Talk:Georgia O'Keeffe/Archive 5

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O'Keeffe and Feminism: Further Reading

Two major works on O'Keeffe and feminism are missing from the list of "Further Reading." They are:

Kathleen Pyle, Modernism and the Feminine Voice: O'Keeffe and the Women of the Stieglitz Circle (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2007)

Linda Grasso, Georgia O'Keeffe and Twentieth-Century Feminism (Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 2017)

Can someone add these books to the list?

These volumes could be helpful in strengthening the discussion of O'Keeffe and feminism in the main article. She was much more involved and supportive than the article seems to suggest; it is misleading to just quote O'Keeffe's late-life statements about feminism and being a woman artist, comments that have been popular among the male art critics establishment. The historical record shows a more distinct and positive involvement. The role of Anita Pollitzer in O'Keeffe's relation to feminism could also be cited. Profgjay (talk) 22:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done, and when looking up the isbn numbers on amazon, I found out (but had forgotten) that I alreay bought one of these books. I'll have to check that out! Update: I found it, how fun!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding, "it is misleading to just quote O'Keeffe's late-life statements about feminism and being a woman artist, comments that have been popular among the male art critics establishment. The historical record shows a more distinct and positive involvement. The role of Anita Pollitzer in O'Keeffe's relation to feminism could also be cited." - what is the purpose for this information?–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that it is important to ground our understanding of O'Keeffe's relation to feminism in an historical context. Having a section titled "Feminist Movement (1970s)" suggests this was the only period in which feminism was important for O'Keeffe, which is wrong. That section should be retitled "O'Keeffe, Woman's Suffrage, and Feminism" or some such. Here's how I would begin it:

Women’s Movement and Feminism

In Equal Under the Sky: Georgia O’Keeffe and Twentieth Century Feminism, Linda M. Grasso documents O’Keeffe’s life-long involvement in feminism and women’s issues. O’Keeffe came of age as a woman and an artist in the 1910s, at the height of the women’s suffrage movement and the intense artistic ferment of “modernism.” Grasso notes that “Modernists championed rupture, innovation, and daring in art forms, styles, and perspectives,” and that O’Keeffe “first created herself as an artist when feminism and modernism were interlinked” (3). As early as 1915 O’Keeffe is reading books and articles on women’s suffrage and cultural politics with enthusiasm, such as Floyd Dell’s Women as World Builders: Studies in Modern Feminism. (23) There was much talk in this era about “the New Woman,” liberated from Victorian strictures and mores and pursuing her own life and education and self-expression freely. O’Keeffe was in active dialogue with her suffragist friend Anita Pollitzer, with whom she exchanged letters on the subject. Pollitzer, in fact, was the first person to introduce Alfred Stieglitz to O’Keeffe’s art work (52). She was also reading Charlotte Perkins Gilman and Olive Schreiner, among others, alongside the radical magazine The Masses, and lecturing on modernist dancer Isadora Duncan. In a debate with Michael Gold in 1930, O’Keeffe said she was “interested in the oppression of women of all classes” (4). Gross writes: “She sustained an affiliation with the National Woman’s Party and made public statements about gender discrimination and women’s rights in interviews, speeches, letters, and articles into the 1970s.” (104). But O’Keeffe resisted being categorized as a “woman artist” since this could mean the imposition of “preconceived notions about feminine sensibilities and styles.” That was what she saw, apparently, and rejected in the reductive interpretation of her flower paintings as female genitalia. Women’s bodies, however, were for O’Keeffe vital subjects for art from a female perspective, as shown by her nude watercolors of herself done in the early years and in the nude photographs she produced of herself with Stieglitz. Profgjay (talk) 23:40, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I added the content that was cited - i.e., I didn't add "But O'Keeffe resisted..."

Profgjay Sorry to ping you so many times. Do you have the page number(s) for this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I assumed that the numbers that you used were from the Georgia O'Keeffe article. There was a blog page used for one of the sources, so I just changed it to {{citation needed}} and put {{better source}} on the blog citation.

The heading is renamed without "O'Keeffe" - since the entire article is about O'Keeffe. See MOS:SECTIONSTYLE.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

If you could give me a source for the uncited info, I will add that to the article. Please also clarify whether or not the numbers refer to the sources in the GO article. Thanks. Great addition!–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

All the citations here are page numbers from the Linda Grasso book cited at the start. I'm used to academic citation practice where we put page numbers in parentheses. I wasn't sure the best way to handle this according to Wikipedia standards. Can you correct for me? Then I'll study how you did it. Profgjay (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Profgjay Okay, cool.  Done I used the combination Bibliography / sfn format, with the long citation for Grasso in the References section and {{sfn}} for the short citations with individual page numbers as in WP:CITESHORT of WP:Citing sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a "citation needed" here after the mention of the Floyd Dell book. O'Keeffe's reading of it is discussed in the Grasso book. Profgjay (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You've added a note #3 at the end of the quotation from Grasso that ends "interlinked." This was simply a reference to page 3 in the Grasso book. Now it has become a note referencing an encyclopedia article. Not sure what happened here. I don't know what you mean by a reference to a "blog page." I didn't use one.

Profgjay Yes, that's fixed now, since you said that the numbers were page numbers from Grasso's book - and not the citation numbers from this article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks SO MUCH for your help and expertise! Profgjay (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

My pleasure!–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:31, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Treatment by the NM academic art community

There's an interesting story about how the academic art community in NM ignored O'Keefe for around 35 years or so, finally recognizing her contributions in 1966 with a solo exhibition. The backstory is that she tried approaching them several times to do work and they snubbed her. When they finally did acknowledge her, she was gracious, humble, and modest, and showed no signs of ill will in public. I don't think this appears in the current article (apologies if I missed it). Viriditas (talk) 00:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

She had relationships with authors and artists within the Santa Fe and Taos art colonies. Just to help me understand better, who more specifically didn't let her in (e.g., male leaders of the Taos Society of Artists, museums, universities)?

