Talk:Genesis creation narrative/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Genesis creation narrative, for the period April 2007 – October 2007.
Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

This is an archive of past discussions about Genesis creation narrative. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

ABOUT PAINTINGS

Most of artist are absurd. How could they depicted God has something like what they had done? God doesn't have hairy things on his body or even cover like we humans do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chimerarc (talk • contribs) 21:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Terminology

It seems that this artucle uses "textual criticism" and "textual critic" throughout, when it is actually referring to "source criticism" and "source critic." I'm particularly troubled by the sentence:

"The small minority[citation needed] of academics rejecting the methodology of textual criticism, as well as non-academic Creationists, argue that when a biblical text is measured against the scholar's own concept of unity and found wanting, this probably says more about the biblical scholar's sense of unity than about the text's prehistory. (Carr 24)."

which seems to imply that conservatives who reject the two-source theory are rejecting textual criticism (when in fact many of them are very active textual critics). I propose that in this section (and elsewhere in the article) the term textual criticism be replaced with source criticism, the term "textual critic" be replaced by "source critic" and this particular sentence be altered to read "Some question the methodology of source criticism in passages like this and argue that[...]" This would both help in avoiding arguments over loaded terms like "small minority" and "academic", and improve the accuracy of the statement. I know many conservative biblicists who would agree with the above argument with respect to source criticism in the Pentatech, but fully accept the methods of source criticism elsewhere (e.g. in identifying Q-quotations in the Gospels), and use the same text-critical methodology as any more liberal scholar would.

Demmeis 03:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Judaism POV

May I point out that Judaism believes that G-d wrote the Torah, not Moses. --86.138.210.93 18:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Judaism is notable as a faith tradition where many adherents see no conflict between evolutionary theory and their religious beliefs. ^[1] ^[2] ^[3] Classical 11th century Jewish commentator Rashi has said that the grammartically correct reading, in Hebrew, of Genesis 1:1 is, "In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the Earth." Likewise, he refutes the reading of the verse as "In the beginning [of everything] God created the heavens and the Earth", as it is illogical, due to the fact that, in the next verse, water is mentioned before having been created. Indeed, water is never said to be created in the Genesis account of creation. ^[4]

ems (not to be confused with the nonexistant pre-dating account by the same name) 09:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Article needs historical perspective

The interpretation of Genesis as a literal text has a long history which this article largely ignores. Beginning with Augustine's De genesi ad literam and Basil's Hexaemeron through such medieval scholastics as Peter Lombard, Robert Grosseteste and Thomas Aquinas, there is a complex tradition of biblical exegesis in which theologians sought to interpret Creation within the context of then known scientific theories. I have no doubt there are similar Jewish and Muslim traditions, but I don't know that literature.

I'd like to hear thoughts of how a historical perspective would fit in the present article. --SteveMcCluskey 02:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Authorship

I tried to tidy this long section up, but probably butchered it instead. Nevertheless, I do see some real weaknesses in it. It's too long! And it's rambling and it fails to deal adequately with the Mosaic traditional view (which is why there was so little left of that view by the time I'd finished). It isn't very good oin the DH, either - Welhasen is dead, the theory to look at is the modern version, not the old...plus what about non-DH views? (not every scholar who rejects the Mosaic tradition is automatically a follower of the DH) PiCo 11:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Dual cosmogonies

I've modified The dual account theory to include a very brief description of an interpretation as dual cosmogonies given in much more detail in the source cited. This seemed the best place for it, though it might be made a separate sub-section. ... dave souza, talk 11:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Argumentation

Please note that this is a lengthy article which (IMO) is focussed on the text of Genesis 1-3, and issues such as authorship, rather than the interpretation. The "interpretation" section at the end is just a brief summary of the various interpretative options. Extensive arguments and counter-arguments do not belong here -- they should be added to the main articles for each position. Tonicthebrown 02:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Divide Article to Creation Week and Garden of Eden

As noted above, this article is quite long. I suggest splitting a majority of the information into two different articles relating to what many theologians consider the priestly account which uses the term, "Elohim," for God and the Jahwist account which uses the term, "Yahweh," for God. I believe there is a good deal of information on both to constitute separate articles such as the creation week story disenchanting nature from polytheistic dieties or the Jahwist apparent concerns against idolatry and pride denoted in the stories of the Garden of Eden, Flood, and Tower of Babel. Pbarnes 04:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. However, I personally do not feel that such a split would be realistic or helpful. There is too much common ground -- for example, the discussion about single vs. dual authorship and dual perspective. Much of the existing article looks at Genesis 1-3 as a whole. Having said that, the article is very long and perhaps someone needs to go through it to see if anything can be made more concise. Tonicthebrown 07:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Earth/Universe

This is somehing I've never been able to get, maybe someone here can answer me: Is Genesis supposed to be about the creation of the entire universe, or just the planet Earth? Thanks! 12.218.145.112 04:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Doubtful

I am slightly doubtful about the recent changes. For example:

Tohu Va-Vohu" (Hebrew: תהו ובהו), "formless" and "void".-What is this sentence now supposed to mean?
ruach-This is introduced in a strange way
Assorted scholars etc-introduced but no reference to them, just names dropped in the text.

