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Regarded as a creation myth

A key sentence in the first paragraph says:

I daresay expert scholarly opinion categorizes this creation narrative as a "creation myth", but I wonder if that is merely the viewpoint of those scholars. Is it so much of a mainstream view that no {{who}} attribution is necessary?

Or should we say that scholars of religion regard it as one of many creation myths (attributing the viewpoint to scholars of religion in general? --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. The term "creation myth" has a defined meaning. It didn't belong in the title because it can be misleading, but in the body of the article, it definitely belongs.
Yes, there should probably be a citation there, and I'll go add a request for one, but it shouldn't be at all hard to find. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:15, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I replaced the current text with this:
The Genesis creation narrative is a narrative account of the creation of the earth, life, and humanity. Found in the first two chapters of the biblical Book of Genesis, it is considered by many scholars to fall into the category of Ancient Near East creation myths, differing from others in this category in its monotheistic outlook. It also introduces the idea of humanity being made in the image of God (tzelem elohim) and, in Christian theology, the activity of the Holy Spirit.
No agenda pushing on either side. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Of course that's agenda pushing. "narrative account of the creation of the earth, life, and humanity." ??? Are you shitting me? This sentence presupposes that creation actually happened. · CUSH · 20:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Good job, Lisa - because of course, while one can appeal to those "theologians" who say it is a myth, one can also point to the theologians who have categorically stated, using various arguments, that it is NOT in that genre: including (but not limited to) Bernhard Anderson, G. Ernest Wright, James I. Packer, James Orr, G. C. Berkouwer, Claus Westermann, Robert Jenson, René Girard, etc. etc... Nobody's theologians have a monopoly on a controversial POV question like the genre of Genesis... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, but I like Torchiest's version even better. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the "many scholars" attribution in the lead, can we name some scholars (by which I mean academics in mainstream universities) who do not regard this as a creation myth? SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

In the lead? That seems like something to go in the body. Do you object to the "many scholars" thing? You want to take the creation myth business out of the lead altogether? I don't think that's going to go over very well. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
(ec) No, I meant could someone tell me here, with diffs or citations, the names of a couple of current academics in mainstream universities who do not believe this is a myth, and what they do think it is? SlimVirgin talk contribs
Also let's not keep raising the standard impossibly high. All of the theologians I just linked are sufficiently known and credentialed as theologians to constitute a significant POV - regardless of whether or not someone wants to debate their status "academics in mainstream universities".
This is from Conrad Hyers. He actually thinks Genesis is a creation myth, but note that unlike some here, he has he scholarly integrity to mention the status of academia on this.
"In using the terms myth and mythical in relation to Genesis, we encounter greater misgivings. Not only do the terms have unsavory connotations in popular usage, but an impressive array of biblical scholars have argued that both myth and mythical modes of thought are absent from the Bible. Myths are what the Egyptians and Babylonians believed. 'The God of Israel has no mythology,' declared G. Ernest Wright. 'The religion of Israel suddenly appears in history, breaking radically from the mythopoeic approach to reality.' This position follows the earlier lead of Hermann Gunkel who had argued that myths are "stories about the gods", and since a myth requires at least two gods to make a story, the Old Testament contains no myths, though some mythical materials are alluded to... Obviously if one restricts the term myth to polytheistic materials, biblical materials are not only not mythical but anti-mythical..." -- The Meaning of Creation by Conrad Hyers, 1984, p. 99.
Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:26, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Those are not all "theologians". If you mean more generically "scholar of religion" when you say theologian, which is not what a theologian is, then I understand what you're saying but because of this mistaken use of the term you're confusing things.Griswaldo (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
That's odd, because their wikipedia articles identify them as "theologians", and prominent ones at that. And I only listed the ones here I could find articles for, there's plenty more. Are you revoking their theologian membership cards now? LOL Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
What's odd is that you're incorrect. According to Wikipedia Rene Girard is a "historian, literary critic, and philosopher of social science." G. Ernest Wright "was a leading Old Testament scholar and biblical archaeologist". People who study religion are not all "theologians". You seem to misunderstand the difference.Griswaldo (talk) 18:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Griswaldo, Girard is the one possible exception to being a "theologian", and note his article has a whole section devoted to his published and well known views regarding the Bible and myth. G Ernest Wright, if you bother to read his article, "He taught Old Testament History and Theology at McCormick Seminary from 1939-1958." But the bottom line is, a Biblical scholar's views on "myth" should not be a litmus test of being a "theologian" or a Significant scholarly POV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
'Teaching theology doth not a theologian make. On top of this, someone may teach, or even create theology while also being versed in related fields, like biblical studies. It is not Wright's qualifications in theology that make him an expert in Biblical Studies. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 19:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=4eX&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22Ernest%20wright%22%20%2Btheologian&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp
So let me get this straight - you, Griswaldo, seriously are revoking their "theologian" membership cards - while at the same time, just to be on the safe side (in case it should turn out that they really are "theologians" after all), declaring that "theologians" are not valid sources for a significant theological POV. You're arguing too many different things here. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Please read more carefully. I didn't revoke anyone's anything. My original comment was that they are "not all theologians". Rene Girard is not even remotely a theologian so even if you want to quibble about the rest there is absolutely nothing false about my statement. No offense Til, but this entry is not mainly about "a significan theological POV" of any kind. There is a section that covers theology, and clearly this passage is important to Christian and Jewish theology, but the entry is about the passage first. You clearly fail to grasp some of the rather basic differences here ("theology" vs. religious studies, "theology" vs. biblical scholarship, etc.) so its difficult to pretend to have a conversation with you. I will stop now. Go ahead and keep on abusing the term "theology" and its significance to the entry because this isn't worth it. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Being magisterial always fails to impress me. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Good thing I'm not trying to impress you, though it is unfortunate that I have failed to impress anything upon you.Griswaldo (talk) 11:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

