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Archive 1Archive 2

Tyrol

There's an IP claiming people from Tyrol are Germans. Tyrol (state) is an state of Austria and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is a region of Italy. Those Austrians who settled Treze Tílias came from the Austrians state, because German Tyrol did not exist. They are not connected to Germany anymore. They're Austrians. Opinoso (talk) 16:15, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

So, Opinoso, German Swiss or Volga Germans aren't German? They should be counted, respectively, as Swiss and Russians? Ninguém (talk) 03:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you the IP user? Because I started this discussion to solve this problem with the one who was including Austrians as Germans. Moreover, assume good-faith and stop cheking my "last edits" posting unnecessary comments when you have nothing to do with this discussion. Remembers that following other users' edit is vandalism, and I noticed you are a Single Porpose Accounts enterely dedicated to the articles I recently edited. Be carefull. This kind of vandalism, you may be blocked once again. Opinoso (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm not the IP user.

And why do you assume I am not assuming good faith?

Who told you I "have nothing to do with this discussion"? Are you the owner of Wikipedia, to determine whether other editors may or may not post into articles Talk Pages?

Now, about the substance:

I actually agree that these people are of Austrian, not German, descent. But some kind of consistency is necessary. Your argument that they are "Austrians" because when they came to Brazil there was an Austrian State does not seem to hold, otherwise Volga Germans would have to be considered "Russian-Brazilians", because they came from an established Russian State. So you cannot simply reverse this other editor's contribution, calling it vandalism, just because you disagree with him. So, please, engage in civil discussion about the topic. What is the difference between those people in Treze Tílias and Volga Germans who also immigrated to Brazil and are always counted as "German-Brazilians", and never as "Russian-Brazilians"? Ninguém (talk) 03:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


I won't waste my time reading your out of place comments. With some many article at Wikipedia, you only appear at the same article I have recently edit. You are obviously following my edits. I'm contacting an administrator to resolve it. Opinoso (talk) 18:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

ROFL! This guy is so funny. First he flip-flops on the issue of Tyrol, he accuses me of vandalism, and now claims that I am connected with this other user. LOL! This is the guy who say Tyrolese are not German but Austrian, but Austria is listed in this article, so he flip-flops and makes up a claim that the are German-speaking people in Austria that are not Austrian (WTF?). Seriously, dude, all German-speaking people in Austria are Austrian. I told this guy that if he wanted to remove Treze Tilias, then remove Austria from the first paragraph in the immigration section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.173.225 (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

If an information in this article may be wrong, it does not allow you to include a new wrong information. These people from Treze Tílias came from Austria. I know people from this town, and they see themvelses as Austrians. They have nothing to do with German Brazilians.

You have to bring a source claiming these people from Austrian Tyrol are Germans. And stop reverting. If Austria is listed, it's probably referring to those earlier immigrants, who were not completly identified with a German state, so people who came from Austrian were integrated in other German-speaking communities. However, Treze Tílias was settled in the 1930, many decades after the formation of the German and Austrian states. Then, stop confusing the dates and their ethnic view. Opinoso (talk) 00:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Clearly again, you are flip-flopping. If you say Austrians are not Germans, THEN REMOVE AUSTRIA FROM THE ARTICLE INSTEAD OF MAKING UP STUFF! Stop the flip-flopping! First, you said that there are are people who speak German but not Austrian in Austria, now you claim its the earlier immigrants. You are full of it. 99.179.173.225 (talk) 23:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It is as simple as this - Historicly austrians have allways called themself germans. After world war two this has changed and most austrians now a days dont call themself germans anymore. The persons that migrated from austria prior to world war two should however be counted as germans since they are very likely to have considered themself germans. The reason for austrians not being called germans anymore is only political, if you talk about ethnicity they are germans just as much as bavarians are germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.11.59.91 (talk) 10:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Middle class

Sorry, but an information such as "Germans had established the first middle-class population of Brazil, in a country divided between slaves and their masters" absolutely needs to be sourced. Who said such thing? Ninguém (talk) 03:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources said. Not the "first middle class", but the first permanent middle class:

"Introduziu também outras grandes modificações. Até aquele momento, a classe média brasileira era insignificante e se concentrava nas cidades. Os colonos alemães acabaram formando uma classe de pequenos proprietários e artesãos livres em uma sociedade dividida entre senhores e escravos".[1]

"Esta, por sinal, foi a característica da imigração alemã, que, desse modo contribuiu para a constituição de uma classe média urbana e rural no país."[2]

"Alemães ajudaram a formar a classe média paulistana"[3]

To find reliable sources, you only need to google. Do not use Fact Tags before making a resource to know if the information is real or not. Maybe the person only forgot to include the source. Opinoso (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Those aren't reliable sources. Reliable source = peer-reviewed academic article, published book or primary sources such as statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.234.63 (talk) 07:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Most of 70% of the Southern Brazil pop. are ethnic germans?

There's a section - "Total Population" - "arguing" a number of 70%, or so, "ethnic germans" in the Southern Region of Brazil.

Although the number of people with german heritage in the region is significant, they're far less than 70%: Santa Catarina, the brazilian state with the the highest percentage of german-brazilians, has c. 40% of it's population having german ancestors (less than 3.5 million in a total of 6.2 million habitants). Combining with the other two states, which have less than 40%, would give, obviously, a percentage even lower.

I don't want to know why somebody would try to overestimate the number of "germans" living in the South, but is highly wrong.

--201.52.171.65 (talk) 08:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Reverted, it is a complete absurd. It is contradictory even with the already absurd figures the article used to have for the total German Brazilian population; according to that, there would be 10-20 million German Brazilians. But 70% of the Southern Region population means 19 million people, by for more thant the lower limit of the total guesstimate.
The only reliable data for the populations of immigrant origins is the 1998 PME survey, which points towards 2.6% of the Brazilian population being of German descent (some 5,000,000 people). All other figures are based on sheer speculation, when not outright lies.
It took me months of struggle to remove these absurds (here, and in Arab Brazilian, Spanish Brazilian, Italian Brazilian). Now all those ridiculous figures are all back - and I am not interested in wasting my time again to battle against such ignorance by trying to help an "encyclopaedia" that actually doesn't want to be helped. There is no quality control here; any stupidity can and will be reinserted, and nothing short from knowledgeable people performing slave labour for Wikipedia can minorate it. Ninguém (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned references in German Brazilian

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of German Brazilian's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "NYT":

  • From Secession: The Signs Say Somaliland, but the World Says Somalia
  • From Supermodel: Justine Elias (25 January 1998). "A Chic Heroine, but Not a Pretty Story". The New York Times. Retrieved 24 May 2010.
  • From Linz: Paul Hofmann (1987-04-05). "Letting Linz Castle cast a spell". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-12-02.
  • From Ethnic Germans: Bolivian Reforms Raise Anxiety on Mennonite Frontier, New York Times

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 14:32, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

German Brazilians- by VivaLatinAmerica

Opinoso, please stop changing the number of German Brazilians to 5 million. I have found many websites with far higher estimates. Even Fernando Henrique Cardoso sites a minimum of 10 million German Brazilians in his book The Acccidental President of Brazil. I say we settle on 5-10 million German Brazilians. Thanks -VivaLatinAmerica —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivalatinamerica (talk • contribs) 18:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Opinoso is right here. There is no possibility that there are 18 million people of German descent in Brazil. About 250,000 Germans immigrated to Brazil; they would have to have a superhuman prolificity to become 18 million in 2009.
This is interesting, since Opinoso has consistently edit-warred against me to keep the 18 million misinformation in the White Brazilian article.
Even more interesting, Vivalatinamerica's writing style is very similar to Opinoso's - both mangle the English language in a very similar way, and like to accuse others of having an ethnic agenda. I wonder if both post from the same computers, too. Ninguém (talk) 03:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
who the heck are you talking too? These comments make no sense. There are 12 million German brazilians. The 250.000 figure largely only recorded adult age males. So if you were married with 4 children, you might only show up as 1 immigrant.66.190.31.229 (talk) 14:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

