Talk:Genetic history of Italy

Genetic composition

The sentence, "and R1a arrived in the Chalcolithic with the migrations of the Proto-Indo-Europeans." urgently needs a reliable source. It appears to be mere phantasy in different extensions. HJJHolm (talk) 09:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, I would like to see even a single find with steppe ancestry at - as at the figure - at -3'900! I have nothing. Seems to be much phantasy.2A02:8108:9640:1A68:2C26:22E:315:EF3D (talk) 09:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Instead, we have to muddle through such long-winded nonsense sentences like "A 2021 study by the Max Planck Institute, the Universities of Tübingen, Florence, and Harvard, published in the journal Science Advances, ..." < All this has to be appear in the reference, while in the main text, simply start with Author et al. (year)!! Nevertheless, we have to thank the author for his diligent piece of work!2A02:8108:9640:1A68:ACC0:1E5F:13B3:6DEB (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove the Map of languages in Italy

I don't see any kind of relation about genetics and language spoken by a population. Are Congolese people and the People of Quebec from Canada the same from a genetic and ethnic point of view because they speak the same language? In this map is shown a map that shows that in Sardinia was spoken the Punic, the Punics were Phoenicians from Middle East, but all modern genetic surveys show that Sardinians have some of the lowest west asian and south west asian admixtures among europeans, much lower than italian average, so that map is out of place! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/4/4a/20120924005000%21Iron_Age_Italy.svg ?!?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TOYpHMIrsVI/AAAAAAAAAOE/on63ho681uI/s1600/ADMIXTURE10.jpeg http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt279/german24/West-Asian-admixture.gif

Antonio, et al (2019)

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/science.aay6826/asset/17e1bdd9-a47d-40b3-97e2-0f7d9ea3dbfa/assets/graphic/366_708_f1.jpeg

Quoting figure:

Late Antiquity - Substantial ancestry shift towards Central and Northern Europeans and away from Near Eastern populations. Continued high variability in ancestry Medieval & Early Modern - Continued ancestry shift toward Central and Northern Europeans

Thanks for reading. - Hunan201p (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

The etruscan page says something different

Thanks for everyones work Just a fyi that the etruscan page says that the etruscans are close to germans

“Allele sharing between the Etruscans and modern populations is highest among Germans (seven haplotypes in common), the Cornish from South West England (five haplotypes in common), the Turks (four haplotypes in common), and the Tuscans (two haplotypes in common).”

I hope i am helping 111.220.109.253 (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Southern Italians are closest to the Modern Greeks, while Northern Italians are closest to Spaniards and Southern French? WTF?

I've read through citations 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 of this article and not ONE of them confirms any proof, mtDNA BS or otherwise, that Southern Italians are closest to Modern Greeks, while Northern Italians are closest to the Spanish and Southern French.

True, many Southern Italians have Greek ancestry. But they got conquered by the Norse and others throughout history since the Greeks. I know because I've visited Sicily. The friends I met there had red, blond, light brown and dark brown hair. Yet, they had very Italian faces.

Northern Italians do not look like Spaniards. Spain was Latino-ized by Julius Caesar during the Roman Empire. Since then Spain has gone through Germanic invasions and, especially, Middle Eastern and North African invasions; Berbers, North African Moors, Sephardic Jews, Mosaics Arabs. Al-Andalus left Spain looking like the least European country in the EU.

Southern France is a hodgepodge of Latino (Roman), Celtic, German, etc. Nimes, France is called the most Latino city outside of Roma, Italia. However, the Southern French people do not look like Northern Italians. Napoleon (who was Latino, himself) did not make Northern Italy look french when he conquered it in the 18th century.

