of a million disappeared or died in transit between the front and destinations in the rear; another 473,000 died or were killed in military custody in Germany or Poland." Calvocoressi quite literally breaks it down, do the other sources actually provide how they died or do they just stated 3.3 million without actually going into depth? Reaper1945 (talk) 23:03, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, a few Russian sources found, including by respected Russian historian Boris Sokolov, who quite literally is known for delving into the losses of the USSR during the Second World War, give a number of over four million Soviet POWs killed in captivity, over half a million more than the apparently contentious 3.5 million upper limit being debated. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

A Russian source as provided here goes into depth about Soviet prisoners of war, and actually comes to the conclusion that 3.9 million died. Another Russian source about losses states that more than 4 million were killed in captivity. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What makes these sources WP:RS? (t · c) buidhe 23:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

So now Russian sources are unreliable, despite them citing their information. Is Russian historian Viktor Nikolaevich Zemskov now an unreliable source? Reaper1945 (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The burden of proving these sources are reliable falls on the person who is citing them. No source is assumed to be reliable. (t · c) buidhe 23:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you link the Michael Ellman and S. Maksudov paper you're referring to? (t · c) buidhe 23:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, I think I've found it, if you mean the one cited by Porter (doi 10.1080/09668139408412190) for the 3.5 million figure. Unfortunately, it fails verification. Ellman and Maksudov actually say that POW deaths are much lower: "Second, the number of war-related deaths in captivity is exaggerated. Also here it is necessary to deduct natural deaths (about 100 000), Soviet prisoners of war who stayed in the West after the war (about 200 000—in particular Baits and Ukrainians) and those released by the Germans or escaped and not reinstated in the Soviet armed forces (e.g. because of age, injury or hiding from mobilisation agencies) who may be estimated at about 300 000. These corrections have the effect of reducing the military dead caused by the war to about 7.8 million. Of these 7.8 million, it would seem that 5.5 million died at the front, 1.1 million died from injury in hospitals, and 1.2 million died in German captivity" This does not bode well for the credibility of either Ellman & Maksudov or Porter (who I now realize, overstates the generally accepted civilian forced laborer deaths by an order of magnitude). (t · c) buidhe 23:52, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

If Ellman & Maskudov's estimate is 1.2 million dead in German captivity, then that would set a lower bound, and 2.8 million would no longer be the minimum. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Not if it's WP:FRINGE—which it is. (t · c) buidhe 00:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I would not go so far as to label them as WP:FRINGE for merely departing from usual sources, their source is actually cited quite a number of times in debates over combatant casualties during wartime. However, 1.2 million is clearly a lowball based off of all other sources given. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Calvocoressi, I thought we established was not an academic source. He is certainly not cited by most of the recent academic work that examines this question, showing a lack of acceptance of his figures.

How do you know that Sokolov is "respected"? Again, I do not see his work being cited by the major works by historians writing on this subject. (t · c) buidhe 23:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Has it been proven that Peter Calvocoressi is incorrect beyond the faulty citation argument? Clearly he does have merit if an expert in Soviet POWs cited him. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

when writing articles about WWII history, editors prefer sources that are recent—meaning that they incorporate the latest research—and academically rigorous. There's no way I would cite a non academic source from several decades ago when much better sources are available. (t · c) buidhe 23:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Books before the 21st century about the Second World War are still widely cited, whether it be by Craig, Beevor or others, they're all seen as accurate and still reliable, recency does not always equate with accuracy. Furthermore, Russian historian Boris Sokolov states from his research of the demographics that "Thus, the number of those Soviet prisoners-of-war who died in prison can be estimated to be approximately four million, or 63.5 per cent of the overall number of prisoners." While Russian historian Viktor Zemskov states from his research that "the scale of the death of Soviet prisoners of war (3.9 million) is absolutely correct", which actual Soviet sources at the Nuremberg Trials gave the figure of 3.9 million. Without a doubt, the 3.3 million cap on Soviet POWs is inaccurate and biased towards using only English sources. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