5% of Brazilians are full descendants, but at least twice has German origins. http://www.dw.de/brasil-alem%C3%A3o-comemora-180-anos/a-1274817 "Já o jornalista e historiador Dieter Böhnke, de São Paulo, relativiza essa data, afirmando que os primeiros alemães desembarcaram em 1500, entre eles o cozinheiro de Pedro Álvares de Cabral. Segundo ele, mais de 10% da atual população brasileira tem pelo menos um antepassado alemão. Parece muito, mas é pouco, se comparado aos 43 milhões de norte-americanos (15,2% da população dos EUA) que dizem ter pelo menos um ascendente germânico, formando o maior grupo étnico do país. "No Brasil, esses números são bem menores, mas sem a sua contribuição é impossível entender a história, cultura e identidade brasileira", conclui"

How can 3 ​​million Germans descedents still speak the language in a total number of 5 million? The vast majority of German-Brazilians only speak Portuguese. Further proof that the number of descedents is much higher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theuser777 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistency in numbers

According to the article, "German Brazilians" make up 12% of the Brazilian population. And 90% are in the Southern Region. Now, the Brazilian population stands at about 190 million people. 12% of 190 million is more than 22 million people. But the Southern region only has some 28 million inhabitants. Is this article saying that more than 75% of the inhabitants of the Southern region are "German Brazilians"? If so, it is mistaken beyond any reckoning. Indeed, the article itself gives very different (and smaller) numbers when it discusses "German Brazilians" in Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, and Paraná. Ninguém (talk) 21:02, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Xuxa and Paula Toller

Xuxa and Paula Toller are not German Brazilians. Both are descendents from ethnic Italians from the current province of Trento (formerly Tirolo Meridionale-Welschtirol). Dantadd (talk) 21:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Nazis after WWII

Figures of German Brazilian

An user is trying to use sources that claim that the 2000 Brazilian census found 12 million people claiming German ancestry. The sources are wrong, based on the simple fact that Brazilian censuses DO NOT EVEN have question about ancestry.

Here we have a few sources (reliable) which found between 3.6 and 7.2 million people of German descent in Brazil, far from the 12 million fabricated figure:

According to another survey, 1999, sociologist, former president of the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics (IBGE), Simon Schwartzman, 3.6% of Brazilian respondents said they had German ancestry, a percentage that in a population of about 200 million Brazilians, represent 7.2 million descendants.[4];

In 1986, Born and Dickgiesser estimated at 3 million and 600 thousand the number of German descendants in Brazil.[5]

In 2004, Deutsche Welle cited the number of 5 million descendants of German Brazilians[6]

The 12 million figure is fake. Xuxo (talk) 14:24, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

This is being discussed in multiple places, but here are my comments so far:
(from User talk:Xuxo): The source you added refers to an an old article in Deutsche Welle that AFAIK was published before the 2000 census, and does not trump multiple reliable sources reporting a higher figure, so please stop changing the numbers. If you can provide definite proof (such as a link to the website of the Brazilian census authorities) that there was no question about ancestry in the 2000 census, start a discussion on the talk page of the article, and provide the links there, but do not remove content sourced to multiple reliable sources!
(from User talk:Iryna Harpy: The "12 million" is sourced to multiple reliable sources all claiming that it's based on the Brazilian census of 2000, while Xuxo's claim is based only on a link to a website quoting an old article from Deutsche Welle (an article that AFAIK predates the 2000 census) and makes no mention of what their figure of 5 million is based on.
And this discussion from User talk:Thomas.W also belongs here:
Oh please, you want me to prove that Brazilian censuses do not have question about ancestry? How can I prove something that does not even exist? This is illogical. You can Google it and check it by youself. I am Brazilian and the National census DO NOT ask about ancestry. The sources you postes are not telling the truth.
If you want sources, go to the Portuguese-language Wikipedia article about German immigration. There are many sources that put the figure between 5 and 7 million people. 12 million is a gross exaggeration. Xuxo (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Then why don't you post those sources on the talk page of the article so that we can see if they're reliable or not? Instead of just blindly reverting here, quoting a source that gives a number without telling anything about what it's based on, unlike the content you remove, which is sourced to multiple sources all saying that their number is based on the Brazilian census of 2000. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
I have no connection whatsoever to Brazil or Germany, but I object to replacing material sourced to multiple reliable sources, all saying that their numbers are based on the Brazilian census of 2000, with material sourced only to an old article with no mention of what the numbers are based on. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:35, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Since you insist in the fake figure, then bring us where in the official Brazilian censuses we can find the information that 12 million Brazilians claimed German ancestry. If you are able to show us this part of the censuses, then we keep the fake information. Xuxo (talk) 14:39, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
That's not how WP:BURDEN works, Xuxo. There are multiple RS attesting to 12 million, including teaching material sponsored by, and written in collaboration with, the Brazilian Embassy in London here on page 4. Per BURDEN, the onus is on you to demonstrate that your one secondary source is somehow truthier than a multitude of others. Like Tom, I have no personal stake in this statistic. I am under no obligation to find out the methodology used to arrive at this figure because it has been reiterated by RS numerous times, and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not an argument for ignoring RS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:34, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy, what are you talking about? I brought three sources that claimed the figures of German Brazilians between 3.6 million and 7.2 million. You removed them all from the article without any justification.
I'm not removing the 12 million source because "I do not like it". I removed them because both claim that Brazilian censuses counted the number of German Brazilians when actually Brazilian censuses do not even ask about ancestry.
Unless you guys can prove Brazilian censuses ask about ancestry (which you can't, since it doesnt) those sources must be removed. Xuxo (talk) 02:58, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
User:Grenzer22, look at this. Xuxo (talk) 03:03, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