And, sure, that's something that could be added to the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Robinson (1999)[1989], p. 547:

Another facet of her professional life involved the complicated and infelicitous relationship that existed between O'Keeffe and the Museum of New Mexico in Santa Fe. In 1936 there had been a proposal that O’Keeffe paint a mural for the museum. A letter to the museum’s president by a curator described O’Keeffe as "a strange sort of freak with big hands," and the president had responded with distaste to the notion. Hostility had figured thereafter in museum responses to O'Keeffe, and as one museum official said wryly, "It seemed as though every time O’Keeffe and the museum got together, something went wrong. One time we even spelled her name wrong in a publication: something that happens all over the country, but which shouldn’t happen in Santa Fe."

In 1980, a more positive relationship was established. O’Keeffe sent the museum a check for $100,000, and discussions got under way regarding a loan exhibition of O’Keeffe’s work. Still, the negotiations were seen by some as suspect. A verbal arrangement stipulated that the money be used to purchase sculpture by Hamilton and to contribute toward the purchase price of a painting by O'Keeffe, Summer Days. In the resulting debate the negotiations ground to a halt, and later O’Keeffe removed the museum from her will.

Drohojowska-Philp (2005)[2004], pp. 490-491:

O'Keeffe, seventy-eight, still fought the mounting years. She was always busy. The outset of 1964 saw her travel to New York to discuss business with Bry. On her return, she stopped in Houston and Fort Worth to discuss plans for a forthcoming retrospective at the Houston Museum of Art, then visited the Amon Carter Museum of Western Art. She had to be back in Albuquerque by February to receive an honorary degree presented by the University of New Mexico.

Although she had been honored by major museum shows around the country, the museums of New Mexico were slow to catch on. When O’Keeffe began coming to the region in the thirties, her offer to paint a mural for the Museum of Fine Arts in Santa Fe was spurned by the director, Dr. Edgar Hewitt. Hewitt, an archaeologist, had been befriended by Robert Henri, the influential member of The Eight in New York and a teacher at the Art Students League when O’Keeffe had been a student. Henri had come to Santa Fe in 1916, 1917, and 1922 and advised Hewett to establish a liberal exhibition policy at the museum. Hewitt later said that the museum practiced an open door policy. "Its alcoves have been open to the most eminent painter or sculptor, to the unknown beginner." Rebecca Strand was given a show there in 1934. But that "open door" was closed to O'Keeffe, and she had long resented the exclusion.

Hewitt’s oversight had become an embarrassment by 1962, when O’Keeffe was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In March 1964, the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque took the first step in healing the relationship with the state’s most famous artist by awarding O’Keeffe an honorary doctorate. Wearing her mortarboard and gown, O'Keeffe was truly pleased by the honor, if only as vindication. Instead of talking about her adopted state, however, she euphorically recalled New York, describing the place as "so vast and so sparkling...you go up in the world, you go high." She later told a local reporter that her life had been divided into three separate stages: before, during, and after Stieglitz.

There's more of this kind of thing, of course, but those are the two incidents unique to NM. Viriditas (talk) 02:32, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I am trying to sort out how much of this is encyclopedic content. One thing that hits home is "Although she had been honored by major museum shows around the country, the museums of New Mexico were slow to catch on."

And... that negotations fell-through for a mural for the Museum of Fine Arts in Santa Fe and other projects in New Mexico. In 1964, O'Keeffe was awarded an honorary degree from the the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, which signaled (new-found?) respect for her works.

It would be great to hear from other watchers of the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, I leave it in your hands to do with as you wish. I will be working on other things. Viriditas (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Ellsworth Kelly

@CaroleHenson: Georgia O'Keeffe was a big fan of Ellsworth Kelly. She described her fondness for his work as if it were her own. I think they were both searching for the same thing in their art. We should probably work that into the article. Viriditas (talk) 09:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Viriditas, that sounds good. I see that Kelly is mentioned in a number of books about O'Keeffe. I trust you have an idea of what to use and where the information should go (e.g., abstraction, personal life, etc.)–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Since you're the lead on this article, I'll leave it up to you. Looks like it should be added to the personal life section based on the current structure, but whatever you think is fine. I'll add the material here when I get a chance. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay, sure. I will keep an eye out for the content.

By the way, I am just a temporary contributor / shephard who weighs in from time-to-time. There have been many others who step-in occasionally. You don't need to treat me like someone who has ownership of content.

In other words, if you're making a change to the article, like adding info about Kelly, you can post a comment on this talk page and allow anyone to weigh-in who has comments or suggestions.

To anyone that may be reading this, if you someone has a conflict of interest or are a close contributor, they can type up the information and request the edit on the talk page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

As an FYI, I watch 4,534 Wikipedia pages.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your modesty, but you've either created or are the primary contributor of 90% of the articles and content related to this subject. Doesn't sound very temporary to me! Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, perhaps it's clearer to say that I am a fluid contributor whose efforts wax and wane, Viriditas. I made just 8 edits between 2017 and 2023, and they were just minor fixes to someone's changes or reverting improper edits.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I get the impression that you are misreading me. I'm lauding your efforts and dedication to the topic, not criticizing them. Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very nice of you Viriditas. I can get pretty involved in subjects that interest me and I try to do that without seeming to own the content. It's a line I try not to cross.

I will be focusing on some other articles for a bit, but if you need something, let me know.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)