What makes these sources WP:RS? (t · c) buidhe 23:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Boris Sokolov has his credentials and is cited quite frequently in Russian sources, not to mention his article is in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies by the Association for Slavic, East European, and Eurasian Studies, which is peer-reviewed and respected. Furthermore, Viktor Zemskov has his credentials as well, and his article is sourced by the Samara Scientific Center of the Russian Academy of Sciences which is also peer reviewed. Reaper1945 (talk) 23:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

That hardly shows that these sources are generally accepted by other historians. Sokolov's paper, despite being written in English, has been cited only 20 times over 30 years. It is not cited by any of the recent works on Soviet POW deaths (compare Keine Kameraden which is older but still considered relevant). The other paper has a grand total of 4 citations. (t · c) buidhe 00:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Bottom line, I cannot support the inclusion of these estimates unless they are in the academic mainstream, which, as it is becoming increasingly clear, they are not. (t · c) buidhe 00:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Your notion of academic mainstream seems to be strictly within the realm of English sources only, excluding the vast amount of Russian sources covering the topic. Again, this is not up to one or two editors, this requires other input. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The mainstream number for Soviet deaths is 27 million, yet other sources which peg it at 40 million are still mentioned. If the source is scholarly and well-sourced, then it does not have to be mainstream to be credible, that's faulty. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

If they are not mainstream, by definition they are FRINGE. (t · c) buidhe 00:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Despite them not being fringe and being cited widely as estimates for the war and Soviet POWs. Quite clear that the term "fringe" is being misused. Reaper1945 (talk) 00:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

As we established above, the sources in question are not "cited widely as estimates for the war and Soviet POWs". (t · c) buidhe 01:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

They are. Not to mention they're cited on the "World War II casualties of the Soviet Union" page, including the Ellman paper. So quite clearly the articles have been seen as reliable and cited not just by me but others. Western scholars are not the only scholars in the world. Reaper1945 (talk) 01:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

FYI: here Reaper means the Wikipedia article World War II casualties of the Soviet Union. This is not the first time that this editor has suggested that citations on Wikipedia should be considered to determine whether to cite a source. Actually, the fact that these papers are cited in that article is a good indication that the other article needs to be revised with better sources. (t · c) buidhe 02:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, well you have not disproved any of the source and just spout fringe to censor any source which you do not agree with, despite being well-sourced and peer-reviewed, sorry, but until you actually dismantle or get other editors to say they are fringe and unreliable, then the numbers are staying. Reaper1945 (talk) 02:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Other people can make contributions to the page if they have sources to back it up, which is the case, clear-cut example of WP:OWN at this point. Reaper1945 (talk) 02:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

K.e.coffman sorry to bother you but what do you think of the sources added by Reaper in this diff (and extensively discussed above)? Is it correct to say they are equally mainstream & reliable as those already cited in the article, and thus given equal weight? (t · c) buidhe 03:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I was asked to provide input in this discussion by Reaper1945 due to my editing activity across genocide articles. My initial points are just to add some context to some of the potential sources:

1. Thomas Earl Porter is brought up for his journal article Hitler’s Rassenkampf in the East (2009), while it has low citations to it, it is published by a historian who specialised in genocide and soviet history relating genocide. Other articles from Porter that may be of interest on this topic, particularly Hitler's Forgotten Genocides: The Fate of Soviet POWs (2013), which details the history of estimating Soviet deaths in WW2, including the development of estimates during Kruschev and then after the collapse, where he places the death toll of Soviet POWs at 3-3.3 million (though he cites this to Ellman & Maksudov).
2. Peter Calvocoressi, while a historian, and having a nationality and political persuasion which are not aligned with the Soviets prevents considerations of such national or political biases, but as Buidhe pointed out the work is a popular history book, so should be weighted less than the academic literature.
3. For both Sokolov and Zemskov, they look to be respected historians, the articles cited are from lower impact journals, the journals are not flagged for predatory or other such substandard behaviour as far as I can see. Beyond this I can provide no more commentary.
4. Berkhoff, a senior researcher in holocaust and genocide studies, articles The "Russian" prisoners of war in Nazi-ruled Ukraine as victims of genocidal massacre (2001) and The Mass Murder of Soviet Prisoners of War and the Holocaust: How Were They Related? (2005), may be of use for the article, though lacking for death estimates, as while he says that ~2 million Soviet POWs died, how he came to these numbers are not the point of his articles, but they align with what looks to be the mainstream range.