As per WP:BURDEN "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution".
It is up to Thomas.W to show where in the 2000 Brazilian census it was found that 12 million Brazilians claimed German ancestry. Xuxo (talk) 03:09, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Ciro Damke's work has not been published for peer review: the WP:SPS article you cited only notes that he is working on his PhD under the a couple of supervisors. The Simon Schwartzman article was written in 1999: that is, prior the 2000 census. The most recent, hence most compelling, estimates are far later (particularly the Brazilian Embassy publication for teaching about Brazil in 2009). I have no interest in engaging in an edit war with you, or anyone else, based on earlier publications. Reiterating: BURDEN has been met. Challenging and removing later publications which say something else entirely different to what you believe to be the TRUTH is disruptive and duplicitous. No one is compelled to 'prove' these figures to be true by meeting your demands for how information was gleaned from the 2000 census because that is WP:OR. We don't analyse WP:PRIMARY sources; we derive our content from what reliable secondary sources have established. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:46, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh dear, you keep talking about the Brazilian census when I already explained it several times that it does not ask about ancestry. Brazilian censuses ask about race, not ancestry. The 2000 census is avaiable online in the [IBGE] website [7]. If you cannot read Portuguese, use Google Translator.

It is pathetic how you try to downplay Simon Schwartzman's work, when he was the President of IBGE, which is responsable for conducting the Brazilian census. But you think that an Al Jazeera source is more reliable than the work of the Brazilian scholar responsable for the census. This is ridiculous. And Ciro Damke did not made up the number, he was citing the works of other scholars. Damke is an importante Brazilian linguística who has many published works. You also removed the Deutsche Welle source, which is a German source published in Portuguese, which is more reliable than yours published in English.

You are removing the sources because you do not like them.

And it was Wikipedia that started the 12 million figure thing. An IP number was always including the information that the Brazilian census found the 12 million figure. Other people just copied it, including the Brazilian embassy in London, which, by the way, is not responsable for conducting censuses anywhere (this is not a task of embassies).