translation ... why?

What does tzelem elohim add to the lead? Abtract (talk) 16:32, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing at all, considering that it's just a redirect to a link that's already there. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Revert

Lisa, can you explain this revert, please? All it seems to do is add extra words unnecessarily. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Sure. I think it makes sense to first say what a thing is and then say things about it. To first say things about it and then say what a thing is, the way you had it, doesn't flow very well, in my opinion. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
We can't say what it is, because there is a dispute about what it is, and when people try to add it, it's reverted. "Ancient telling" is meaningless. We should begin by saying what most scholars (or whatever expression you want to use) see it as. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:24, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
"Ancient telling" isn't meaningless. It's an attempt to create a neutral description. The article is about something ancient, so that's an accurate adjective. "Telling" is the most neutral word I could come up with to describe the article's concept without giving it too much weight in any particular direction, i.e. using words like "account", "myth", or "story", which bias things. Torchiest (talk | contribs) 17:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
To throw in my two cents. I don't see any real issue with either version. I prefer the "The Genesis creation narrative is an ancient telling......life, and humanity. " simply because it strikes me as better writting (though I take SV's point about "telling", perhaps change to "account"?). Either way, this article is contraversial enough that changes to the lead really ought to be discussed before it is changed. NickCT (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
(ec) It means the same as narrative. So you're saying the narrative is a narrative. SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
People this is a Judeo-Christian story about creation, not a Judeo-Christian "version" of creation. The latter implies a much more literalist understanding of said story, which is not the norm.Griswaldo (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm not saying the narrative is a narrative. I'm saying that the Genesis creation narrative is a narrative about the beginning of the world. And that's correct according to everyone. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:16, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Source request

In case this question gets lost above, could someone tell me—with diffs, citations, or brief quotes—the names of a few academics currently working in mainstream universities who have said unambiguously that this is not a myth, and if possible what they think it is instead? SlimVirgin talk contribs 17:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