Next, we should address the referencing of other Wikipedia articles. Many articles on Wikipedia will pull sources used from related articles maintaining consistency in information through Wikipedia, but this does not say whether the sources are any good in the first place. This is the case for the entry for this article on the List of genocides.

Beyond these comments, all I can say is from the current discussion, I lean with Buidhe's assessment of the situation. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cdjp1 I appreciate the input put into the discussion and discussing the sources. I think the biggest debate, at least from my point of view, is the upper limit of 3.3 million Soviet POWs killed, only due to the numbers given by Peter Calvocoressi, Sokolov and Zemskov, who all give numbers above 3.3 million, though Sokolov may incorporate other countries which held Soviet POWs, but practically all deaths occurred during German captivity. Another point is that of the "2.8 million killed in eight months or less", which is stated by Daniel Goldhagen in his book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" and reiterated by Adam Jones in his book "Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction". Reaper1945 (talk) 18:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Another source I found notes that Roman Rudenko stated at the 1969 International Conference On Prosecution Of Nazi Criminals in Moscow that "On the territory of the USSR, which was subject to occupation, the fascist invaders exterminated and tortured 6,074,857 civilians - men, women, children - and 3,912,283 Soviet prisoners of war." In a book, which is based off reports of participants in the international scientific and practical conference “Soviet and German prisoners of war during the Second World War: main directions of research,” which was held in Minsk in 2003, a paper by M.E. Erin in the book notes two scholars who believe the death toll of Soviet POWs to be over 4 million, those being professor V.I. Kozlov and professor V.E. Korol, and states that "Several controversial issues immediately emerged in the publications of Russian historians. The main one is what is the total number of Soviet prisoners of war and what is the total number of dead. Various arguments are given in favor of one point of view or another, but no consensus has yet been found."

Reaper1945 (talk) 19:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The Soviet delegation at the Nuremberg trials also claimed that the Germans did the Katyn massacre. Although most of their evidence was probably legit, I would not consider it to hold as much weight as you might think. Furthermore, whether there is consensus in 2004 does not necessarily say that there is not a consensus in 2024. (t · c) buidhe 19:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Is there an agreed concensus in the mainstream academia that the death toll of Soviet POWs did not exceed 3.3 million? Reaper1945 (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Continuation

• To answer your question above, I would say there appears to be a rough academic consensus, given that all high-quality recent sources quote either that number or lower figures. Furthermore, we have finished the GAN nomination—you can see below or here. After almost a month, there is not any other editors supporting your changes, so I suggest either we move forward with the version of the article which has been approved at GAN or seek additional input at WT:FAC, since I hope to get the article to FA status eventually. (t · c) buidhe 04:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Gave two days to respond on here while a reply to my comment took over two weeks to say that there is a consensus? Reaper1945 (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, is the dispute about the upper limit of the number of victims?

• 2.8 to 3.3 million
• 2.8 to 3.5 million

--K.e.coffman (talk) 01:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• Hi, thanks for weighing in. Reaper also wants to add the sentence Some scholars estimate that 2.8 million died in eight months or less from 1941 to 1942, which according to researcher Adam Jones, is a "rate of slaughter matched (to my knowledge) only by the 1994 Rwanda genocide", however this mortality rate has been contested. (t · c) buidhe 02:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman The dispute is over whether 3.3 million is the absolute upper limit or not, as the Peter Calvocoressi source puts it at 3.5 million, and the numerous Russian sources above by multiple Russian scholars, including historians Boris Sokolov and Viktor Zemskov put it near or over 4 million. Also included is a convention of Russian scholars who stated that there is no academic consensus for the total number. Reaper1945 (talk) 02:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Hmm... If I were faced with this dilemma, I would probably keep "2.8[1] to 3.3 million[2]" in the infobox as apparently the most accepted consensus at this point. I would not use Calvocoressi as too dated. The age is not the issue per se, but this work appears somewhat obscure. In contrast to, say, Keine Kameraden, which was also published in the 70s, but to this date is considered a groundbreaking contribution and is widely cited. Goldhagen does not seem particularly useful as he's not studied nor written on the Soviet POW topic that I'm aware of, so he must be sourcing his numbers from somewhere else.