Everybody in Brazil is aware that Brazilian censuses do not ask about ancestry and a source that claimed that is wrong. You both are not even Brazilians and are trying to spread wrong information. You try to change my words as if I did not "like the source", which is unfair. I am just trying to keep correct information in the article. Xuxo (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

@Xuxo: We don't care what "everybody in Brazil" is aware of according to you, we go only by what reliable sources (per Wikipedia's rules) say. Period. Your sources are either too old or not reliable per the rules that apply here, on the English Wikipedia, or both, and do not trump the multiple reliable sources that say 12 million, as you have been told multiple times by now, by both me and Iryna Harpy, so stop. Continuing your disruption here, on multiple articles (German Brazilians, Germans and Brazilians), along the same lines as yesterday, is only going to get you blocked. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 14:00, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the poster Xuxo, the other sources he referred to should also be posted: "According to another survey, 1999, sociologist, former president of the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics (IBGE), Simon Schwartzman, 3.6% of Brazilian respondents said they had German ancestry, a percentage that in a population of about 200 million Brazilians, represent 7.2 million descendants.[14]; In 1986, Born and Dickgiesser estimated at 3 million and 600 thousand the number of German descendants in Brazil.[15]In 2004, Deutsche Welle cited the number of 5 million descendants of German Brazilians[16]"Grenzer22 (talk) 01:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I can also attest that, as Xuxo pointed out, the Brazilian census of 2000 did not ask about German ancestry. Often newspapers articles contain wrong or misleading information.Grenzer22 (talk) 15:06, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I have jumped across from the 'Germans' Talk page that also discusses this issue. I chanced on the discussion and my interest is mainly in doing the right thing: I have no connection with Brazil or Germany and I cannot read Portuguese. Despite the WP rules and way of doing things there does seem to be an uncomfortable problem here that needs to be dealt with. I am not familiar enough with the WP way to find this out myself but there must surely be a process that can stop a 'blindly follow the leader' approach. IMO that is what might be happening here with each source feeding off the other. I disagree with xuxo for removing the citations as he/she has done, without prior discussion, but I think he has a strong point in wanting to see where in the 2000 census it talks about 12m Germans. It does seem highly illogical and unfair to have to 'unprove' something that has been 'proved' by evidence that does not stack up - I do not think it is questioned that the 'reliable' sources that prove 12m Germans either give no citations of their own or they refer back to the 2000 census. If we can show that the 2000 census does not have that 12m data then surely all those reliable sources should be removed.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:55, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

@Roger 8 Roger: Please read WP:NOR. There is nothing to prove or disprove here. The 2009 teaching material is from the Brazilian government itself. Do you have some reason to believe that the Brazilian government is lying? That is how Wikipedia works. When it comes to WP:RS, we do 'follow the leader' (sic) in using the most current RS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
We have three users here who are not happy with those wrong sources, my Brazilian sources were removed based on silly arguments and replaced by foreign sources that tell an obvious lie about the Brazilian census. And two foreign users, who know nothing about Brazil, who cannot even read Portuguese and show us where in the 2000 census they asked about German ancestry, are trying to spread wrong information here. What a shame.
"Do you have some reason to believe that the Brazilian government is lying?" - what a pathetic argument. That silly touristic propaganda published in London is not a reliable source for demographics information. Governments also make mistakes. It is not about lying or not. The unreal 12 million figure was duplicated in many websites, after those IP numbers published it here, in Wikipedia, claiming it came from the census. I have been reverting those IPs for years but unfurtunetly their theory is now back to this article disguised as "multiple sources".
Iryna Harpy, you are doing a terrible work here, ignoring the advices of two Brazilian users about the fact that Brazilian census did not ask about German ancestry. You are using rules of Wikipedia to keep that wrong information and ignoring our attempts to have a rational discussion. If you know nothing about Brazilian topics, you should be smart enough to admit your lack of knowledge and ask someone else do deal with the situation. Xuxo (talk) 21:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
  • You're not doing yourself any favour by attacking editors who, unlike you, know the rules that apply here, on the English language Wikipedia, and follow those rules. Your sources do not trump the sources that say 12 million. Period. Whether you like it or not. And since this is the Internet where anyone can claim anything, we never, as in never ever, go by what people claim to personally know, like your constantly repeated phrases about knowing that no census in Brazil has included questions about ancestry. Those claims have no value whatsoever in this discussion, so do yourself a favour and stop repeating them. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:54, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Brazilian sources for German ancestry

Brazilian censuses do not ask about German ancestry, however there are many serious Brazilian sources that did found the figure of about 5 million people of German descent, which make clear that the 12 million figure is a gross exaggeration. I've added some of these Brazilian sources to the article, however Iryna Harpy removed them and replaced them by an Middle-Eastern, Al Jazeera source and another non-Brazilian newspaper or by a silly touristic propaganda published in London.