You want to provide us with the same for those who say it unambiguously is myth? Anyways, how's this for starters? NickCT (talk) 17:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
SV, did you miss what I said just before you asked that question? Here it is again: ...while one can appeal to those "theologians" who say it is a myth, one can also point to the theologians who have categorically stated, using various arguments, that it is NOT in that genre: including (but not limited to) Bernhard Anderson, G. Ernest Wright, James I. Packer, James Orr, G. C. Berkouwer, Claus Westermann, Robert Jenson, René Girard, etc. etc... Nobody's theologians have a monopoly on a controversial POV question like the genre of Genesis... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
@SlimVirgin Ah-well I've seen some, so they're out there but they generally rely upon a peculiarly theological definition of "myth" (often taken from interpretation of New Testament passages) to specifically refer to the wrong-headed, religious pseudo-truths believed by "others". But no serious study of myth today would overlook or omit the Genesis creation story-I find it now to be one of the most frequently cited examples of creation myth. And there is no unanimity of opinion about any single thing in this or almost any other Biblical topic. Most claims are necessarily going to have to characterize what's certainly the "general", rather than "unanimous" opinion--otherwise anything said here becomes virtually unreadable, buried neck deep in caveats, footnotes, translations and qualifiers.
@Til Eulenspiegel at least some of those names you've given I recognize as having argued to advance a new kind of theology derived from a renewed vision/version of the myth- that's something a bit different, isn't it? --Professor marginalia (talk) 18:38, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
No theologian has a monopoly on this, and indeed theologians are not the scholars we should be looking to in the first place since they are coming from within a tradition of faith and necessarily have to wrestle with that tradition when they look at its core texts. This means they are making sense of the Bible in light of non-scriptural sources of religious authority. We should be looking to the fields of Biblical studies, comparative literature, religious studies, archeology, history, sociology, etc.Griswaldo (talk) 18:46, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
This is getting stranger all the time. A couple months ago when Ben, Cush et. al. were claiming that "theologians" unanimously declared Genesis to be a myth, then "theologians" were our best sources. Now that it appears they don't, suddenly theologians aren't our best sources. Why not just come out and say that anyone who calls Genesis a myth fits the litmus test of being our best sources. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
There didn't exist any such unanimity among theologians then or now. There isn't unanimity of opinion among theologians about anything at all, is there? Even the opening words "In the beginning" are disputed. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no idea whether or not Ben and Cush understand the difference between Theology and the more general study of religion, but its rather likely given what you say that at the very least they don't appreciate the more exact use of terminology. See -- Theology#Theology_and_religious_studies (note that this distinction is not simply in "some contexts", it is recognized by anyone who studies religion). Ben and Cush also rather distinctly do not speak for me in any way shape or form. Scholars of ancient literature and more generally of religion are our best sources. Those who specifically focus on theology are, once again, usually interpreting these texts through various other claims made by their faith traditions, as opposed to the (at least supposedly) more objective lens of secular scholarship.Griswaldo (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, you don't speak for me, either. And I say the opinion of these recognized theologians meets every possible wikipedia standard of being a "significant point of view" on the subject. To argue otherwise is to suggest (as Cush has) that all religion is a priori illegitimate,. and never could be legitimate as a POV worthy of mention, regardless of how widespread or how well sourced it is. Which is not exactly a "mainstream" view, in academia or otherwise. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Til I never implied I spoke for you, but you did imply that somehow what I'm now saying should be judged by what Ben and Cush said sometime ago. I find that part of your reply rather odd. A "theologian" is absolutely not de facto a reliable source on biblical scholarship. Please ask someone who knows about this like say Alastair, who if I'm not mistaken is professionally immersed in both fields himself. Some theologians may have virtually no expertise in biblical studies. Once again the point here is that "theology" in and of itself is not what makes someone qualified in biblical studies. I have never made the argument you attribute to Cush either. Religious views are not illegitimate, but they are also not on par with secular scholarship when it comes to comparing the religion in question to those of others. That is exactly what is required when one starts talking about categories like "myth", for instance.Griswaldo (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
"Religious views are not illegitimate, but they are also not on par with secular scholarship" Says you. All significant points of view are supposed to be considered neutrally. No matter how you colour it, there's no way "tilting" can ever equal "neutral". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey you two! :)) I, for one, admire you both, please keep being as gentle as possible.
Yes, Griswaldo, I agree on two important points, that I suspect Til will concede also.
Some outstanding theologians will admit that, irrespective of bias issues, they are not experts in Hebrew, Aramaic or Semitic languages in general. Many outstanding scholars of biblical languages and literature admit they are not expert theologians. Both theology and language/literature issues are relevant to this article. Some writers are good at both. Some are absolutely outstanding in one or the other, irrespective of secular or religious commitment.
I hope it is fair to say that a theologian can neither be automatically excluded, nor included, by virtue of her being a theologian alone, or a biblical scholar alone.
The second point where I agree with Griswaldo is that when a theologian or biblical scholar does have a published confessional position, that is frequently (but not always) relevant. A confessional religious point of view is not grounds for exclusion if the POV is significant, it is grounds for inclusion; however, the secular point of view is exceedingly valuable in many (if not all) cases also.
I cannot say just how very much I appreciate biblical scholars who are from religious traditions other than Christianity, or are secular academics. Their expert views very frequently indeed help demonstrate which parties in sectarian disputes are closest to being objective. Sometimes, as in The Myth of God Incarnate, religious writers have a common partisan cause with secular atheist writers. However, there are many other places where secular sources are agnostic, rather than atheist, and actually back the very things religious writers claim the Bible to be saying.
Please, please be gentle with one another. The subject of this article has genuinely tricky features that make these debates about neutrality exceedingly sophisticated. We need to bypass the crude issue of neutrality, so we can work out some of the finer points.
I think the best thing I can do is testify to the good faith of both Griswaldo and Til, and to the intelligent and informed nature of everything both of them are saying. I'm not trying to hide issues here, I think there are genuine subtleties that the keen minds of both Gris and Til can eat for breakfast, so long as they trust one another. So much is this the case, that I feel free to say nothing here about content, just these words regarding the quality of the editors who are currently struggling to find their way forwards. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:22, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Source request again

