Talk:German Americans

Second to Hispanics

The introduction states that German Americans' "size of 50 million stands second to the 55 million Hispanics in the United States". This comparison suggests that German Americans and Hispanics are comparable groups, but surely the latter include people from a number of different national backgrounds, unlike the former? I haven't been able to check all of the sources cited, but the first lists German as the largest ancestry group, not listing Hispanic as an option. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:49, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

And here is 2014 data from the US Census Bureau. They don't appear to consider Hispanic an ancestry group in the same way they do German. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:01, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

"German" is a single nationality. "Hispanic" is a group of many disparate ethnicities and nationalities. The two are not comparable. "Hispanic" is a higher level grouping. It's like comparing the number of "apples", a single type of fruit, and "vegetables" (of every type). The group which includes German Americans that is analogous to Hispanic Americans would be European Americans, or maybe, more narrowly, "Americans of Northern European (Germanic) Descent", including Danes, Swedes, Norse, English, Icelanders, etc.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 10:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I'll have a go at redrafting the sentence. Given that ethnicity is a subjective concept, and some might argue that Hispanics do constitute an ethnic group in the US, I will make it clear that we're not making the judgement about who is and isn't an ethnic group by outsourcing that judgement to the source. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

This is ridiculous propaganda, Germany has always been a relatively wealthy country, and so for every American primarily of German descent there are a thousand, or more, of Polish descent, obviously! When Poles, and other nationalities from relatively poor central European countries, came to America they claimed to be of German descent because they realised they would be respected better if they did. I seriously doubt if German-Americans make up more than 0.0001% of the American population and probably number less than 50,000 in total. God you American are so disgustingly deluded about your ethnic origins. Grow up!!! There are more Americans of Albanian or Maltese origin than German! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.88.237 (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

You should maybe look into how diverse Germans are genetically from one another, and how distinct their regional identities (formerly ethnic identities) were before the Pan-Germanism of the 1800s/1900s, before making ridiculous claims about Germans and Hispanics (which are actually fairly comparable groups).

Everything you're saying about Hispanics could equally be applied to Germans, who historically descended from a wide variety of distinct peoples (which is hardly surprising considering Germany is slapbang in the middle of Europe, representing a genetic crossroads for the continent).

I'd love for you to elaborate on what exactly you mean by ""German" is a single nationality". Even the NSDAP seemed to widely acknowledge that Germans were a 'multiracial people' and most of their racial theory seems to classify Germans into several different 'racial subgroups'.

Modern archaeogenetics has shown that Germans have a very broad PCA spread, usually the only people broader than them on European PCAs are Italians. That means lots of mixing. That means lots of divergent ancestries. That means heterogeneity.

Hispanics are united by the Spanish language they speak. Germans are united by the German language they speak. That's effectively it (and it's the same for the vast majority of 'ethnic groups' around the world).

Modern Americans are united in pretending they have some affiliation and connection with these language groups they can't actually speak the language of through elaborate racial fantasies and selective, idealized self-proclaimed ancestries (more often than not only partial, at best). 92.4.18.111 (talk) 23:31, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

German Jews as German Americans

the Reliable sources consider German Jews to be Jewish Americans: 1) Michael V. Uschan, German Americans (2006) Page 15 https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0836873106 states: "From 1830 to the 1880s, another group fleeing religious persecution— Jews— swelled the numbers of German immigrants to the United States." 2) John Morton Blum - V was for Victory: Politics and American Culture During World War II (1976) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0156936283 states: "During World War I, Jews in Germany remained loyal to the cause of the Fatherland, while German-Americans — Jews and gentiles, citizens and aliens — stood divided in their feelings about United States foreign policy." 3) Hans W. Eberhard, The History of the German Americans in Early Los Angeles City (2009) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1441564888 states: "The Hebrew Benevolent Society The Los Angeles Hebrew Benevolent Society was founded by a German Jew, Joseph Newmark.35 Joseph Newmark came to Los Angeles in 1854 after having spent many years in Jewish religious work." 4) Rafael Medoff, Jewish Americans and Political Participation (2002) https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1576073149 states: "The Midwest was also alluring because many non-Jewish German immigrants were settling there....Jews had already become quite acculturated in Germany, and they felt comfortable among German- Americans." Rjensen (talk) 02:45, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for actually discussing. From On German American and American Jewish History – "German American history is confined largely to Catholics and Lutherans, and American Jews from Germany require a separate historiography" (my emphasis). Perhaps the article American Jews from Germany or equivalent should be created. As noted in one of my edit summaries, our other articles on hyphenated Americans focus on ethnicity not nationality (e.g., Dutch Americans, French Americans contain no discussions of Dutch Jews or French Jews). There are already several in-depth articles on Jewish-Americans, (Category:American Jews), even to the point of histories by city. 106.68.149.57 (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

the German immigration includes lots of subgroups. Besides Catholics and Lutherans there were secular Germans (the 48ers), atheists (the Marxists), other Protestants (Reformed, Methodist) and sects such as the Amish and Mennonites. The German Jews spoke German and were fully assimilated in German culture, as the RS report. As for your quote you distorted it and misinterpreted it: "Seemingly German American history is confined largely to Catholics and Lutherans..." The author says that is a misunderstanding because "Jews identified as Germans and interacted extensively with Germany and non-Jewish Germans" He emphasizes that German Jews were an integral part of the German-American community, which is the exact opposite of your misreading. Rjensen (talk) 03:01, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