1- The work published in 1999 by Simon Schwartzman. Why is it reliable? Between 1994 and 1998 Schwartzman was president of the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics (IBGE), which is the organ responsable for conducting the Brazilian censuses. His work proves that the 2000 census did not ask about ethnic origin: [8]

"A Comissão consultiva do Censo do ano 2000 se reuniu no IBGE em Dezembro de 1998, e foi informada dos resultados desta pesquisa. Depois de amplo debate, os membros da Comissão resolveram, por maioria, recomendar ao IBGE que mantivesse no Censo do ano 2000 a pergunta sobre "cor ou raça" tal como ela tem sido aplicada até aqui, e não incluisse uma nova questão sobre origem". ("The Advisory Committee of the Census of 2000 met with IBGE in December 1998, and IBGE was informed of the results of this research. After extensive debate, the Committee members decided, by majority vote, to recommend to the IBGE to maintain in the Census of 2000 the question of "color or race" as it has been applied so far, and not to include a new question about origin").

Why would Simon Schwartzman lie about the census? He made it clear that the 2000 census only asked about "color and race" and not about "origin".

What did Schwartzman found? He interviewd over 30 million Brazilians about their ethnic ancestry and only 3.6% claimed to be of German ancestry. In a population of 200 million Brazilian, that figure would be 7.2 million, not 12 million.

2- The work by Ciro Damke.[9] Why is it reliable? Damke is an important Brazilian linguist who has many published works, including about German language spoken in Brazil.

What did Damke found: his work cites two German linguists who made a great resource about German speakers in Brazil: in 1986, Born and Dickgiesser estimated at 3 million and 600 thousand the number of German descendants in Brazil. Born is professor doctor [Joachim Born http://www.staff.uni-giessen.de/born/] and Dickgiesser is Sylvia Dickgiesser, both of whom have many works published.

It is impossible for the German-descended population to have grown from 3.6 million in 1986 to 12 million only 14 years latter, in 2000. Between 1991 and 2000, Brazilian population only grew 1.63 per cent[10] and German immigration to Brazil in the 1990s was quite insignificant. The figure of German-descendants would be around 5 million in 2000, which is close to what Schwartzman found in 1999.

3-In 2004, Deutsche Welle cited the number of 5 million descendants of Germans in Brazil [11]. Why is it reliable? Is comes from a a German newspaper and it is writen in Portuguese for the Brazilian public. The figure of 5 million is nearly the same found by Schwartzman in 1999 and by Joachim Born and Sylvia Dickgiesser in 1986.

4-In the book A Imagem Do Terceiro Reich Na Revista Do Globo. 1933-1945, published by Brazilian historian Maltez Dalmáz,[12] it was estimated that, in the 1930s, there were 1 million Germans and descendants in Brazil. Between 1920 and 2000, Brazilian population grew 5.6 times[13] so, again, in the year 2000 the population of German descent would be around 5 million, not 12 million.

5-In September 2016, the Institute of Applied Economic Research, an organ of the Brazilian government, launched an interesting research that found out that only 3.3% of Brazilians have a Germanic last name (page 18 [14]). Why is it reliable? It comes from the Brazilian government and it analyzed the names of nearly 47 million Brazilians. The 3.3% figure is nearly the same found by Schwartzman back in 1999 (Schwartzman found 3.6% of Brazilians claiming German ancestry). By the way, having a Germanic last name does not equal to German ancestry, since it can also be Austrian, Swiss, English among others, but since most Germanic immigrants in Brazil were Germans, it give us an idea about the actual size of the German-descended population in Brazil and that it is far from being 12 million. 3.3% in a population of 200 million Brazilians would be 7 million, not 12 million.