Northern Italians are a mix of Latino from the Roman Empire, Celtics, Germans, Austrians, and the multitudes of Southern Italians who fled Southern Italy owing to WWII. The brown eyed and haired Northern Italians have a Latino face like Robert De Niro. They do not look Moorish like Antonio Banderas. And the other Northern Italian types like Celtics, Germans and Austrians, who mixed with the De Niro types, are quite lovely to look at. Sofiamagnotte (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Regarding your comment: "I've read through citations 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 of this article and not ONE of them confirms any proof, mtDNA BS or otherwise, that Southern Italians are closest to Modern Greeks, while Northern Italians are closest to the Spanish and Southern French". You are absolutely correct. If those 4 citations do not support one sentence in this article, one must ask what else is unsupported. 14.2.206.29 (talk) 11:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

This matter remains open. An attempt by one IP editor to simply delete this entry from the Talk page as being over "closed" is a breach of WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS, and will attract higher attention if it is attempted again. The issue of quality has been raised for discussion - currently nobody is discussing it, but somebody is reinstating references that were deleted because they were irrelevant to what was claimed.

"Southern Italians are closest to the Modern Greeks, while Northern Italians are closest to Spaniards and Southern French" - show me the line and the letter that says that? Which article, which page, which paragraph? You have a week to respond else the offending material will be removed. Any attempt at reinstating it will result in referral to higher WP intervention. 14.2.199.154 (talk) 07:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There is a fair number of issues here, and I’m going to clarify them:

• To begin with, it’s clear that the author who initiated this discussion in 2023 has a significant bias and nearly crosses the line into racism against the Spanish. This is unacceptable on Wikipedia, which is why I removed it. You could simply start a new thread to address the topic and avoid contributing to this flawled one.
• I haven’t added that content nor something new on the article. That content has been part of the article for a long time, and I couldn’t care less whether northern, central, or southern Italians resemble (or not) the Spanish, French, Greeks, Portuguese, or others in terms of admixture. I don’t understand or know about this specific topic, so I can’t take a side. I remain neutral.
• You’ve labeled the content as 'offending material.' I don’t see how a content about genetic similarities between Italians, Greeks, Spanish, and/or southern French, could be labeled like that. Completely unnecessary, just discuss it calmly with others.
• You’re not going to remove anything from the lede without first reaching a consensus. Threatening and imposing time restrictions on people certainly won’t help your case. 87.221.128.243 (talk) 12:24, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou for discussing this matter on the Talk page, which is its purpose. I address your 4 points:

• As a guide, you may not delete WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS from a talk page. I see nothing in the 2023 editor’s comments that border on bias nor racism against the Spanish. I do see rash generalisation which I believe that editor cannot support with evidence. If you believe the editor has breached WP:CIVILity on the grounds of racism, then I encourage you to seek a WP:THIRD opinion and I will be guided by the finding of that more experienced editor.

• I did not claim that you added content nor something new into the article. That was editor User:Deusestlux, who has a track record of causing disruption on Wikipedia and does not respond to requests for discussion nor negotiation, even when summoned to appear before WP:ANI.

• The material is offending because it breaches WP:PROOF – what is claimed cannot be found in the cited references. That to me constitutes an offence: “a breach of a law or rule; an illegal act” according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

• I made an edit. Another editor in essence reverted it. Under WP:BRD I am required to raise the matter on the Talk page, which I have. It is now up to the other editor to respond. The other editor has a track record of not responding. So I will wait one week before I in essence revert their revert. I think that amount of time is fair, seeing that I have raised the issue, gotten no response from that editor, and by rights can revert their revert right now. If this matter comes to adjudication, the Wikipedia community will find that I have been reasonable. If the other editor should revert again then I intend to take the next step per WP:POL.

My issues are in summary:

• The article stated that “Southern Italians are closest to the modern Greeks...” citing Cavalli-Sforza 1994. I amended that to read “Northern Italians are closer to the peoples of Central Europe, with the central and southern Italians being closer to Greece and other Mediterranean countries”, which is what Cavalli-Sforza actually said on pages 277-278. That has now been reverted, with no reason given, back to “Southern Italians are closest to the modern Greeks”. The addition of the Tian 2009 reference by the editor added little enlightenment and did not detract from the work by Cavalli-Sforza 1994.

• The article stated “...while the Northern Italians are closest to the Spaniards and Southern French” citing Haak 2015, Di Gaetano 2012, Price 2008, and Paschou 2014. These references said no such thing, so I removed them and the phrase. This too has been reverted. The reference Nelis 2009 was then added twice to give the appearance of further x2 support - nowhere did it state that the Northern Italians are closest to the Spaniards and Southern French.

