Talk:Zakarid Armenia

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 18:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

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Zakarid Armenia → Zakarids – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH

• "Zakarid Armenia" -Llc 3
• "Zakarid dynasty" -Llc 2
• Armenian + Zakarids -Llc 25

-- Takabeg (talk) 08:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The article is full of biased information and discriminates everything Georgian

EtienneDolet

First of all i don't understand why template history of Georgia shouldn't be here.. Zakarid Armenia was part of Georgian Kingdom and all it's history is directly related to the history of Georgia.. then as i see the biggest object of debate between us is the nationality of Zakarids. there are 4 or 5 links in references about that but in fact only one of them says the zakarids were armenians with kurdish origins, it's from geni.com. i can't see any sources under the text which proves that. There is a historical work of Georgian Historian Levan Sanikidze called "The Swords Without The Scabbards" in which the author says that the Mkhargrzeli family was in the beggining Gregorian, then diophisite christian.. their mother tongue was Georgian and their mentality was Georgian too. you can see that chapter from his book on this link https://burusi.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/%E1%83%9A%E1%83%94%E1%83%95%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C-%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98%E1%83%99%E1%83%98%E1%83%AB%E1%83%94-%E1%83%AC%E1%83%98%E1%83%92%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98-%E1%83%97%E1%83%90%E1%83%9B/ .. it can be written in the references under article too.. also i have his first edition book in which all this info is written on the page 530. that's all what i wanted to say, SORRY FOR MY POOR ENGLISH IrakliGuna (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Zakarid Armenia isn't on the History of Georgia template, unlike the History of Armenia template. The state was never called "Georgia" either. Sanikidze seems to be a playwright, not a credible historian. Geni.com isn't a reliable source because anyone can edit it. All noble families typically have foreign ancestry. The Bagratonis are an Armenian family by origin but that isn't mentioned in every sentence about them. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone has messed up the page links - when I go to Zakarid Armenia and then move to its talk page I get to here, but when I click back to the article I instead get to Zakarids-Mkhargrzeli which has its own talk page. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Just aligned the talk-page with the article. Cheers, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to do anything in particular at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 03:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

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Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia → Zakarid Armenia – This article was named Zakarid Armenia until it was recently changed without discussion. Considering Zakarid Armenia was only in union with the Kingdom of Georgia for 25 years but Mongol vassals for over a century, the new title is very inaccurate. I added a academic source by Chahin confirming that Zakarid Armenia is the correct name. In addition, Zakarid Armenia is by far a much more WP:COMMONNAME

• "Zakarid Armenia" - 2,450 results
• "Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia" - 41 results

Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

"Zakarid Armenia" is generalized and modern term of different feudal entinities ruled by Mkhargrdzeli dynasty. It implies as if Zakarid Armenia existed as a separate entinty. In reallity during Tamar's reign different members of Mkhargrdzeli dynasty separately gained land holdings and directly payed homage to Georgian monarch.Georgiano (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Information of Armenian feudals under Mongol rule can be moved to Mongol Armenia— Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgiano (talk • contribs)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not attested

The object historically have not existed at all, attested nowhere before 20th c. Both term and the object are established in modern times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abkhazian1 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now. 1)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so: 2)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely. 3)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it. 4)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin.}SonofJacob (talk) 10:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

You might want to double-check the sources. One of the two sources says that they’re “[…] Armenianized Kurdish family of Zakharids, […]” (The Making of the Georgian Nation, Suny, 1994, pp.39 [1]). In other words, by the time relevant to this article (or by the time those two individuals earned their positions), they already considered themselves to be Armenian. What I don’t see in any of the sources is your claim that they were “Georgianized.” Many dynasties originate in foreign lands or are of foreign ethnicities (the Bagrationis themselves are an example of this). The distant origin or background of the dynasty is irrelevant in this case. — [ kentronhayastan ] 00:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. Though I do really know that Ivane changed his faith to Georgian Diaphysite Christianity. It is written in the "Kartlis tskhovreba" as well. So that may not be applied to Zakare, but for Ivane it can. SonofJacob (talk) 13:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Edit

Both of the sources added in this edit mention as Armenian, there is no Georgian general. Quotes:

• "Ani was for the first time conquered by the Georgians in 1124, under David II, who laid the foundation of the power of the Georgian kings; the town was given as a fief to the Armenian family of the Zakarids"
• "Later, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Armenian house of the Zachariads (Mkhargrdzeli) ruled in northern Armenia at Ani, Lor'i, Kars, and Dvin under the Georgian aegis".