Viktor Zemskov, on the other hand, seems quite credible and his 2013 article addresses the topic directly and in detail. He also earns my trust by having this in his wiki page: Zemskov revealed in detail the secret-police statistics about the Gulag, resolving many disputes among Western historians about the number of people affected by political repression in the Soviet Union. So he has the required mastery of stats and complex documentation. Upon cursory look, he seems to be making the argument that substantially more that 5.7 mln Soviet troops were taken prisoner and that the discrepancy is due to high mortality while in transit to prisoner camps, and so on. Perhaps include his conclusions as a minority opinion in the body of the article, rather than the infobox?

Hope this may be helpful. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

PS -- what page(s) in Porter 2009 are being cited? --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman Page 360 for Porter I believe. Would you also mind seeing if this source "" is credible? It's a book by Belarusian and Russian scholars at an international scientific and practical conference titled “Soviet and German prisoners of war during the Second World War: main directions of research,” which was held in Minsk on December 12, 2003. Some scholars in there claim over 4 million, and it states that no consensus has been found. Though there may have been a more recent conference. Reaper1945 (talk) 03:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

References

The page range for the Porter 2009 source is 839–859... there is no page 360. (t · c) buidhe 03:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the linked book looks like a credible sources. However, it does not seem to be entirely helpful in this dispute. The first page of the opening chapter, "Russian Historians on the Fate of the Soviet POWs in Nazi Germany", provides the numbers already used in the article: 5.7 mln POWs & 3.3 mln victims. None of the remaining chapters seem to have the detail and specificity of Zemkov's 2013 article "On the question of the total number of Soviet prisoners of war and the scale of their mortality (1941-1945)." --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, whatever is best works now. But a mention of Zemkov's article would work as you mentioned. Reaper1945 (talk) 15:57, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Must have looked at a different Porter source then. Reaper1945 (talk) 15:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Buidhe (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Catlemur (talk · contribs) 01:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I will start the review shortly.--Catlemur (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi Catlemur, please be advised that there is an ongoing dispute on the talk page, which you are welcome to weigh in on. I really appreciate you snapping up the review so quickly, however, I agreed not to edit the article until the dispute is resolved. (t · c) buidhe 02:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• Refs 20, 88 need to be pp. instead of p. since multiple pages are cited.
  • Done
• "experience during World War I]]" - Complete the wikilink and delink WWI in the following paragraph.
  • Done
• "These plans were mostly abandoned as they proved impossible to implement." - Why were they impossible to implement?
  • Reworded based on reread of the sources
• "which Kay cites as evidence" - Can you specify who Kay is?
  • Done
• In the Soviet prisoners of war by year of capture pie chart there is no description for the tiny orange part which I assume is 1945.
  • I could not make the label appear in Google Charts. I recreated the graph in Canva, but unfortunately I still can't figure out how to force the label for 0.6 percent of the total for 1945 to display. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
• Move the German language wikilink for collection point to first mention.
  • Done
• Before May 1942, when the order was rescinded → Before May 1942, when the Commissar Order was rescinded.
  • done
• "who defied German gender expectations and were supposed to be convinced communists" - What were the initial expectations? Women to be ardent communists? Maybe reword the sentence.
  • None of the sources go into detail about the Nazi/German gender roles, except Hartmann notes that female combatants were unheard of in the Wehrmacht. After checking the sources only Pohl mentions the stereotype of Red Army women being convinced communists, so I removed that part and linked Women in Nazi Germany so hopefully it reads clearer now. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
• "Many prisoners ran away because of the poor conditions in the camps," - Did they run away only because the conditions were poor or because they seized the opportunity to rejoin the Red Army or go back home for example?
  • This is the only reason given in the source. Escaping German occupied territory was not realistic because of the distance involved, and he is referring to a time before a large scale Soviet partisan movement formed
• "Particularly deadly assignments included road building projects, particularly in eastern Galicia" - Reword particularly to avoid repetition.--Catlemur (talk) 03:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Done