Those are five realiable Brazilian sources about the size of the German-descended population. They all lead to the same figure: around 5 million, a little more or a little less. Not 12 million at all. Xuxo (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Proof that Brazilian census did not ask about German ancestry

In the website of IBGE one can find all the resources made by this agency, which is responsable for conducting the Brazilian census. Here is [the list of the research they made http://www.ibge.gov.br/home/estatistica/pesquisas/sintese.php#O]. There is nothing about German ancestry. The part about demography is found at "Síntese de Indicadores Sociais (População, Indicadores Sociais)". One can read there:

"Elabora e analisa indicadores da população brasileira, construídos a partir de dados do IBGE, do Censo Demográfico e da Pesquisa Nacional por Amostra de Domicílios, e de outras instituições, abrangendo temas como características da população, educação, crianças e adolescentes, família, trabalho e rendimento, saúde, cor ou raça, idosos, saneamento e habitação, entre outros". ("Prepares and analyzes indicators of the population, constructed from IBGE data, the Census and National Sample Survey of Households, and other institutions, covering topics such as population characteristics, education, children and adolescents, family, work and income, health, color or race, elderly, sanitation and housing, among others".)

The 2000 census can be read here. There is nothing about German ancestry.

Another source also proves that the 2000 census did not ask about German ancestry. [15] Simon Schwartzman, who was president of the IBGE agency from 1994 to 1998 was clear:

"A Comissão consultiva do Censo do ano 2000 se reuniu no IBGE em Dezembro de 1998, e foi informada dos resultados desta pesquisa. Depois de amplo debate, os membros da Comissão resolveram, por maioria, recomendar ao IBGE que mantivesse no Censo do ano 2000 a pergunta sobre "cor ou raça" tal como ela tem sido aplicada até aqui, e não incluisse uma nova questão sobre origem". ("The Advisory Committee of the Census of 2000 met with IBGE in December 1998, and IBGE was informed of the results of this research. After extensive debate, the Committee members decided, by majority vote, to recommend to the IBGE to maintain in the Census of 2000 the question of "color or race" as it has been applied so far, and not to include a new question about origin"). Xuxo (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Well done xuxo. I think that should put an end to this matter, except perhaps to reflect on why it was ever necessary for xuxo to spend so much time 'proving' his case. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 16:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
  • @Xuxo: I don't know if you're deliberately trying to muddy the waters or if you simply don't know better, but the first link is definitely not any proof for there not having been questions about ancestry in the 2000 census, it has in fact nothing whatsoever to do with the 2000 census. The header at the top of the page says, translated to English, "This page shows the list of current research released by IBGE", meaning that it's simply a list of the most recent (current) research that IBGE (the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics) has published/released, and the 2000 census is definitely not current statistics. Link #2 is to a huge site with tonnes of pdf-files that will take weeks to go through, but I'll see what I can do, and #3 only says that a committee decided to recommend that IBGE not include it, not that they didn't include it. And as you wrote yourself Schwartzman left the IBGE two years before the census was made, and thus wasn't involved in it... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 17:27, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Lol You need to learn Portuguese before getting involved on Brazilian topics. Correntes in Portuguese is not the same as "current" in English. What a shame.
Anyway, I am not wasting my time. I'd like to ask volunteer User:WebCite what can be done now. Xuxo (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
@Xuxo: You're not only wasting your own time, your wasting everyone else's time too. It's your job to find proof that it wasn't included, as you claim (such as a definite list of which questions were asked), not mine. I took a quick look at the IBGE Census 2000 site, and found that the census results are split over hundreds of Excel-files, plus a large number of PDF-files (I downloaded one of the PDF-files, and that single file alone is more than 500 pages...). I have a fairly good knowledge of Spanish, and can read Portuguese reasonably well because of that, but the time I can spend on this is limited, just like the time other editors here can spend on this is. And even if it's off topic, how would you translate "Esta página apresenta a relação das pesquisas correntes divulgadas pelo IBGE"" into English? Hint: "balança corrente" in Portuguese means "current account" in English, just like balança de capital means capital account in English... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 18:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
@Thomas.W: Hi, the proof you are asking for can be found here: https://www.ibge.gov.br/censo/questionarios.shtm if you click on Questionário Básico ("basic form") and Questionário da Amostra ("sample form" - used in between 10-20% of all households) at the top of the page you can view and download PDF files with forms used in the 2000 census. As any Portuguese speaker can confirm, the basic form didn't ask any questions regarding ethnicity. The sample form only asked about the color or race of the resident (in 4.08 - with the options being white, black, yellow, brown and indigenous) and his/her nationality (in 4.19 - with the options being born Brazilian, naturalized Brazilian and foreigner). There was no question about the resident's ancestry, so the 12 million figure for people of German ancestry in Brazil is clearly not based on the 2000 census and it's source can't be verified. I am not sure why the author of the 2009 publication published by the Brazilian Embassy in London made such claim, but my guess is that he simply found it somewhere on the internet and since it wasn't doubleckecked and the material was published by an official institution it gave more credibility to this claim - an example of circular reporting. --Ayazid (talk) 09:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
What on earth are all of these WP:OR scenarios about? Your guess is that they found it on the internet? Of course, the Brazilian embassy just gets a middle high school work experience kid in to write teaching materials for the British education system (and any other English language educators who would care to use them anywhere in the world)!!?? Are you being serious? Where is their any claim that the figures were taken from the Brazilian census? Governments have comprehensive statistical divisions which may use methodologies you haven't even thought of. It's an official position, and from a WP:RS. Please stop chasing around trying to prove that it isn't an RS because you don't think that it could have been derived from any form of census. This has long since become WP:POINTy, so please drop it. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Dear Iryna, I didn't participate in this discussion before and I think that your aggressive and condescending tone is totally uncalled for. Second, the article itself (and the included links) claims that 12 million figure is based on the 2000 Brazilian census. However, as the official documents published by the Brazilian government show no question about ancestry was asked in that census, so this information is clearly false and the article should be corrected. What more evidence you need to prove that the census didn't ask anything about ancestry, if the actual census forms with the used questions are not enough? I am confused. Third, I didn't say that the material in question was written by a "middle high school work experience kid", but there is absolutely no proof that the information about 12 milions of German descendants in Brazil is based on some "comprehensive statistical divisions" which are kept by the Brazilian government. This is just your speculation, since the author didn't include any specific source for this claim. On the page 5, there is a link to the website of the Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estatística (IBGE - Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics), which is supposed to include the latest population figures for Brazil, but it's not working. I checked their website and there is a page with information about the ethno-racial characteristics of the Brazilian population, based on a 2008 survey taken in six Brazilian states. According to the survey, only 3,0% of the respondents in the state Rio Grande do Sul and 0,1% in the state Mato Grosso declared their ethnicity as German. In the other states, the number was zero and there is no futher information regarding the number of people of German descent in the results. In the light of these facts, I do believe that the author of that teaching material found the 12 million figure for people of German descent on the internet and simply didn't check its credibility. I do realize that the material in question was published by an agency of the Brazilian government, but that doesn't make it an peer-reviewed academic study. The material refers to the IBGE website, but in their website there is no data supporting the 12 million figure. Wouldn't be better to send an email to the IBGE asking them for clarification or is that teaching material a supreme and authoritative evidence, which nothing can trump? --Ayazid (talk) 15:38, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Ayazid, Iryna is just a foreigner who knows nothing about Brazil trying to keep WRONG information in this article. I don't know what she gets trying to inflate the real figure of people of German descent in Brazil, but it seems it is an obssession for her to keep this untrue figure, despite all the evidences that the figure is wrong. Xuxo (talk) 00:42, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Ayazid, maybe you can bring a serious administrator to this discussion and article, so that they can correct the wrong figure. I tried to bring an user to help, but he or she ignored the discussion, maybe he is a friend of Iryna. Xuxo (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

@Xuxo: 1. Read WP:SOAP again. 2. WP:NPA: I'm getting fed up with your ongoing WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:55, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, the 2000 census did not ask for German ancestry. Most estimates for German Brazilians, as Xuxo pointed out, give a lower figure. Xuxo has made some valid points here, and frankly I do not think they should be ignored.Grenzer22 (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

I think the census is no longer the issue. The problem is that reliable sources are quoting the 12 million figure so that basic WP principle of relying on reliable citations needs to be overridden. Wikipedia rules are flexible enough to allow that to happen. This would be more productive than getting embroiled in tit for tat squabble about the survey. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:15, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

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