Comments?--Filll 13:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Response:

Tohu Va-Vohu" (Hebrew: תהו ובהו), "formless" and "void".-What is this sentence now supposed to mean?

Can't help you there - but the point seems to be that T&B hasa been commented on a lot by Jewish mystics. That's worth mentioing, but maybe only briefly in this article, with a fuller treatment in a separate T&B article (maybe one already exists?)

ruach-This is introduced in a strange way

Guilty - I did it. But what's strange about the way it's introduced?

Assorted scholars etc-introduced but no reference to them, just names dropped in the text.

I guess someone was referencing his sources but did it the wrong way. It could be cleaned up.

More broadly, the wholea rticle seems rather rambling to me - many bits, even whole sections, are repeated, but in different words. And as someone above points out, it concentrates on authorship, at the expense of theology - the author of Genesis was writing theology, after all. I'd like to see three broad sections, with subsections as neede, namely TEXT (this already exists - I'd use it for discussing "lower criticism", the meanings of words and phrases in Hebrew, such as the fact that the Hebrew doesn't actually say "In the beginning God created..."); ORIGINS (who wrote it, when, where - room here for the Mosaic authorship tradition too); THEOLOGY (what it meant to the people who first wrote/read it, how the theology has developed since then - here's where the tohu-bohu/Kabala can go, plus the Christian development of ruach into Holy Spirit). PiCo 08:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Primes

I'm a bit concerned about the section regarding the number seven. "Seven was regarded as a significant number in the ancient Near East, representing a quarter of the 28-day lunar cycle, and appearing as the third prime number, the preceding primes being three and five." Two is also a prime number, and seven is the fourth prime number. Whether the belief was wrong, or just this article, I'm unsure. Thoughts? -Unnatural20 19:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is doubtful in many ways, and not just these. I think there are many other musings about the significance of the number 7. There are many things about this article that I am unhappy with.--Filll 19:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

All sounds a bit BibleCode-like to me. 7 is the fourth prime number also, so have removed this section. Slov01 21:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No, with all due respect this is not Bible Code. The way the number 7 is used in the text is intentional by the author, and this is observed by numerous commentators. A reputable commentary (by Gordon Wenham has been cited. I agree with you, however, the the prime number stuff is dubious and so I have left it removed. Tonicthebrown 11:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The lunar cycle is 29.53 - certainly nothing to do with the number 7 there. As the prime number part has been removed and the reference has been repaired only a minor edit has been applied.Slov01 13:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think whoever added that comment (7 is a quarter of the lunar cycle) was referring to the theory that the 7-day week derives from ancient Mesopotamian astronomy, which estimated the lunar cycle as 28 days and divided this into four. However, I agree that the relevance of this to Genesis 1 is questionable. Tonicthebrown 14:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent order of events

I'm not sure how to integrate the following info into the article, but... It is often stated by young earth creationists that the "inconsistencies" can be rectified by the fact that in chapter 2 uses the past tense "had" (e.g. vs 8 and vs 19), making reference to the fact that the animals that Adam named had already been created beforehand. Chapter 2 probably details the events of day 6 in chapter 1:

all of creation - except for humans - had already been made
God made a man
God put the man in the garden of Eden and gave him the task of naming all the animals in the garden.
after the animals of the garden were all named, it was found that none of them were suitable partners for Adam.
so God put Adam to sleep and formed a woman out of his rib.
Adam named the woman Eve

{end the recount of day 6}

for more info see http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c023.html, although a different source should be cited for the article because Christiananswers.net would be considered biased or POV... hence I won't jump in and edit the article myself... --Hypershock 15:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence of Genesis 2:4 states: "This is the account of the heavens and the Earth when they were created." (NIV) I personally read it as the book simply stating what Genesis is about. Other parts of the Bible will say something like "this is the Word of God" in the middle of their writings. This appears to me to be the same thing. Hardly ground for calling it contradictory, it's simply a matter of reading comprehension. 70.118.119.96 23:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