Sandboxing changes at User:Buidhe/Soviet POWs. (t · c) buidhe 06:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

• "The overall policy and camps in areas under civilian administration, the responsibility for these camps fell to the prisoner of war department of the Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt [de] under the OKW." - Reword.
  • Done
• "Soviet civilians who tried to provide food were often shot" and "Although Soviet civilians often attempted to provide food to starving prisoners of war, they were typically forbidden to do so because food supplies for the occupation forces were prioritized." - Those two sentences need to either be merged or follow one another.
  • done
• "Tatars, Turkic peoples, Cossacks, and Caucasus people were now eligible.[120]" - Turkic peoples links to the minor Turkish ethnic minority, did you mean Turkic peoples instead? Tatars are also Turkic by the way. Maybe change Caucasus people to Caucasians.
  • I ended up removing this clause because it is covered elsewhere in the military recruitment section
• Wikilink silencers.
  • Done
• Flossenbürg linked twice in the same section.
  • I always thought it was best to link both in the caption and running text, although MOS is ambiguous on this point.
• Both labor and labour are used in the article, this is inconsistent.--Catlemur (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Inconsistency is now eliminated except for quotes. Thanks for your review! (t · c) buidhe 05:58, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• The works by Hartmann are not listed in alphabetic order like the rest.
  • Multiple works by the same author are in chronological order—that's how it's usually done, as far as I can tell.

What I meant was that Hartmann's works are listed below Kay's, so the alphabetic order is not followed.--Catlemur (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• Provide translations of source titles which are written in languages other than English through |trans-title=
  • Done
• Provide publisher for Edele, Mark (2016).
  • I don't provide publishers for either of the journal articles
• Add access dates for online sources.
  • All of the sources were accessed via a permanent published version that is not subject to change.
• Add |authorlink= for Keller in Further reading.
  • Done
• If Calvocoressi, Porter, Goldhagen and Jones (refs 224, 225, 237 and 238) end up being used, they need to be incorporated into Works cited and have a similar footnote style with the rest of the article.--Catlemur (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
  • I realize this, but I am arguing for non-inclusion. (t · c) buidhe 06:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• "Of nearly six million that were captured, around 3 million died during their imprisonment." - Either 6 million and 3 million, or six million and three million per MOS:NUMERAL.
  • Fixed
• I think the first paragraph should mention that it all happened during World War II.
  • Done
• Since Hartmann's claim that it was "one of the greatest crimes in military history" is referenced and mentioned in the main body of the article, I reckon the citation in the lede is not needed.
  • Per MOS:CITELEAD, quotations should have a source even if they are in the lead. Also, without this citation a reader must visit the body to find out who said it.
• Do we have any info on how the German navy and air force treated prisoners?--Catlemur (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  Most of the sources don't address this question at all. Overmans has quite some detail about how the organization/structure worked for each of the branches, but very little on how prisoners are treated. All he says on the latter is that Luftwaffe use of forced labor on the eastern front didn't lead to the establishment of formal POW camps subordinated to the Luftwaffe command structure, and "For dealing with these POWs, who were not airmen but rather “labor” prisoners, the Luftwaffe had no treatment guidelines of its own; therefore, the relevant orders of the Field Army were applied here." I'm not sure if that's worth a mention. (t · c) buidhe 21:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

• File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-B21845, Sowjetische Kriegsgefangene im Lager (b).jpg should get proper attribution instead of "This is an enlarged and enhanced version of an existing Wikimedia photo". Maybe merge it with the original photo.--Catlemur (talk) 17:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

  Replaced, it looks like more pixels but not more information (t · c) buidhe 18:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

