Talk:Genocide/Archive 9

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Incomplete information in history section

Buidhe, this is what Häussler, Stucki & Veracini 2022, pp. 212–213 say. Bolding mine:

Later, the settlers often became the state, either by acquiring self-governing capacities through territorial or colonial devolution, or by declaring their independence outright. Their state is typically aggressively expansionist but remains different from an imperial state, even if the practice of frontier massacres is eventually discontinued. Rather than managing subjected heterogeneity like imperial states do, the settler state aims to constitute demographic homogeneity by the violent application of a variety of administrative and assimilatory means against surviving indigenous peoples. Cultural genocide, a most violent practice, characterizes the operation of settler states.

This is what you put in the article. Again bolding mine:

Unlike traditional empires, settler colonialism—particularly common in the overseas empires that resulted from European colonialism—are characterized by militarized populations of settlers in remote areas beyond effective state control. Rather than labor or economic surplus, the settlers want to acquire land from indigenous people

When you say "particularly common in the overseas empires", it sounds like you are just talking about empires such as British Empire or French Empire. However, genocides did happen in settler colonies such as in United States and Australia. We have additional quotes above in European colonialism section in the talk page as well. I find the wording currently in the article misleading or incomplete. Bogazicili (talk) 11:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Bogazicili, I'm trying to follow the sources. If you take a look at the ones I cited, you will find that the distinction that you keep bringing up—between empires ruled from overseas and those colonies that became independent under the control of settlers—may be mentioned, but is not emphasized. Rather, they stress the difference between types of imperialism and colonialism, with settler colonialism more prone to genocide than classical colonialism. (t · c) buidhe 13:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello Buidhe. I have to say I'm very concerned about coverage of indigenous genocides in English-language Wikipedia, especially after seeing this journal article [1].

For example, United States and Australia articles seem to make no mention of this, which is rather shocking. Australia is supposed to be FA-class. That is a massive oversight.

Now, returning to this article, I don't think your edits are helping. I disagree with your view about the source. It defines the areas very clearly:

It is only with what James Belich has called the global ‘settler revolution’ of the nineteenth century that settlers typically became respectable, even though not always: the transport and the industrial revolutions had made the temperate prairies of North America and Australia, parts of South Africa, and the southernmost parts of South America...

And other sources also emphasize this. The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. 2, there are 3 chapters under Settler Colonialism:

• Ch 1 The Centrality of Dispossession’: Native American Genocide and Settler Colonialism
• Ch 2 Very British Genocide: Acknowledgement of Indigenous Destruction in the Founding of Australia and New Zealand
• Ch 3 Settler Genocides of San Peoples of Southern Africa.

Jones, Adam (2023). Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction. 136-137:

Three ideological tenets stand out as justifying and facilitating European5 conquest,“pacification,” and “settlement.” The first, most prominent in the British realm (especially the United States, Canada, and Australasia), was a legal-utilitarian justification, according to which native peoples had no right to territories they inhabited, owing to their “failure” to exploit them adequately. As Benjamin Madley
...
Ironically, this modernizing ideology also resulted in the migration – as convicts or refugees from want, political persecution, and famine – of millions of “surplus” Europeans to the New World. In Australia and the United States, among other locations, these settlers would become key, often semi-autonomous instruments of genocide against indigenous peoples. Brendan Lindsay described the dynamic of “California’s Native American Genocide” in a way that echoes many others worldwide

You are keeping the wording too vague, just mentioning European colonialism and empires, which is unnecessary given that the article is only 3,704 words. Please spell out what settler colonialism is and what areas it effected. At least give examples. All above sources gives examples of North America/United States and Australia, not sure why these are omitted. Bogazicili (talk) 15:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

They aren't exactly ommitted although I agree there could be more on them... In the genocide studies section we note that "The genocides of indigenous peoples as part of European colonialism, including in colonial states such as United States and Australia, were initially not recognized as a form of genocide."