This is not about people who just arrived from Germany: about Germans by nationality, but about those who consider themselves to be a part of German ethnic group abroad of Germany, despite the fact that they were born in the USA and they are Americans by nationality. This is firstly, and secondly, the " German Jews" are a completly culrurally separate ethnic group of Semitic origin who spoke Yiddish - the Jewish dialect of the German language, and not the dialects spoken by ethnic Germans. In English, Jewish ethnicity and religion are one and the same word, so such confusion https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gikkee (talk • contribs) 00:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The contention that we can neatly separate nationality & ethnicity to me is absurd. First, it denies that ethnic Jews from Germany had a German nationality. Second, it ignores intermarriage. Third, why would anyone who spoke a version of German & who or whose ancestors hailed from the fatherland not be German? IMHO, to deny German Jews who have immigrated to America their German heritage is anti-Semitic, just as the Nazis denied the German heritage of German Jews. Peaceray (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, someone who is ethno-religiously Jewish can at the same time be ethno-linguistically mixed German and Yid, ethno-racially African, and ethno-nationally American. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

And for me it is absurd when someone prefers political correctness and excessive freedom of interpretation of the term to scientific accuracy. I see no reason to argue, empiric facts still remain facts regardless of your personal opinion:

1. Jews are not only a religious group (majority of americans don't even know that)

2. Anyone who calls himself Jewish in 99.9% of cases will not consider himself German, Irish or African American, but obviously a Jew

3. Judaism it is ethnic religion of Jews.

4. Jews are part of the Semitic race, same as Arabs and Berbers: therefore a person of partial Jewish descent is a mixed / dual race.

Nuff said.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gikkee (talk • contribs) 01:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

1. Who are you to dictate to יעקעס (Yekkes) what to identify with? Or teach them they can't consider themselves Jews as well as ethnic Germans? (Perhaps you don't perceive יעקעס as independent individuals, do you?) 2. There is a branch of the Afroasiatic language family that is known as the Semitic languages, but there is no such thing as a Semitic people or an Arabid race. Your "empiric facts" have been outdated for a century. (Don't ask, I know the Book of Genesis/בראשית and am aware of the story of Shem, Ham, and Japheth whose descendants became known as the Semites, Hamites, and Japhetites.) Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 04:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't dictate anything to anyone, but just stating the facts - your wishful thinking and passive-aggresive bollocks are passing by. There exists clear defenition of what ethnicity is: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ethnic_group. It is a collective society with common characteristics and ancestry - The majority of German Jews as an ethnicity that lived in the form of a closed ethno-religious diaspora until the 19th century has no significant connection with the Native Germans so Jews saved their identity, except for borrowing the language for their own dialect - Yiddish. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews. About ethnic Germans https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Germans#Origins — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gikkee (talk • contribs) 21:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

German Jews around 1900 didn't speak Yiddish. The only ones who knew Yiddish where those with parents who recently came from Eastern Europe. There used to be something like "Western-Yiddish" which died out with Jewish emancipation around 1800. Actually there was a strong rivalry between Yekkes and Yiddish speaking immigrants, comparable to the conflict between Ashkenazi (European) and Mizrahi (Oriental) Jews today in Israel. Reform Judaism has it's roots in Germany, intermarriage was very common and many just identified as members of a "Mosaic religion" while playing down "ethincity", e.g. Einstein. I traveled a lot and everytime I met offsprings of exiled Yekkes I was stunned to see how much they clung to German culture. I also saw Joseph Weizenbaum speaking life and he told us the first time he experienced Anti-Semitism in Berlin was when he heard his Yekke family talking about eastern European immigrants. And even if you reduced this to genetics - which is racist - you'd be surprised about the scientifically proven central European influx in Ashkenazi's gene pool, and that's already >80% of European Judaism. Ashkenazi literally means German. The question of identity is a personal one, drawing a line between Jews and Germans means helping the racists from both side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.250.79.119 (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

an assimilation section --deleted and revised

There was a section on German language usage that assumed language is the only test of "assimilation" into American culture. I revised it to make clear that only language usage is covered --not the much broader question of assimilation. ("assimilation" into the US economy, US military, religion, intermarriage etc is a big topic). However four mysterious IP editors have repeatedly erased the original and revised section with no discussion here. user:179.6.199.197 user:91.236.35.189 user:95.76.3.133 and user:172.78.41.232 None of them has ever made a contribution to this page or related pages, so it looks suspicious. Meanwhile four actual editors have reversed their blanking-- myself, user:Favonian User:LiliCharlie, and user:Indyguy Finally user:Favonian has protected the page against what clearly is " Persistent disruptive editing". Rjensen (talk) 07:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

What are these lines for?

In the section about Religion of German Americans there are these two lines. -

"Some 19th-century immigrants, especially the "Forty-Eighters", were secular, rejecting formal religion. About 250,000 German Jews had arrived by the 1870s, and they sponsored reform synagogues in many small cities across the country. About two million Central and Eastern European Jews arrived from the 1880s to 1924, bringing more traditional religious practices.[137]

Does this mean, that all Jews are considered to be German immigrants? - Or would it not better to include these lines into the article American Jews? - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/American_Jews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:C148:9E00:11EA:CAC5:27B5:CD91 (talk) 15:46, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

German Jews belong here and in the Jewish article. People have multiple identities (like the 48ers and Amish did). Rjensen (talk) 12:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Nazism

I've reverted an edit to this article that had changed "a smaller group of newer postwar arrivals had developed a vocal if not impolitic interest in the rebuilding process in Germany under Nazism" to "a smaller group of newer postwar arrivals had developed a vocal if not impolitic interest in the rebuilding process in Germany under National Socialism". National Socialism is a redirect to Nazism and the latter is the more commonly used name for that movement in English. If there's an argument for the change, it should now be made here at Talk:Nazism. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

If there's an argument for the change, it should be made on Talk:Nazism. Discussing it on case-by-case basis only serves intentional WP:FRINGE WP:POVPUSH-ing attempts. –Vipz (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Comment amended. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:20, 3 May 2023 (UTC)