• "was rejected by Hitler several weeks after the start of the war.[26] On 30 March 1941, German dictator Adolf Hitler stated privately" → "was rejected by German dictator Adolf Hitler several weeks after the start of the war.[26] On 30 March 1941, Hitler stated privately"
  • Done
• Why is citation 60 located after the word Additionally and not after the full stop?
  • Moore mentions non Red Army personnel being registered as a cause of the discrepancy, but is not as specific and therefore does not support most of the rest of the sentence.
• Wikilink calories. Move Caucasian, Sabotage and death march wikilinks to first mention.
  • Done
• The Balts wikilink in the racial hierarchy section only refers to Latvians and Lithuanians but as far as I understand Estonians also received the same treatment as the former.
  • I think you are right but the source just says balts. I will look for another source. Edit : looked and can't find anything, every source mentions the difference in treatment but not the details why.
• Why is the pay the prisoners received measured in cents? Didn't the Germans use marks and pfennig?
  • Moore says "cents" but I checked his sources and confirmed that he means Reichsmarks
• "killings of Jews during July to October 1942." → "killings of Jews between July and October 1942."-Catlemur (talk) 09:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Done (t · c) buidhe 20:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe: I think the article in the form it is currently found in draftspace is good to go for GA. Once it is moved to mainspace and it is stable, I will be happy to promote it.--Catlemur (talk) 03:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Catlemur I think we're stable now, so as long as you're ok with the source added we should be good. (t · c) buidhe 01:57, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail: --Catlemur (talk) 10:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Drive-by comment

Hello, I wonder if the article title might be considered as part of the review. In the current title, "committed", in my view, doesn't add anything to "German atrocities against Soviet prisoners of war". I think a change is worth considering per WP:CONCISE. —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really happy with the article title. Among other things, it fails to capture the full scope of the article, which extends beyond "atrocities" to treatment of say captured Soviet Germans. However, article titles are not part of GA criteria to my understanding. (t · c) buidhe 08:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

un-explained removal of sourced content

There is no valid reason to remove these contents at all like you did here and you know it very well. @Buidhe.

These are well-sourced contents which are central to the Nazi motivation behind the genocide of Russian prisoners and completely within the scope of the page. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 23:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

1. I will not agree to citing the speeches of Adolf Hitler as it is a primary source and does not show due weight.
2. The other content added—such as mentioning killing of Soviet prisoners near the front line—is already covered in the article.

(t · c) buidhe 23:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

1. If so, I will be forced to conduct an RfC

2.

"Nazis viewed German people as the "Kulturträger" (transl. "culture-bearers") of Europe and advocated the initiation of a racial war against Eastern European natives, whom they regarded as "Slavic subhumans". Obsessed with the creation of a Germanic land empire, Hitler believed that the ideology of National Socialism fully equipped German soldiers with the capability to successfully carry out his planned conquests. Hitler envisioned the war in Eastern Europe as a campaign of annihilation, intending to culminate it with the decimation of the Russian state, its cities, and symbols of Russian culture in the event of a Nazi victory. From the outset of Operation Barbarossa, German soldiers ruthlessly carried out genocidal massacres of Russian captives."

This passage is not talking about the slaughter of russian prisoners, but rather the ideological motivations behind it. Which is exactly what is needed in the Background sub-section. @Buidhe Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 23:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You just cant attempt to censor contents regarding the anti-Slavic racism that motivated the campaign of Wehrmacht. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 23:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

References

• At most, you are privileging the opinion of a couple sources you like, over a larger number of sources that take a more nuanced perspective
• As well as duplicating parts of the article (for example, war of annihilation). Anti-Slavic racism is already mentioned as a factor, but I don't think it's accurate to suggest that it "motivated the campaign of the Wehrmacht". What is your source for this?
• Not to mention the failed verification issues with this text: the ushmm source doesn't mention "Russia", "Russian", "Kulturträger", etc. and it's the only potentially usable one here because we aren't allowed to do our own interpretation of Hitler speeches.