Okay, I'll ask again. :) Can someone give me, say, three names of current academics (not former, not retired) working at the moment in mainstream universities, along with clear citations where they say this is not a myth? SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Very probably, but you seem to be insisting on raising the bar to an impossibly higher standard than wp holds to demonstrate that any other significant and widespread POV honest-to-god exists out there. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
That's not a high bar at all. Consensus within academic disciplines changes and an encyclopedia that one can edit instantly has no excuse not to be up to date. Consider that even in the 1970s and 80s most sociologists of religion believed secularization theory and barely 20 years later it has been almost completely abandoned. In the hard sciences this would be a no-brainer, but unfortunately the humanities and social sciences often pertain to subjects that people have a personal stake in proving one way or another so old scholarship that fits someone's POV is not as easily forgotten. Anyway if a certain perspective was common we should report it as a piece of relevant history, but only if a perspective is common should we use it argue about how to present our subject matter outright.Griswaldo (talk) 11:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
My point is that it's a bar that you just made up, and you're holding this article to a higher standard than any other on wikipedia without the policy to back it up. I'm not saying the bar cannot be met, I'm saying that as soon as it is, the authoritative types here will suddenly insist it be raised a little higher, because nothing would ever ever good enough to prove that the POV really is widespread one when they are trying to "discourage" it. The whole thing is really pathetic when you look at it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi, we've got a situation here where the lead says "many scholars" believe this is a creation myth. That means that some scholars don't believe it. So could you please name some current scholars in universities who don't? Just three names, with citations to where they say it. Or even just one name with one citation to get us started. SlimVirgin talk contribs 11:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
So once again, we need sources speaking for the theological POV, but with one caveat, the theological POV is pre-disqualified as illegitimate. So what we are attempting to search for to satisfy you is theological sources that are not theological sources. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
No one said it was illegitimate. If there is a significant view amongst theologians today that this is not a myth then you can source it and we can figure out how best to get it into the entry. But if it is indeed only theologians then perhaps we need to do so with some attribution, but that's another story. Also Slimvirgin, who is making this request, has never said anything about theologians, that was just me, so I fail to understand why you are conflating us like that. Just produce the sources and we can proceed.Griswaldo (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
(ec) I don't mind whether they're theologians or something else. I ask only that they be current professional academics working for mainstream universities. SlimVirgin talk contribs 11:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Well anyone can ask any high standard, but we have wikipedia standards for significant POV too, and they apply across the board to all articles. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
So could you supply a couple of names, please, with citations to where they say it? SlimVirgin talk contribs 12:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia's standards for establishing that the POV exists have already been abundantly met. Now let's see if it will meet your specially high standard (to which no other topic on wp is held), or if you will claim the authority to raise the bar yet higher still:

  • "Since pagan god-stories concern not history but nature, and since Scripture recounts nothing of Yahweh like the celestial goings-on of these god-stories, it seems clearer and sounder to follow Scripture's own usage and reject myth as a non-Biblical category."... J. I. Packer (qv) currently Professor of Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia.
  • "Genesis' story is not a myth, for it does not in fact tell us anything about what things were like when there were no things. Its tohu webohu is not an antecedent nothingness-actuality like the Great Slime dismembered by the Babylonian Marduk, nor yet an eternal egg or womb or pure potentiality of primal matter..." -- Systematic Theology, Robert Jenson, 1997, p. 11
"The story told in the third chapter of Genesis is not a myth; it does not describe what always and never happens. It describes the historical first happening of what thereafter always happens; moreover, had it not happened with the first humans it could not have happened at all, since then the first humans would have been omitted from an "encompassing deed of the human race". -- ibid, p. 150
Note: This entry is not about the "third chapter of Genesis", but what comes before it.Griswaldo (talk) 12:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
  • "The Bible itself is perfectly aware of its opposition to all mythological religions. It brands them as idolatrous, and I think that the revelation of scapegoat delusion in mythology is an essential part of the fight against idolatry. Here we could go, for instance, to the story of Cain and Abel, and compare it to the myth of Romulus and Remus. In the story of Cain and Abel, the murder of one brother by the other is presented as a crime that is also the founding of a community. But in the Roman story this foundation cannot be viewed as a crime. It is a legitimate action by Romulus. The point of view of the Bible about such events differs enormously from that of myth." -- Oedipus Unbound: Selected Writings on Rivalry and Desire, by René Girard, Mark R. Anspach, 2004 ISBN 0804747806, 9780804747806 p. 112
"Not only is the Bible not myth; it is the source of whatever "demythologization" has occurred in the world and will occur in the future. (ibid, p. 112)
Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little confused by this discussion. We were told repeatedly during the lengthy argument about the article's name that the term "creation myth" was a neutral term used by scholars to describe this genre and that it had no pejorative connotation. Now we are arguing about whether scholars "believe" it is a myth? They either use the term or they don't. The Google Scholar searches reported above say many do and many use other terms. That's what our article should reflect.--agr (talk) 12:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Your confusion stems from the fact that most of the authors who don't use the specific term Genesis creation myth still recognize that the passages contain a "creation myth".Griswaldo (talk) 12:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
If creation myth is a neutral descriptor, there is nothing the "recognize" or "believe". One uses the term or one does not. Biologists don't "recognize" or "believe" that cats are feline.--agr (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The naming issue was about what this passage is commonly called -- not whether or not scholars believe these passages contain a creation myth. If you asked a dog breeder what a Beagle is commonly called they'd say, duh a Beagle -- not for instance a "Beagle hound", even though several other hounds do have the term in their names, see foxhound. If you also asked that breeder if the beagle is a hound they'd say, yeah a beagle is a hound. There is nothing odd or contradictory about the this. Similarly scholars may refer to this Biblical narrative by another name, such as "Biblical creation story", "Genesis creation story", but when asked to categorize it will still say, it is a "creation myth". Again there is nothing odd or contradictory about this.Griswaldo (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
That's what I am trying to say. "Creation myth" in a scholarly context is a category, like "hound." No one says Beagles are considered to be hounds or believed to be hounds. Our article should make clear that when scholars use the term "creation myth," they are not making a value judgement, but merely assigning it to a category.--agr (talk)
Well then we agree. My point is simply that we should be able to call it a "hound" in the body of the article even if it's not in the name. So I think we're agreeing.Griswaldo (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Victor P. Hamilton is current professor of Bible and theology at Asbury College University, Wilmore, Kentucky, and a well-known source for the mainstream Christian POV, which is obviously significant to this topic. Here, he tells it like it really is:
"Many scholars would be content to interpret the Creation story or the Fall as neither history nor myth. It is not history, according to them, in the sense that Gen. 1-2 or Gen. 3 describes past events that actually happened. But neither are they myths, at least in the historical-philosophical definition of myth. The truth is that scholars disagree about the definition of the word. One recent writer (G. B. Caird) has isolated nine definitions of myth and another [J. W. Rogerson] documents twelve aspects of myth. This proliferation of definitions of myth is the reason why one scholar would look at Gen. 1-11 and say it is free of myth, while another scholar would look at Gen 1-11 and pronounce it entirely mythical." The Book of Genesis, Chapters 1-17 (part of The New International Commentary on the Old Testament) by Victor P. Hamilton, 1990, p. 56-58.
Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:57, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Til, I asked above for sources currently working as academics in mainstream universities. You've offered J. I. Packer, Robert Jenson, and Victor P. Hamilton who are not working in universities.

