Talk:Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Content

Requested moved from Spanish people. See discusion here: Talk:Spanish_people#Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_peninsula --Infinauta (talk) 15:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The previous Lead

I have changed the previous Lead, and I will explain why:

1) The previous Lead was unreadable, literally. It was broken. There is no point in keeping it in that state. That is why I have changed it quickly of my own free will (WP: BOLD), basically because the Lead was in a dysfunctional state.

2) The Canary Islands don't belong to the Iberian Peninsula. The Canary Islands are an offshore archipelago in the Atlantic Ocean that are much closer to the African continent than to Iberia. Obviously, because of this, the Canarian genetics are significantly different from that of Iberia. If the genetics of Ceuta, Melilla, Azores, Madeira are not included in the article, it makes sense not to include that of the Canary Islands.

3) The content and sources about inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula being similar, in their admixture, to Western Europe is in the article itself and for a long time, and with sources supporting it. It has just been mentioned in the Lead now, nothing more.

4) The previous Lead mentions and capitalizes the data of a single genetic study, even indicating percentages. That is not correct according to Wikipedia rules. There are lots of different studies in the article, each with its own different results. The Lead should be a generic summary of all of them, not focus on just one study. (See WP: LEAD). Also, putting something as specific as percentages (%) in a Lead is simply unnecessary, it is not the right place.

5) Spaniards, in their admixture, are similar in genetics to Southern French and Northern Italians, as suggested by the sources that have been added. This coincides with the other sources and content of the article's body, not included by me, which suggest close similarity between the Iberian population and Western Europe.

For all these reasons, I think the Lead obviously needed those changes. Itagnol (talk) 08:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Some issues

The information in the page looks more or less acurate but some wordings seem a bit off :

1) Spaniards primary genetic conection is with Atlantic/Western Europe (+70% R1b), not with "Mediterranean peoples".

2) Mediterranean-European populations carry substantial ammounts of Near East/African markers, specially Central/Southern Italy, Sicily, Southern Portugal and Greece. So having affinities with European Mediterranean populations already implies some minor non-European Mediterranean relation.

3) Dividing the article as it is now (links to European/NA/SSA populations) seems to imply first: Spaniards and the Portuguese are not a European populations themselves, and second, they belong in genetic maps somewhat between those three regions, which is absurd. Being a European population already implies having some minor non-European genes. Spaniards have slightly higher Mediterranean influence (and the Portuguese are more genetically diverse) than the European mean, while for example Scandinavians (specially Finns and East Swedes) have a higher Asiatic influence. --88.11.18.191 (talk) 01:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

If you don't like the section break-up, please suggest an alternative one. --Jotamar (talk) 18:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I am writing in reference to the article by Adams, Susan M, et al (2008). "The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula." This article is cited disproportionately as if it was the only research. This attitude is not scientific, but it is descriptive of the personal feelings. This is one of many articles based on interpretation of data.

In the Article by Adams et al (2008) the authors use the Basques as representational of Iberian population before the Islamic period. Yet in Iberia there is a region that had zero Islamic influence, and this region is Asturias. The authors of this article did not include a large sample from Asturias as representational of Iberian populations before the Islamic period.

Why was Asturias ignored? This is because Asturias is a area with a different collections of Y-chromosome and Mt-DNA than the Basques. Adams et al (2008) assume without evidence that the Basque are the most representational people of Iberia.

Was Iberia before the Islamic period identical to the Basques? It is impossible to prove one way or the other, because there is no genetic research before the 20th century. But since Basque was not spoken in the rest of Iberia during historical records, it makes more sense to think that Iberia was different than the Basque region. Before Roman times, most Iberian spoke Celtic as a native language.

Adams et al (2008) after assuming that the Basque were representational of the rest of Iberia, accepted modern populations from the Middle East and North Africa as representational of 8th century populations from these regions. This is something that Adams and the other authors assume (2008); but there is no scientific evidence that the populations of North Africa or the Middle East have remain the same for the last two thousand years.

With these assumptions Adams et al (2008) did a comparison. For example, 50% of the Y-chromosomes of Northwest Africa are E-M81, and the other 50% are in categories J, G, R, I, etc. Then, Adams concluded that when you have a 5% E-M81 Y-chromosomes in a population of Iberia, there had a to be a North African admixture of 10%, because in North Africa Y-chromosomes in groups R1b, G, J, I are also found. The same thinking was applied to their comparison with Middle East populations.

The scientific thinking of Adams et al article (2008) can be question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Robert-Smart (talk • contribs) 18:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

5)The majority of the writing in this article is about a link with Africa; does this mean that the Iberian Peninsula is genetically a part of Africa? The answer is no.

The genetic studies discussed below are interpretations (theories) of samples taken from different parts of Iberia; but the highest overall African admire according to these selective studies (North-African and Sub-Saharan Africa combine) is 10% or less for Y-chromosomes; Mt-DNA is 6% or less (Mt-DNA L and U-6). This means that Iberia is still genetically part of Europe, and the overall African admire is small, if the information presented below were scientifically proven.