(t · c) buidhe 02:37, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: a block quote from Hitler is unnecessary, and the other concepts are already mentioned in the Background section. Side-note, anti-Slavic racism was deeply ingrained in the Wehrmacht; I believe it's covered in either The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality or The Myth of the Eastern Front, but I don't recall where specifically. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This source -- Shepherd, Ben H. (2016). Hitler's Soldiers: The German Army in the Third Reich. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0300179033. -- connects the fate of POWs during the winter of 1941/42 to anti-Slavism within the Wehrmacht:

The High Command's contempt for Slavic people, and its failure to plan adequately for the huger numbers of Soviet POWs taken by the Wehrmacht, had already stored up the ingredients for mass death in the prison camps. (p. 203)

Earlier in the book, on preparations for Barbarossa:

Anti-Slavism, and even more so, anti-Bolshevism remained pronounced within the senior officer corps. ... Further signifying how far they also subscribed to the invasion's ideological tenets, generals were issuing 'inspirational' orders for their own troops after they themselves had been informed of the invasion plan. For instance, Colonel General Erich Hoepner, commander of Army Group North's Panzer Group Four, declared on 2 May: "The war against Russia is an important chapter in the struggle for existence of the German nation. It is the old battle of Germanic against Slav peoples, of the defence of European culture against Muscovite-Asiatic inundation, and the repulse of Jewish-Bolshevism." (pp. 122-123)

Perhaps this could be used in the article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't dispute that the Wehrmacht held anti-slavic attitudes (although the latter source says anti-Bolshevism was more prominent) and that these were a major factor when it came to POWs. I think that's already covered in the article, but Shadowwarrior seems to be suggesting it was the main reason for invading the Soviet Union and I'm not so sure about that—I was under the impression that anti-communism and "lebensraum" were more important. There are definitely limits to racism as an explanatory factor—after all Hitler's slavic allies (Slovakia) were fighting alongside Germans against the Soviet Union. (t · c) buidhe 04:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The passage's focus was not anti-slavism. That passage was a carefully written summary of the Nazi regime's ideological and geo-political motivations behind it's slaughter of Russian prisoners. (which ofcourse would contain information regarding Nazi racial prejudice against Slavs) Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 07:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Look Buidhe, I didnt insert content out of thin air. All of these contents are entirely sourced. It is you who are peddling Idontlikeit-style arguments.

Buidhe: "At most, you are privileging the opinion of a couple sources you like, over a larger number of sources that take a more nuanced perspective"

I often find you claiming yourself to be an authority on academic sources in the talk pages, particularly regarding various confirmed genocides by several Western European states, only to deny the genocide or downplay its severity in your comments. Why are you claiming that these sources do not have a "nuanced perspective"? Infact, academic and encyclopaedic sources basically consider the Nazi genocide of Russian prisoners as the worst crime of Nazis after the Holocaust. It's alarming how you demand a "nuanced perspective" on this. Maybe you should remember that wikipedia is not censored.

First line in that passage:

"Nazis viewed German people as the "Kulturträger" (transl. "culture-bearers") of Europe and advocated the initiation of a racial war against Eastern European natives, whom they regarded as "Slavic subhumans". Obsessed with the creation of a Germanic land empire, Hitler believed that the ideology of National Socialism fully equipped German soldiers with the capability to successfully carry out his planned conquests."

Quotations from the sources:

QUOTE

"On this topic also Hitler had brooded long, and, following "the iron law of historical development", thought that he had found the answer. First of all, it was clear that the new power, whatever it was, must be a land-power. ... Similarly, his mind often dwelt on great roads, "the beginnings of every civilisation", the nerves which must animate a land-empire. He would imagine the roads of the past—Roman roads in Europe, Inca roads in Peru, and the roads of the future—German Reichsautobahnen "from Klagenfürt to Trondhjem and from Hamburg to the Crimea" ; and when he recollected, as he so often did, the exhilarating days of the Kampfzeit... Hitler asked himself, was that really inevitable? Were not the Germans the real Kulturträger, the culture-bearers of Europe? Was it not the Germans who, when the Roman Empire had been rotted inwardly by Jewish Christianity and a declining population, had conquered and inherited it? ... It is true, Germany had already failed to conquer Russia in the past; but the Germany that had failed was the byzantine, cosmopolitan, traditionalist, Jewridden Hohenzollern monarchy, and while "monarchies are at best able to keep conquests, it is by revolutionary powers that World-Empires are created"; ... How is a social revolution carried out? he asked... All revolutions depend for their success on the capture of power by an elite, and the formation of such an élite was the function of National Socialism: the Germans were to be the élite of Europe and to be themselves governed by a German elite, the Party. A Germanic people, thus mobilised, could easily, given the will to power and dynamic leadership, conquer an Empire."