Your opinion, please? 14.2.199.154 (talk) 09:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Good afternoon! While I still stand by my initial point, as both the writing style and the content reveal an evident bias, I don't believe any action is necessary at this time since the user is inactive.

I agree with you that unsupported content should be removed, and this may be a good case for it. Unfortunately, I’m not very familiar with the topic, but I’ll do my best to help a bit. I have three main concerns regarding this issue:

• First, I believe that a source from 1994 might be somewhat outdated for a topic like this.
• Second, the way the statement from that source is phrased seems to imply that Northern Italians are more similar to Central European populations than to other Italians and other parts of Europe. I honestly don’t think this is entirely accurate—it feels like an oversimplification that might apply only to certain Alpine Italian groups, such as those from Bolzano, Trentino, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, or Aosta; but Northern Italy is much more diverse than that. Perhaps that is not the source's intention, but the way it is written can mistakenly convey that.
• Lastly, and more important, I don’t see how comparing Italians to other nationalities in this regard adds much value to the lede's article. It’s probably evident to most readers that Italians share most similarities with neighboring countries. I’d even be inclined to omit this kind of content, as it seems unnecessary and has already caused avoidable conflicts in this case.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion. As I mentioned earlier, this topic is not one I’m particularly knowledgeable about. 87.221.128.243 (talk) 12:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hola!

• Although Cavalli-Sforza 1994 is dated, it is the only source that I have found that took samples from Northern Italy, Southern Italy, and what distinguishes it from other studies is that it included samples from Central Italy, so in that respect the sample size covers a wider region than other studies.

• I am no expert on the topic, and have no issue with your doubts regarding Cavalli-Sforza 1994, however it is a valid expert WP:SECONDARY source until someone provides something that is superior to it in that it would draw upon either a) a wider sample size, or b) a better analytical technique such as whole-genome sampling, or c) both.

• I entirely agree with your final point. In circumstances where subject matter is disputed by editors, I have witnessed Wikipedia Administrators "strongly recommending" that such content is moved out of the lede and into the article body, which in those cases is where it went to. I note that the content that we are discussing does not appear in the article body at all, so it is not part of a summary of the article! You would prefer to see this content removed, and I certainly agree with you regarding the phrase "while Northern Italians are closest to Spaniards and Southern French". Given that we are the only two editors who have an interest in discussing this matter, and we concur, this phrase could be removed immediately. Regarding Cavalli-Sforza 1994 "...“Northern Italians are closer to the peoples of Central Europe, with the central and southern Italians being closer to Greece and other Mediterranean countries”, I would be happy to simply remove the section “Northern Italians are closer to the peoples of Central Europe..." but would like to wait and see what other editors think regarding "... central and southern Italians being closer to Greece and other Mediterranean countries" as this may be significant. Not because Cavalli-Sforza mention that southern Italy was once occupied by Greece and that may be the reason, but alternately because the people making up central and southern Italy, Greece, and other Mediterranean countries may have been an early wave of the one people who settled their respective areas at the one time, something Cavalli-Sforza did not consider.

I await your reply, please. 14.2.199.154 (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it would be best to skip this content for the various reasons mentioned above, but I wouldn't mind if you choose to keep only the part about 'Central and southern Italians being closer to Greece and other Mediterranean countries,' as I find it the least awkwardly phrased and it is backed by numerous widely accepted sources, including modern ones.

