Talk:Gerard (archbishop of York)

Gerard (archbishop of York) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

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Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 21, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
May 19, 2011	Peer review	Reviewed
August 23, 2011	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured article

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Another title for this article

At some point he should probably be moved to something other than this title. His entry on the DNB states he was known as "Gerard", with no nicknames at all. Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1066-1300: Volume 6 - York also just calls him Gerard, and has no other names listed in the footnotes. Not a high priority, but probably something that should be done at some point. I'd do it, but moving articles is something I flub consistantly. I'll let someone else flub it up! Ealdgyth | Talk 22:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unless someone objects, I will move this article to it's redirect shortly. Gerard, Archbishop of York is a better fit for the article, as that is the highest ranked title he held. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA review

An informative article that is obviously very close to the GA standard, but there are a few things that I think need to be fixed before it's listed, most if not all of them pretty minor:

"Gerard (died 21 May 1108) was an English clergyman who eventually became Archbishop of York and Lord Chancellor of England." What is the "eventually" trying to say?

"He was the nephew of two other clergymen, he became a member of the clergy at Rouen ...". It seems to me that there is just a liitle too much detail in the lead, like this comment about him being a nephew.

"The legate secured Rufus' recognition of Urban, but refused to consider the deposition of Anselm, and at the king's court at Windsor, Rufus consented to Anselm receiving the pallium". Reads very awkwardly, and I'm not sure what this means. Did the legate refuse to consider the matter? If Rufus could just give the pallium to whoever he wanted, then why was the legate asked anyway? Wouldn't is be simpler to say something like "Rufus appointed Anselm Archbishop of Canterbury"?

"Gerard then worked to craft a compromise in the Investiture Crisis, and by 1107, King Henry and Anselm had reached an agreement. Eventually Gerard agreed to a compromise on the matter of obedience to Anselm. King Henry proposed that Anselm accept a witnessed oath ...". Starting the second sentence with the word "eventually" makes me think that the 1107 agreement is not the same as the eventual agreement.

"After 1105 Gerard slowly began to support the Gregorian reforms". I think that Gregorian reforms needs to be explained.

"He also encouraged at least one of his clergy to study Hebrew,and some people considered his ownership of a Hebrew psalter to be disturbing". This Hebrew link needs to be explained. Why is it significant that he encouraged someone to study Hebrew, and why would anyone find that disturbing?

"Is there no information on where Gerard might have been born? What was his link to Rouen? "Originally a precentor in Rouen cathedral ...". From when?

"He was associated with the author of the Quadripartitus and the Leges Henrici Primi." It's not clear who this "he" being referred to is, Gerard or William of Malmesbury? What's significant about those two works? What does "associated" mean?

As is customary on these occasions, I'm placing this article on hold. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

thanks Malleus. All those look pretty easy to deal with, if I don't get to them tomorrow, I'll get them done when I get home from the road Monday night or Tuesday. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've clarified them all. Let me know if there are other concerns, or if I broke something seriously... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This has obviously got to be listed as a GA, which I'll do now. Only one slight nit-picking point left from me. The lead describes Gerard as a "royal chancellor", yet later he's described as "Lord Chancellor". Were there other kinds of royal chancellors other than Lord Chancellors? Anyway, nice work. It's amazing what you early history buffs can conjure out of almost nothing in terms of available sources. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the exact title is somewhat changable in this time frame. Technically, the title Lord Chancellor wasn't used for quite a while after this time, but historians often use it for this time frame anyway. Royal chancellor basically equals lord chancellor. There were other chancellors, but not other royal ones. So i clarified it. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and thank you for the compliment. Not sure he's going to FAC or not, we'll see what else I uncover. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Walter de Coventre made it to FA, so no reason why Gerard can't as well. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. Orlady (talk) 13:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gerard (Archbishop of York) → Gerard (bishop) — Relisted to consider Gerard of York. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC) This is the simplest dab title according to the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) D B D 22:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are almost assuredly other "Gerards" out there that were bishops, while I haven't hit one yet, it's not against the rules to use "Archbishop of York" either, especially for a common name such as Gerard. If you really insist, I'm not going to scream, but it seems kinda silly (plus is really cluttering up my watchlist with moves...) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) actually states For prelates where only a forename is available, it is not the business of Wikipedia to invent surnames. There are a number of natural disambiguating methods. For example if the prelate is strongly associated with a particular see or place, then "of {place}" may be used, as with Augustine of Canterbury or Clement of Dunblane. Shouldn't it therefore be Gerard of York? Skinsmoke (talk) 14:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

that's one option, but it's not as common as say "Augustine of Canterbury" in the sources. Common name also plays in here, and he's just not as associated with York as Augustine is with Canterbury. I greatly prefer the disambiguate in parenthesis for this person. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:01, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about Gerard (archbishop)? Since, by this time, archbishop is a distinct rank, it's just as simple as the target, and there should be fewer Archbishops Gerard wandering around. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of other Archbishop Gerards out there (currently, there is Archbishop of Grouard-McLennan [Alberta] and the Archbishop of Maseru). Gerard of York might be acceptable, but I'm not certain he is sufficiently associated. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Both of the reverend gentlemen have surnames, which we would use if we had articles on them. Is there a medieval example? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, this man can not be at Gerard (Archbishop of York) or Gerard (archbishop) because WP:NCWC rules against the capital A and against using abp as a dab when they are actually just bishops (according to strict rank). So, to avoid inventing a surname, he should be at Gerard (bishop) or Gerard (archbishop of York). The former is the broader dab, and is available, since the two mentioned ABps and any other Bishops Gerald will most likely have surnames... D B D 00:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To me, "Gerard (bishop)" isn't enough - if there's no surname (and the forename is a common one), there ought to be something equivalent to a surname to pin him down, which in this case apparently has to be "of York". If he's not commonly called "Gerard of York", then I would be for the second of the suggestions just made: Gerard (archbishop of York) (though I don't really know why the clergy conventions proscribe the capital here).--Kotniski (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we use "Gerard of York" we're in danger of "making up" a name, as that's not a common name for him. Handbook of British Chronology gives just plain "Gerard" for him. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on behalf of Gerard of Toul, Gerard of Florennes and the neglected Archbishop of Mainz, Gerhard II von Eppstein. Srnec (talk) 00:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've raised at the clergy naming page WT:NCWC the matter of whether the word "Archbishop" should be capitalized in such titles (I think it should be, but the guideline currently implies not to).--Kotniski (talk) 05:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Q

The lead claims Gerard possibly attended William I's death, the article body says he was there for sure. Which is it, internet. Ceoil 20:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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