How does these make the general "Armenian-Georgian"? Sources repeatably Armenian house of Zacharids (which the general belongs to), and only mention Georgia when talking about the Georgian kings and conquest. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Edit Warring

@LeontinaVarlamonva Please stop edit warring this article and moving it without discussion, per Wikipedia:Requested moves if you change an article title and it gets reverted back you MUST started a page move request and seek consensus for controversial moves. Your edits introduce poorly sourced original research that misinterprets the sources and goes against what the vast majority of sources on this topic says, you also deleted sourced content to fit your POV. This is unacceptable, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and revert your changes. TagaworShah (talk) 04:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

As I say before, you can add content in addition to mine but without deleting source like Chahin, which has been here all along but was deleted only when it no longer suited incorrect characterization of Armenia during this period as a separate country. Not only I don't do original research but this article was already original research when I got here because it uses country template and make Armenia seem like totally different entity from Kingdom of Georgia, which is not supported and at best very controversial. Whatever Armenia was at that time, it was not a separate entity and does not merit country template. This seems like one of those imaginary things that come into existence in modern times because for obvious reasons nobody likes when their country was part of some other country. But reality should be accepted.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 01:39, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

The Chahin source does not support your POV, you are misconstruing it. Zakarid Armenia was an independent Armenian principality under Georgian Suzerainty, it had its own government and administrative systems, that is not controversial and is supported by a consensus among reliable sources which you conveniently deleted. Boris Grekov describes this well in his influential 1953 “ Essays on the history of the USSR. The period of feudalism IX-XV centuries”:

“…the political power of the Zakarids was formed and strengthened, heading the restored Armenian statehood in indigenous Armenia.

The territory subject to the Zakarids was an Armenian state, vassal to the then reigning house of the Georgian Bagratids; The Zakharid government had the right to court and collect taxes. The main responsibility of the Armenian government to the Georgian government was to provide it with military militia during the war.”

This is the consensus among reliable sources and you cannot change that just because you Wikipedia:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, especially without seeking consensus on the talk page, you are edit warring, you cannot revert a page move that was already reverted for an undiscussed move, you must start a discussion and seek consensus, there are rules to Wikipedia. TagaworShah (talk) 04:17, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Chahin makes very clear: "The most influential lords of north-eastern Armenia were members of the Zakarian family. Hence, the first half of the thirteenth century is known as the Zakarid Period...Although of Armenian foundation, members of that family held eminent positions among the Georgian lords." Why was this deleted entirely? Put it back where it was. --LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Chahin makes only passing mention of Zakarid Armenia, there are other more comprehensive sources available that are much better suited for the article. In addition, he only mentions a fraction of the time period of Zakarid Armenia which lasted all the way into the mid 14th century according to Seta Dadoyan: “Ani oscillated between being ruled by Georgians, Shaddädids and Seljugs, all equally violent, until the rise of the Georgian-Armenian Zakarid dynasty at Shirak (1201-C. 1350).” Seta also states that the Zakarids formed a semi-independent state in Armenia. Likewise, Florence Hodous states that “ Vassal states such as the Uyghur kingdom of Qocho (until 1335), Zakarid Armenia, Cilicia, Georgia, and Korea similarly owed the empire taxes, troops, and loyalty, but were otherwise left to govern themselves.” Mentioning Zakarid Armenia as a separate entity from Georgia during Mongol rule. Dashdondog also mentions the Zakarid principality as a separate entity, just because it the Zakarids were vassals does not mean they did not have their own state of Armenia, they just had to provide military support to Georgia and later to the Mongols but maintained local independence. TagaworShah (talk) 19:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Just because one set of people say this doesn't mean everything else should should be erased, does it? Complete deletion of Zakarid "Period" from the article and source that refers to them as being among Georgian lords makes everything look much more uniform and unquestionable than it is in reality.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

What they say does not contradict Chahin, except for the timing of the Zakarid period of Armenia which Chahin applies too narrow of a lense on. Him saying a period of time is the “Zakarid period” does not contradict anything in this article, nor does them being considered lords in the Georgian court, I don’t see what specific issue you have in terms of content. TagaworShah (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Chahin is a published former professor who specialize in this subject, so Im not here to debate if his "lens" is too narrow or wide or the rest of his work. That is for his peers to decide and analyze, not for wikipedia to do original research on his work. His reference belongs here and if you truly believe it doesn't contract what you say, you would not have deleted it.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 19:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Nobody said Chahin is unreliable, i’ve used his book for many other articles, however, the other authors here are also reliable and speak of a much larger period which corresponds to the historical sources. I deleted Chahin’s source because it wasn’t adding anything new and there are already enough citations in the lead, he only makes passing mention of things that are already covered in the other sources and his timing of the zakarid period contradicts the consensus among other sources. TagaworShah (talk) 19:53, 5 November 2023 (UTC)