^ The Rabbinical Council of America notes that significant Jewish authorities have maintained that evolutionary theory, properly understood, is not incompatible with belief in a Divine Creator, nor with the first 2 chapters of Genesis. [1]
^ The High Council of B'nei Noah a sub-court of the developing Sanhedrin: Science and Religion: A proper perspective through an understanding of Hebrew sources
^ Aish HaTorah According to a possible reading of ancient commentators' description of God and nature, the world may be simultaneously young and old.
^ Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:1:
In the beginning of God’s creation of (Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא). This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of Rabbi Akiva, second letter; Genesis Rabbah 1:6; Leviticus Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Proverbs 8:22): “the beginning of His way,” and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jeremiah 2:3) “the first of His grain.” But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’” But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:“At first (Hebrew: בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה) He created the heavens and the earth,” for there is no רֵאשִׁית in Scripture that is not connected to the following word, [i.e., in the construct state] like (ibid. 27:1):“In the beginning of (Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִית) the reign of Jehoiakim” ; (below 10:10)“the beginning of (Hebrew: רֵאשִׁית) his reign” ; (Deuteronomy 18:4)“the first (Hebrew: רֵאשִׁית) of your grain...” Here too, you say בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אלֹהִים, like בְּרֵאשִׁית בְּרֹא, in the beginning of creating. And similar to this is,“At the beginning of the Lord’s speaking (Hebrew: דִּבֶּר) to Hosea,” (Hosea 1:2), i.e., at the beginning of the speaking (Hebrew: דִּבּוּרוֹ) of the Holy One, Blessed be He, to Hosea, “the Lord said to Hosea, etc.” Now if you say that it came to teach that these (i.e., heaven and earth) were created first, and that its meaning is: In the beginning of all, He created these-and that there are elliptical verses that omit one word, like (Job 3:9): “For [He] did not shut the doors of my [mother’s] womb,” and it does not explain who it was who shut [the womb]; and like (Isaiah 8:4): “he will carry off the wealth of Damascus,” and it does not explain who will carry it off; and like (Amos 6:12): “or will one plow with cattle,” and it does not explain: “if a man will plow with cattle” ; and like (Isaiah. 46: 10): “telling the end from the beginning,” and it does not explain that [it means] telling the end of a matter from the beginning of a matter-if so, [if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation].

God’s creation of the heavens and the earth But it does not say “of the Lord’s creation of” (i.e., it should say “of the Lord God’s creation of” as below 2:4 “on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven”) for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.”

[RCA-1] The Rabbinical Council of America notes that significant Jewish authorities have maintained that evolutionary theory, properly understood, is not incompatible with belief in a Divine Creator, nor with the first 2 chapters of Genesis. [1]

[Sanhedrin-2] The High Council of B'nei Noah a sub-court of the developing Sanhedrin: Science and Religion: A proper perspective through an understanding of Hebrew sources

[aish-3] Aish HaTorah According to a possible reading of ancient commentators' description of God and nature, the world may be simultaneously young and old.

[rashi-4] Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:1:
In the beginning of God’s creation of (Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא). This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of Rabbi Akiva, second letter; Genesis Rabbah 1:6; Leviticus Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Proverbs 8:22): “the beginning of His way,” and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jeremiah 2:3) “the first of His grain.” But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’” But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:“At first (Hebrew: בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה) He created the heavens and the earth,” for there is no רֵאשִׁית in Scripture that is not connected to the following word, [i.e., in the construct state] like (ibid. 27:1):“In the beginning of (Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִית) the reign of Jehoiakim” ; (below 10:10)“the beginning of (Hebrew: רֵאשִׁית) his reign” ; (Deuteronomy 18:4)“the first (Hebrew: רֵאשִׁית) of your grain...” Here too, you say בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אלֹהִים, like בְּרֵאשִׁית בְּרֹא, in the beginning of creating. And similar to this is,“At the beginning of the Lord’s speaking (Hebrew: דִּבֶּר) to Hosea,” (Hosea 1:2), i.e., at the beginning of the speaking (Hebrew: דִּבּוּרוֹ) of the Holy One, Blessed be He, to Hosea, “the Lord said to Hosea, etc.” Now if you say that it came to teach that these (i.e., heaven and earth) were created first, and that its meaning is: In the beginning of all, He created these-and that there are elliptical verses that omit one word, like (Job 3:9): “For [He] did not shut the doors of my [mother’s] womb,” and it does not explain who it was who shut [the womb]; and like (Isaiah 8:4): “he will carry off the wealth of Damascus,” and it does not explain who will carry it off; and like (Amos 6:12): “or will one plow with cattle,” and it does not explain: “if a man will plow with cattle” ; and like (Isaiah. 46: 10): “telling the end from the beginning,” and it does not explain that [it means] telling the end of a matter from the beginning of a matter-if so, [if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation].

God’s creation of the heavens and the earth But it does not say “of the Lord’s creation of” (i.e., it should say “of the Lord God’s creation of” as below 2:4 “on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven”) for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.”

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]