René Girard is a solid mainstream source. I'm not sure he's saying quite what you're presenting him as saying, but you could be right, so that's one. Are there any others? SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Slim, according to my information, they are all currently working in Universities. But even if they are not, by what policy or by what authority do you insist on holding this article to such an abnormally high standard, or presume to disqualify them on that account? I still have not got an answer to that question. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Outstanding work Til. Slim's question is indeed raising the bar above WP:NPOV, but that's not a bad thing. Even that request can be met. I don't think many academics who specialise in biblical literature would agree with Darwin's literal reading of Genesis any longer. Many, though, continue to follow Julius Wellhausen however. Darwin and Wellhausen are more relevant to this article than ten-a-penny current academics when they are simply following lines of argument forged by others. I mean no disrespect to current academics by that, it's absolutely wonderful we live in a world that can afford to employ tens of thousands of biblical scholars of all flavours.
Slim's question strikes me as an essential question, despite what I might seem to be implying above. Am I wrong to think that sources for this article should include acknowledgement of scholars who first proposed ideas, and a clear survey giving due weight to all views currently held among academics of all flavours. May I suggest someone checks out Reuven Tsur's opinion on Genesis, I'd do it myself, but I'm preoccupied with other business at the moment. Slim? Could you do that, perhaps? Alastair Haines (talk) 03:39, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

On the view that only polytheistic, pagan and/or "idolatrous" religions contain myths

You may find this from Michael Fishbane's Biblical Myth and Rabbinic Mythmaking informative or you may disregard it, but it speaks to the view underwriting many of the quotes Til has produced above. Of course in doing so it clearly also recognizes that these POVs exist:

"A striking feature of contemporary attempts to differentiate ancient Israel from myth thus often depends upon constructions that first define myth in terms of polytheistic paganism, and then juxtapose this definition to features of biblical monotheism—concluding thereby that ‘myth’ is absent from the latter. For example, on the argument that an essential variable of ancient Near Eastern paganism is the origin of the gods in a cosmic plenum, from which substance they emerge as differentiated personalities, but upon whose elemental character they are necessarily and inherently dependent, the figure of a singular God with a transcendent will, who is (apparently) distinct from the natural world to which He gave created form, is of a fundamentally different sort.20 Hereby, myth is linked with the nature gods of polytheism and totally dissociated from supernatural monotheism. Accordingly, it is presumed that any hints of myth as recognizable from the ancient Near East (in terms of divine action, imagery, or personality) can only be harmless vestiges of a figurative (or metaphorical) sort—and thus neither true nor living myth.21
But this is a self-serving and fallacious line of argument. Whether or not these characterizations of polytheistic paganism or monotheism are in any way accurate, the exclusive identification of a literary phenomenon (myth) with a specific religious or cultural form (natural polytheism) is both tendentious and tautological: the first, because the definition is arbitrary and selective; and the second, because the identification is always self-confirming, and without any means of checking its circular or redundant character. Such argumentation is also based on certain essentialist views regarding polytheism and monotheism, though it generally avoids this stigma through the pretence of comparative historical study, and conceals an old cultural animus against brute ‘myth’ (the heir of Hellas) under the cover of an analytical phenomenology of religion.22 Nevertheless, such intellectual practices reveal just how much the category of myth still serves as a container for all the cultural forms or ideologies that one has purportedly transcended (like irrationality, polytheism, and paganism)—for the sake of others assumed to be superior in kind (like reason, monotheism, or historical inquiry) and with which one identifies.23 The result is a lamentable impoverishment of the notion and nature of myth, and its formulations within biblical monotheism; but it is also a schematization of monotheism that equally impoverishes its inherent and complex features. Indeed, the upshot of much recent writing is to claim differences between monotheism and polytheism that are arguably more polemical than propaedeutic, and that need to be thoroughly reconsidered." (pp. 5-6)