From a scientific point of view the information discuss below is presented as a racist criticism of the Iberian people; why is it racist? It is a racist interpretation, because the most important characteristic about Iberian is not the African admixture. For example, the Basques share with all Iberian populations genetic characteristics that separate Iberians from African people and other European groups. Genetically Iberian peoples are a different group than North Africans.

Human habitation of Iberia is thousands of years old; the prehistory of Iberia is different than the prehistory of North Africa. The history of Iberian people is more complex and diverse than the Islamic period. The contributions of the inhabitants of Iberia in prehistoric times are worthy of attention, for example, the cave painting in Altamira.

Iberia shares with North Africa some cultural aspects [like what? lots of sushine?] , but the languages of Iberia are not like the Afro-Asiatic languages of North Africa, Berber and Arabic. Iberia has Indo-European languages and Basque. Culturally Iberian people have their own culture and identity, which is different from the cultures of North Africa.

None of the studies presented below discuss the autosomal genetic interpretation of Iberian people; Y-chromosome and Mt-DNA studies are not always representational of autosomal genetics. A Y-chromosome is only 2% of male genetics, and the Mt-DNA is less than 1% of overall DNA. Levels of admixture are not determent by Y-chromosome or Mt-DNA. Admixture is determent by overall autosomal DNA.

The information below should not be edited or change; it is representative of poor scientific thinking or racist ideology. The amount of information about an African connection is disproportionate large in comparisons with the genetic results. Let the reader be the judge. Jack Robert-Smart (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2011 (UTC)Jack Robert-SmartJack Robert-Smart (talk) 00:03, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Before further editing this page, I suggest that you have a look at the links in your talk page: User talk:Jack_Robert-Smart. Thank you. Jotamar (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

6) The article with the 1%> means that Iberian are 99% African, and that only applies if all human beings are 100% African. But the people editing this article do not make this point. The long list of places with list of African Y-chromosomes and Mt-DNA is racist and not scientific, since every person in those geographical areas have not been tested. This selective quotations from theoretical studies are racist. Why does Wikipedia allows this? Warning Wikipedia is a company with Headquarters in San Francisco, California, where racist discrimination is illegal. JackRobert-Smart. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Robert-Smart (talk • contribs) 20:52, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Another Anfrocentric (Seminordicist) article?

why do not you continue cherry picking information and end up devoting like 90% of the space to the African influence? Why not. Why shoul you point out so much that theIberian Peninsula is one of the places in Europe with the highest frequencies of the most frequent Eurpean ancestry genes? Y and N Haps. This place smells like Nordicist/Afrocentrist propaganda, as usual. Why do not you include this article? There seem to be a sick croud out there.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-africans-who-discovered-europe-first-europeans-part-ii/

And then the introduction. What a fallacy? The discovery o the distribution of Hap. R1b and Mito. Hao. N, the most frequent in Europe and within Europe in Spain are a revolutionary discovery that contradicts all previous historical theories. In interesting , though, to see the reactions in Wikipropagandapedia.

Goofy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.176.68.73 (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

you are right. somebody should take he time and the trouble to fix it. Goof. I agree: This Wiki article is propaganda, with an agenda. And Basques are not genetically distinct when they share most of the DNA with sorrounding populations: Rioja, Navarra, Burgos, Cantabria (except Pasiegos), etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.202.105 (talk) 09:52, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Undue weight conceded to two studies' regional results

Most if not all of the genetic studies used as sources for this article have detailed regional results, yet only two of them are granted with their own subsection. Either: we post all regional results from all studies (insanely blowing up an already inflated article), make some regional means from them (a bit unencyclopedic, but could be done), or just state their general results in the pertinent section they belong, noting any regional statistical oddities if its the case and give each study their due weight.--95.122.68.188 (talk) 23:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

SEVERAL RECENT SOURCES FOUND HERE.

IN THIS LINK YOU CAN FIND SEVERAL LINKS TO RECENT STUDIES ABOUT THE GENETICS OF SPAIN. SINCE THE DISCOVERY OF MODERN GENETICS SURPRISES COME AFTER SURPRISES. I KNOW THAT ALL THESE ETHNIC THEORIES COMING FROM THE 19TH AND EARLY 20TH CENTURIES ARE NOW DISCREDITED AND REGARDED AS PSEUDOSCIENCE. THAT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE REASONS WHY ALL THIS NEW STUFF SOUNDS SO WEIRD, TO ME IN THE FIRST PLACE, I RECKON,

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/07/spaniards-genetically-similar-to.html

POOK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.163.240 (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality of the article

This article seems to be a excuse to write a complete and big paragraph about how iberians are linked with african populations, about how african or jewish are (the typical study that atributes j2 to jewish population, but only in iberia and not in the rest of europe). It is absurd. The agenda is obvious. A BIG 0 to wikipedia and its neutrality.

Instead of just dismissing the page, I think you should propose ways to improve it. Jotamar (talk) 14:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I also think this article is neither good nor neutral. But so what? In some fields Wiki is a disaster and everyone knows it. Pooh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.202.64 (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

This article is a joke, right? Are people here really aware of the latest discoveries about the Iberian genome? John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.172.154 (talk) 00:53, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Haplogroup percentages on their own mean very little.

New updates.

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/06/basque-origins-predate-arrival-of-farmers-in-iberian-peninsula-dna-analysis-finds/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)