END QUOTE

QUOTE

"German authorities viewed Soviet POWs as a particular threat, regarding them not only as Slavic subhumans but as part of the "Bolshevik menace" linked in Nazi ideology to the concept of a “Jewish conspiracy.”"

END QUOTE

Second line:

"Hitler envisioned the war in Eastern Europe as a campaign of annihilation, intending to culminate it with the decimation of the Russian state, its cities, and symbols of Russian culture in the event of a Nazi victory."

Quotations from the sources:

QUOTE

"For this war, the war which Hitler was planning, the war between Germany and Russia, between Hitler and Stalin, between ideology and ideology, was to be no mere dynastic or economic war, it was to be a war of life and death, empire or annihilation, deciding the fate of centuries; a war not against the past—that was already dead—but between two Titans disputing its inheritance. ... In the battle for empire quarter would be neither sought nor given. In the hour of his imagined triumph Hitler declared that Russia was to be utterly destroyed, Moscow and Leningrad to be levelled with the ground, and their names and record to be for ever blotted out of geography and history alike. ... Such was the crucial struggle, a struggle for the history of centuries, in which Hitler saw himself as the incarnation of historical change. He had seen this problem—seen it at least since 1919; he had created the form in which it now faced the world, demanding solution; by his heroic efforts he had made a German solution of it possible; and he naturally believed that only he could carry through "that Cyclopean task which the building of an Empire means for a single man". That meant that it must be carried through quickly, while Germany had the advantage, before Russia was ready, and, above all, while he himself was alive. "No one knows how long I shall live. Therefore", he had said in 1937, "let us have war now." It was his "irrevocable decision", he declared, "to solve the problem of German living-space" before 1945 at the latest."

END QUOTE

QUOTE

"... for Nazi Germany this attack was not an "ordinary" military operation. The war against the Soviet Union was a war of annihilation between German fascism and Soviet communism; a racial war between German "Aryans" and subhuman Slavs and Jews."

END QUOTE

third line:

"From the outset of Operation Barbarossa, German soldiers ruthlessly carried out genocidal massacres of Russian captives."

END QUOTE

"From the very beginning this war of annihilation against the Soviet Union included the killing of prisoners of war (POWs) on a massive scale."

END QUOTE

Its clear that all these contents are backed up by reliable sources. You have no grounds to censor it. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 07:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Please strike your inaccurate comments suggesting that I'm downplaying Nazi crimes. In case you hadn't noticed, I was the one who added the article text about this event being the second highest death toll after the Holocaust. (t · c) buidhe 16:40, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe

Strawman assertions. You havent given a response that is focused on the content. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Definition of "targeted group"

Hello!,

After reading the DYK of today, linked to this article, a doubt came to my mind.

The sentence in the article referred to in the DYK is:

"By this time, more Soviet prisoners of war had died than any other group targeted by the Nazis; only the European Jews would surpass this figure."

However, the definition of "targeted group" is unclear. For example, one could say that the group of "Soviet POWs" was a targeted group, but also the group of "Soviet people". Even if civilian and military deaths are typically classified separately, the "targeted group" definition does not need to follow this distinction.

To see this more clear, imagine that a member of the targeted group of "European Jews" belonged to the military, became a POW and was executed because was recognised as "European Jew". Following the methodology of the article, he would be targeted as "European Jew POW", but not as "European Jew".

Best! 151.29.146.46 (talk) 11:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

In the sources cited, the targeted group isn't necessarily divided on national lines. For example, some Soviet civilians were killed via massacres related to anti-partisan warfare, others in deliberate starvation policies (i.e. siege of Leningrad), and more from euthanasia policies. Since these three groups were all killed for different reasons, they would be counted separately according to the methodology of the cited source. (t · c) buidhe 13:07, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

References