In any case, I’d wait to see what others think as well. All the best. 87.221.128.243 (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I shall continue awaiting the passage of one week since my comment of 06OCT. Many thanks, you too! 14.2.199.154 (talk) 02:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This matter has now been actioned. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 08:11, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The OG poster's remarks border on anti-Spanish racism. Fixation index, Cavalli-Sforza, 1994 (perhaps a bit outdated study). The closer to cero, the less differentiation between 2 given populations. Spain/France: 0.001. Spain/Southern Germany: 0.002. Spain/Northern Italy: 0.003. Spain/Southern Italy: 0.005. Spain/Poland: 0.005. Main Y-DNA haplogroup (and I by no means attribute childish racial values to the Y-DNA) in Spain and Northern Italy: R1b M269 (but different subclades, I presume), overwhelmingly, +60% of the native males (Y-DNA haplogroups in populations of Europe and Haplogroup R-M269). Southern Italy: J2?, some 30%? Greece: E1b1b (EV-13?), some 30%. Lumping together Spaniards and Southern Italians is ideology, not science. However counterintuitive and contrary to the popular myth, native Spaniards are a very Western European population. I've said Western European, not Northern European. Different things. If Murican WASPs, Keyboard Nordicists and people with agenda like Sofia Magnotte can't swallow it, it's not Spain's problem. 85.84.57.60 (talk) 10:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Editor Deusestlux, once again you have reverted my edit without discussion either at User_talk:Deusestlux#Notice_FYI nor on this article's Talk page, where you have been invited to attend. Do this again and I will WP:ANI you - there the WP community may decided whether your IP address should be blocked or not. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 04:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Editor Hssstrt, I have reason to believe that you are editing as a WP:SOCKPUPPET of editor Deusestlux. This matter will now be referred to higher authorities on WP for investigation. If your IPs match, there will be issues for you. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 04:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

First of all quoting a study from 1994 which only uses 4 SNPs is really ludicrous: there are tons of recent studies which uses millions of SNPs. All of them show the extact same thing: Southern Italians are closest to Greek while Northern ones are closest to Spaniards and Southern French.

A brief list for reference

A couple of studies proving that Southern Italians overlap with Greeks

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5434004/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6851683/

This is from Fiorito et al 2015: North Italians are in between Central Italians and Iberians

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fejhg.2015.233/MediaObjects/41431_2016_BFejhg2015233_MOESM19_ESM.jpg

This is from Sazzini et al 2016: North Italians (blue circles) are in between Central Italians (green squares) and Spaniards (hollow green squares)

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep32513/figures/2

This is from Stamatoyannopoulos et al 2017: Venetians (black squares) are in between Tuscan (light blue circles) and Spaniards (green circles).

Sicilians (green triangles) overlap with Greeks from Peloponnese (red circles)

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718/figures/2

This is from Tian et al 2008: North Italians (yellow triangles) are in between Greeks (light blue traingles) and Spaniards (violet triangles)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18208329/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-2-uid-1

This is from Paschou et al 2014: Sicilians overlap with Greeks from Laconia and Crete

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4078858/#fig04

This is from Tian et al 2009: North Italians (white triangles) are in between Tuscans (green rhombuses) and Spaniards (orange triangles)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2730349/#f1-09_94_tian

This is from Nelis et al 2009: North Italians (orange triangles) are in between Southern Italians (blue crosses) and Spaniards (red crosses)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2675054/#pone-0005472-g002

This is from Di Gaetano et al 2012: North Italians (black dots) are in between Central Italians (red dots) and French (pink dots)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3440425/#pone-0043759-g001 Deusestlux (talk) 14:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Editor User:Terrainman, please explain why you reverted my edit. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The first part of your edit is possibly OK, the second part adds info which is not consistent with the source, also it appears to not make any sense. In 1994, an SNP study indicated that the people of central and southern Italy were closer to the peoples of Greece and other Mediterranean countries.[88] This is at the beginning of the section, what does 'closer' mean? Closer relative to what? 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 09:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I kept your edit but added a clarification and verification needed until you can ensure the paragraph aligns with the source material (where does the date 1994 come from?), and change the wording to make more sense. 𝙏𝙚𝙧𝙧𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙢𝙖𝙣地形人 (talk) 09:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Terrainman, I find your second approach more acceptable. You are correct in your criticism, and I shall now search for the correct reference, my apologies. I am also attempting to deal with the "fly in the ointment", see directly above. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 05:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

You were correct - it certainly wasn't found in Cian et al 2009. The study I quoted was unique because of surveying just northern or southern Italians, it included central Italians. However I cannot find it, and so I have removed the text. 14.2.205.131 (talk) 08:40, 22 November 2024 (UTC)