This view is more mainstream, but like I said it also recognizes the other view as well.Griswaldo (talk) 12:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Take special note of this statement by Fishbane, from the above text:
  • Nevertheless, such intellectual practices reveal just how much the category of myth still serves as a container for all the cultural forms or ideologies that one has purportedly transcended (like irrationality, polytheism, and paganism)—for the sake of others assumed to be superior in kind (like reason, monotheism, or historical inquiry) and with which one identifies.
What is interesting about this statement is that it is exactly the culture warriors who find common ground around the idea that "myth" is something that has been transcended. On the one hand atheists have transcended the irrationality of myth, but conservative monotheists beat them to it a long time ago by transcending the pagan, idolatrous nature of myth. The inclination is one and the same. It doesn't take a genius to see why some people want to call something related to Judeo-Christian belief a myth and some others are so against it. These people all share the unfortunate understanding of myth Fishbane is trying to argue against.Griswaldo (talk) 13:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I would argue, and can readily supply much evidence, that the "unfortunate" understanding is actually the historically and etymologically correct one -- and that the supposedly "neutral" and "non-pejorative" definition is a complete neologism, that has never found complete acceptance. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Since the original Greek mythos does not have the meaning you are trumpeting one has to assume that you have arbitrarily decided on another historical usage as containing the "historically and etymologically correct one". You may chose to live in a past historical period if you wish Til but the encyclopedia does not have that luxury.Griswaldo (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The word entered the English language meaning "falsehood", and by that time it had already meant "falsehood" in Greek for about 2000 years. This is a matter of record. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
And as for living in the past - Yes, Bultman tried to redefine "myth" so as to encompass the Bible - but not without massive resistance that is ongoing and shows no sign of abating. Again, a matter of record. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Really? So when Aristotle discusses "mythos" he meant what the Greeks had always meant -- falsehood? That's news to me. Outside of theologians you'll be hard pressed to find scholars who do not consider part of the Bible to be exemplary of myth. You will most certainly be hard pressed to find scholars who differentiate between Biblical stories and the traditional stories of other civilizations based upon truth value -- in other words if Genesis doesn't contain a creation myth then neither does the Völuspá. If you are comfortable making the distinction based on truth value and make an appeal to scholastic authority in doing so then you're living in an era of the past. BTW, I'm not going to waste my time on this anymore so don't expect any more replies.Griswaldo (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that's an apt description of Bultmann either-he didn't try to redefine "myth" so as to encompass the Bible; it was more the opposite. He tried to redefine "theology" so as Christian belief wouldn't be entangled with or cornered by the myth he essentially conceded could be found in the Bible. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:53, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
What an outstanding quote, Gris! :))
I don't agree with the source on every point, of course, but my opinion is irrelevant.
I do agree with your astute comment that both atheist and religious POVs on Genesis as myth or as polemic-against-myth are little more than re-affirmations of their own basic foundational philosophical position. That excludes neither of their opinions, mind you, since it is quite possible that Genesis does indeed provide evidence for one or other of those positions. The actual arguments, not merely the conclusions need examination.
One thing I'm thrilled to see, however, is that even an "enemy source" acknowledges what I've been claiming at this talk page for some time: there is a widespread, not exclusively religious, view that Genesis was an anti-mythological polemic. The Genesis debate in the popular press is a 150 year out-of-date anachronism. The real contemporary scholastic debate features prominently this Genesis as polemic issue.
Fwiw, I am personally not convinced that the "polemic-hermeneutic" is the key (or even correct) approach to Genesis 1. I have actually written on that (but not published as yet). Fishbane now confirms my nervousness about that approach. I actually agree with Fishbane that it looks self-serving to claim the polemic reading of Genesis. I don't think Fishbane has disproved that reading, I think it has genuine merits, but although we must document this important scholastic opinion on Genesis, I wouldn't be surprised if scholarship provides much more satisfactory treatment over the course of future decades. Crazy, but I don't think scholars, even believers, have yet finished resolving even some basic questions regarding Genesis 1.
Great source! Great editors here! Great topic! Best wishes to all. Alastair Haines (talk) 03:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources aren't just the ones that agree with your POV.