I'm aware. I added that clarification. However this is the history section. The current wording makes it sound like only empires like British Empire did colonial genocides, whereas it happened under countries like United States and Australia too. The current wording is unnecessarily vague given the short size of the article. Bogazicili (talk) 15:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for adding that clarification, I agree that the current section doesn't do a great job of summarizing all of the dedicated pages on history Genocides in history, Genocides in history (before World War I), Genocides in history (World War I through World War II), Genocides in history (1946 to 1999), and Genocides in history (21st century) but thats also a really hard job Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to summarize those articles, which have serious content and sourcing problems. I'm trying to build a better article here based on overviews of genocide in general. (t · c) buidhe 15:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Jones, Adam (2023). Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction is a good overview source and it is much more comprehensive in its coverage of history, with an entire chapter on indigenous genocides. The current history section is not comprehensive Bogazicili (talk) 16:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The section is a work in progress. But it cannot go into the same level of detail as more specific articles. (t · c) buidhe 02:17, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thats completely backwards. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:53, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So your opinion is that I can't work on improving this article until I strip out and rewrite 6 other ones? Or else we should align this article to be like others that have known issues, rather than write an article without those issues. I don't think Wikipedia works that way. (t · c) buidhe 02:15, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

It depends on what part of the article, that section is supposed to be a summary of another article... If the section is not a summary of another article you have much more freedom, but if it is then any significant edits should be made to the daughter page first. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the coverage should be better now, with more examples. Bogazicili (talk) 20:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The Haussler et al source spends several pages discussing settler colonialism and genocide while only about a paragraph on the transition from British to independent rule - because that transition is not so important to the actual fate of indigenous people. I rest my case that Bogazicili 's focus on overseas empires vs their successors is misplaced. (t · c) buidhe 15:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That answer doesn't make sense. The Haussler et al is one source. It is much more prominent in Jones, Adam (2023). Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction and The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. 2. I rest my case that using one source while ignoring others is against WP:NPOV. Bogazicili (talk) 16:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The important factor for genocide in Australia and other colonies that became independent is the arrival of European settlers, not the independence from the original metropole such as the British Empire. Although I do not have access to all of jones 2023 (do you?) I've never seen any source, including those you've quoted, that say otherwise so I'm not sure why we're still having this argument. Some that you quoted above support my argument and not yours. (t · c) buidhe 02:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The section is history. Not factors for genocide. So the fact that it happened after establishment of independent countries is how it historically happened. Your wording is therefore misleading. And the section is currently incomprehensive in terms of timeline.

And yes, I have access to all of Jones 2023. I'll be adding more from it shortly. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The sources I've seen say that genocides occurred both before and after the transition to independent rule so I'm not sure why you keep emphasizig this transition. If it's not relevant to the occurrence of genocides (either as a cause, method, effect, or some other thing directly relevant to actual genocides), I do not see any reason to emphasize this point, since the article has to be very concise and economical given the information it has to cover. I think the history section is a pretty good length as it is, although it can be improved I would oppose a dramatic expansion per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Readers looking for detailed information about history should go to one of the genocides in history articles instead. (t · c) buidhe 14:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not emphasizing it. I'm just trying to give a good summary for history. It's part of history that it happened both before and after. I'm not sure why you keep trying to omit this. What is the reason?

History section is right now pretty incomplete. I also didn't like how you summarized the part after WW2 for example, it seems a bit simplistic. Bogazicili (talk) 14:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I think there is room for improvement, and I don't oppose a change in wording, but I think we have to be clear than when it comes to colonialism the sources emphasize type of colonialism versus the distinction between overseas empires and their successors. If the relative importance is not clear to the reader we aren't doing our job. (t · c) buidhe 14:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said many times. Your wording implies that genocides were only done by empires such as the British Empire. This is misleading. It's also incomplete. This is the history section. Right now your wording is not doing its job. Bogazicili (talk) 14:29, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

buidhe, unlike what I thought you implied, establishment of independent states does seem to be a factor in frontier genocides. Bolding is mine

The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies, p. 334:

The emergence of a racially defined American republic in North America added a level of ideological intensity to colonial patterns of frontier violence and the Anglo-American quest for territorial and economic aggrandizement. Standing in the path of a republican settler colonial empire that stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific were the Native American communities of the south, southwest, the Great Plains, and the west. American explorers, ranchers, settlers, and gold-seekers took to the United States’ frontiers of settlement their hopes and dreams for a better life, and a moral repugnance for indigenous peoples that expressed itself, in the words of one recent scholar, as the ‘beastilization’ of Native Americans.

And places such as United States seem to be a core area of settler colonialism. So they should be used as examples when introducing the term in history section:

The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies, p. 341:

As Richard Cole Harris observes, the ‘geographical core’ of settler colonialism—to which I include the United States—was ‘about the displacement of people from their land and its repossession by others’.87 This basic analytical premise inspired what Ben Kiernan refers to as the ‘selective threat of genocide’ against Native Americans, a threat that resulted in various forms of organized and spontaneous acts of violence since the seventeenth century was driven by the intent to exterminate the American ‘natives’.

We also have the quotes from above.

The Oxford Handbook of Genocide Studies, p. 349:

Colonial genocide has even become a widely used distinct category. However, it is important to note that genocidal violence in most of colonial Africa differs in some considerable ways from genocides committed in North American and Australian settler colonies: European colonization of Africa did not inevitably lead to the expulsion and/or annihilation of the indigenous populations. There are two reasons for this difference: whereas colonization preceded the formation of bureaucratic colonial states in America and Australia, European settlement followed the establishment of colonial administration in Africa. As a result, the colonial states in the British New World territories were almost unlimitedly dominated by settlers’ interests. In Africa, by contrast, the settlers’ influence and ability to fight and expel the Africans on their own was more restricted because the colonial states were still weak and their power relied on the cooperation with indigenous chiefs.

The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. 2. Introduction Chapter, p. 10:

This volume offers, besides other imperial expansionist cases such as those from early modern China and Japan, empirical evidence for Barta’s observation across five centuries of European settler colonial history. In Part I, ‘Settler Colonialism’, three chapters collectively survey the colonial histories of the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Southern Africa from the sixteenth to the early twentieth centuries. These chapters bring the many differences between these colonies to light, but it is what connects them that determines their histories as genocidal: the goal of imposing a new settler society on Indigenous lands. Further, these chapters articulate how genocide has shaped the nationalist historiographies of settler colonies.

This is a new one quote. The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Vol. 2. Introduction Chapter, p. 7:

The European inflicted genocides of traditional landowners that began in the late-fifteenth-century Americas were rationalised by an evolving sense of religious righteousness, commercial drive, cultural superiority and racial supremacy that persisted into the modern era.

The first paragraph covers the period until the early modern period. The last paragraph starts from WW1. The second paragraph should cover the period in between. Given this, and considering all of the quotes above, the following should be the first sentence in the second paragraph in History section:

Beginning in the 15th century, European colonialism led to genocides of indigenous peoples. This has continued under settler colonies, such as United States and Australia, between 16th and 20th centuries.

buidhe, you are welcome to adapt the rest of the paragraph with this first sentence. Or I can write the entire paragraph myself. I think we can also give some non-European examples. I think explaining the difference between empires and settler colonialism is also fine. If you disagree with all of these, we can proceed to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Bogazicili (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Have made the changes. Bogazicili (talk) 16:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The wording is incorrect because it implies that a settler colony only becomes such when it declares independence from the metropole. In fact, a settler colony is defined by the invasion of foreign settlers, not by the political status of the territory. This wrong assumption means you have misinterpreted several of the above passages to support your viewpoint when they do no such thing. (t · c) buidhe 04:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Leading photo of 'reprisal firing squad'

Isn't the new lead photo (a Nazi firing squad shooting Polish 'hostages' as reprisal for other Poles attacking a German policeman) an example of a "violent and coercive form of rule that aim to change behavior rather than destroy groups", which we say is excluded, rather than genocide itself. I acknowledge that Nazi policy 'in the East' was consciously and systematically genocidal, but is this photo an example of that? Pincrete (talk) 06:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The previous picture was, as acknowledged by the caption, not typical of genocides because it is more common historically for men to be killed than the women and children in the picture. The new picture was chosen to illustrate the security rationale elaborated in the causes section that is behind most or all genocides. I do think that it qualifies because it is an execution of hostages for actions committed by other Poles, which is the same logic explained in the causes section. If we accept that the Nazi policy in occupied Poland and the Soviet Union was genocidal, a large part of the deaths inflicted by the occupier were in the course of German anti-partisan operations in World War II and the main victims were civilians not armed partisans (as in the picture).

At the same time, I am open to suggestion other images that may be considered typical of genocides in general. (t · c) buidhe 07:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I am curious as to why you replaced the image that references the Cambodian genocide with this image (the Nazi firing squad)? I'm still learning the ropes of Wikipedia inclusion/exclusion criteria. MSTwitch666 (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not set on a particular image, but I believe that the Cambodian skulls image is not the best choice for the lead image for several reasons :

1. The image reinforces the common misconception that genocide is just about mass killing
2. It is a museum /memorialized form of genocide (see Stone et al 2022), rather than showing genocide in progress
3. The picture does nothing to illuminate the most commonly discussed aspects of genocide, namely what it is? Why and how does it happen?

(t · c) buidhe 23:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)