Time for another great source for your consideration (I got plenty more)

"...How to define "myth" is another matter altogether. While most, if not all biblical scholars would agree that the word myth may denote what produces myths, or may mean the understanding of the world that is contained in them, agreement would end as soon as these generalizations were made more specific. Some would argue that myths are produced by a pre-scientific outlook and that the world-view contained in myths must retreat as science advances. Others would regard myths as the product of a way of knowing different from science, expressing truths independently of the knowledge, or lack of it, of scientific causes." -- J.W. Rogerson, "Slippery Words:Myth" in Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 63 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Til Eulenspiegel (talk • contribs) 20:02, 28 April 2010

This only proves one thing. Relativism is destroying academic standards. The above paragraph is meaningless without more context.--LexCorp (talk) 05:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, I couldn't reproduce the whole thing, but you're welcome to look it up. The gist of the article "Slippery Words:Myth" is that there has never been and never will be (other than "hooray for our side" pretense) any such thing as "mainstream" in academia on controversies, like which parts of the Bible, if any, fit which definition of "myth", and what this is really supposed to mean anyway. Most scholars are honest enough to admit when something is controversial, but wikipedia tries to pretend it's all been happily resolved now (without furnishing proof) which reminds me of Old Soviet Scientific Method - prove your point by blackballing anyone who doesn't buy into your hypothesis. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The Genesis creation myth is a myth by definition. No amount of intellectual masturbation will change that. It is that simple.--LexCorp (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
By whose definition? Oh yeah, that's right - yours. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
read the fisrt page of your so scholarly and renown source [1].
"A myth is a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." -- Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 1 THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE
also on the particular essay you use:
"Another group of scholars vitally concerned with the nature of myth is theologians. Their approaches differ from those of students of comparative religion generally insofar as they tend to be especially concerned with the Bible. If one accepts that myth are contained in the Bible, particularly in the OT, then it is easy to see why theologians have been compelled to consider the nature of myth."-- J.W. Rogerson, "Slippery Words:Myth" in Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 62 [2]
Same source stating that only a subset of scholars (theologians) do not a priory consider GS a myth but nevertheless must consider the study of myths as it is blatantly obvious that the GS is a myth.--LexCorp (talk) 12:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Addendum:
Q1 Is the Book of Genesis a sacred text?
A1 Yes
Q2 Does is explain how the world and man came to be in their present form?
A2 Yes
Conclusion: The Genesis creation myth is a myth by simple definition.--LexCorp (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
LexCorp — The conceptualization of the subject matter of this article deserves treatment in the body of the article. That is where all such conceptualizations should be arrayed alongside and against one another. That is where a neutral point of view can be achieved. But a title is only for identifying an article. That is already accomplished by the inclusion of the two words: Genesis and creation. "Myth" is not necessary in forming a title. Is it? Bus stop (talk) 15:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
That is a strange argument. "Narrative" is used, thus why not the more precise, scholarly and encyclopedic well sourced "myth" instead. It does look like this is the latest attempt by a group of editors to change Wikipedia contents on PC grounds and not on encyclopedic standards. Myth is the correct term and does not breach any of the core WP policies.--LexCorp (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
It's been said so many times. "Myth" is not more precise, especially as the public generally understands myth to mean false. Changing the title to "myth" was an attempt by a group of editors to change Wikipedia contents, and thankfully, they have been stopped.Mk5384 (talk) 17:41, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
"The Book of Genesis" is a myth and a narrative. "The Fall of the House of Usher" is a narrative but not a myth. Thus which is the more descriptive and precise term? Changing the title to "myth" was an attempt by a group of editors to change Wikipedia contents in order to improve its quality.--LexCorp (talk) 17:55, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
More precisely, the Book of Genesis contains myth, including the Genesis creation accounts, but the argument that the entire book qualifies as myth-I haven't come across that claim much. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh, stop. It's a myth according to some, and a narrative according to all. The only people who want to use myth in the title are those who only agree with the some. That's called POV. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 18:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia editorial policy is not dictated by relativism. The genesis creation myth is both a myth and a narrative by simple definition. The title should describe the subject of the page. The title "Genesis creation myth" is a more descriptive title than "Genesis creation narrative". The NPOV policy is irrelevant to this discussion.--LexCorp (talk) 18:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The article title does not need the focus that you are calling for. Nor is it advisable. We need not choose a title that narrows the focus of Genesis chapters one and two to the treatment of it as a "creation myth." It is not called that in some quarters. There are ambiguities and dissenting opinions on what Genesis chapters one and two is about. All that is called for in a title is the adequate identifying of an article's subject matter. We don't need to characterize it. If characterizing it (in this case as a "creation myth") is not necessary as far as adequately identifying it, then that finer characterization is counterproductive because it narrows the focus of the article. Bus stop (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

LexCorp, it may be helpful for you to read the information message at the top of this article. Your edit summaries on other pages (for example calling the use of narrative "a farce,") your edit warring on Adam ( 4 reverts in less than 24hours, all trying to hide the title of this article which is censureship), and your offensive language towards me on your talk page (you wrote, "Ok bite me"), all make it hard for me to Assume Good Faith, when I see you starting to stir the pot here. For your information, the message atop reads:

"Please note that restarting a debate that has already been settled may be taken as "asking the other parent", disruptive and even tendentious, unless there is some evidence that consensus has changed or is likely to change."

SAE (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

As I have said, atheist fundamentalists are every bit as dangerous as religious fundamentalists. Fortunately, sanity has prevailed here.Mk5384 (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I would also like to note, that these people must be allowed to say their peace. Whilst we were in the process of getting the title changed, many made that same, "the debate has been settled" argument, as grounds to attempt to force us to stop.Mk5384 (talk) 19:28, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I will abide by consensus for now but I would like to point out that this change reduces the quality of Wikipedia for the reasons stated above. This is nothing more than a compromise to appease those (uneducated) that perceive an attack to their faith when there is none. Wikipedia should be an education tool not a safe heaven for the hypersensitive uneducated masses. In the end this edit is nothing more than the preference of cheap political correctness by the page editors over encyclopedic standards.--LexCorp (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
LexCorp if you cherish education and reason so much my suggestion is to educate yourself a bit more about what has been transpiring on this talk page instead of spouting off this knee jerk reaction. While there are certainly a few avowedly religious people who have openly expressed their dislike for "myth" based on claimed "offense" there are plenty of others who have gone to great lengths to explore the title question in terms of actual academic usage, and the old title didn't cut the mustard. The new one isn't the best option either. The best options by far, based upon the empirical investigation of academic usage, were "Biblical creation story" and "Genesis creation story". This appears to be the closest were're going to get to "story", and indeed "narrative" and "story" are synonyms.Griswaldo (talk) 20:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I am a Yale alum. What, exactly, would qualify me as "educated" to your desired standards?Mk5384 (talk) 20:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone who understands the implied definition of myth in this article and recognizes that the definition of the Genesis creation myth as a myth is substantially superior and more descriptive than defining it as a narrative.--LexCorp (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I do understand it. The general public, however, often does not. The people who insisted on "myth" being in this title know this, and as such, are POV pushers to the max.Mk5384 (talk) 22:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
ABsolute complete utter total irredeemable bullshit. I am a church-going Christian, I am off to spend the weekend singing music to the glory of God by Bach, Schütz and Pachelbel, and I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the term "creation myth" because that's what it is, technically and factually. It is part of Christian mythology, a mythology to which, in the main, I subscribe. Guy (Help!) 22:30, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Guy do you have to resort to this kind of language? I'm very happy about your own personal opinion about these passages but if you're arguing for using the "Genesis creation myth" title then your opinion that this the most common way to refer to these passages is not reflected in scholarly use. "Genesis creation story" and "Biblical creation story" far surpass it. It grows beyond tiresome to listen to all the opinionated voices here. Do some research and educate yourself on this topic, especially if you're gonna come by here and use terms like "bullshit" to denigrate those people who have actually spent some time doing that research. I'm fine with ignorance but belligerent self-rghteous ignorance starts getting offensive. If you have nothing to say but "you guys are full of horseshit because I'm a Christian and I don't agree with you" then I really wonder what you're adding to this discussion. I'm not a Christian, nor a Jew, nor a Muslim, but who cares? And you know this story wasn't originally Christian either ... but apparently that's all people like you seem to care about. How this title change must only be about appeasing conservative Christians right? Wake up. That's not it. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 01:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Ditto, that kind of stuff only makes it very evident that you're really just pushing your own pov and do not actually know or care what the scholarly sources have to say. Griswaldo has said it right. SAE (talk) 01:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I, personally have no problem with the term either. What I do have a problem with, is the fact that it is intentionally misleading.Mk5384 (talk) 22:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
There is an objective problem here: the obviously real fact that some people think that it is factually intentionally misleading. That is entirely contrary to WP:AGF. DVdm (talk) 23:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I found the previous title contrived and gratuitous. It is easier to call this "Creation according to Genesis" than it is to call this "Genesis creation myth." There is such a thing as "naturalness" in a title and there is such a thing as a "forced" title. "Genesis creation myth" sounds like someone had constipation but finally got it out. Bus stop (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
It may, initially be contrary to AGF, but read some of the things that some of the pro-myth people have said, and you'll see that there isn't a lot of GF going on there. Intentional, or not, "Genesis Creation narrative" makes it much more clear to the average reader.Mk5384 (talk) 23:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Mk5384 you conceded my point that this is sacrificing encyclopedic standards over political correctness. Point me to the WP policy that says we must do so. My hope is that those average readers, by reading Wikipedia, lift themselves from that status into a more educated one.@Bus stop that is your personal opinion. Not very strong argument me thinks.--LexCorp (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
WP:UCN. Thanks for asking. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 02:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
That policy clearly states we should follow the reliable sources. The Google search result is an amalgamation of all sources whether reliable, unreliable or irrelevant. A proper survey should only take into account the reliable sources. Where does it states that we must sacrifice encyclopedic standards over political correctness?--LexCorp (talk) 12:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Encyclopedic standards shouldn't involve using the title as a pulpit. The purpose of the title is to identify the article. It is counterproductive to add qualifiers to a title after it has already accomplished its role as an identifier of the article. Preachiness in the title is not an encyclopedic standard. I feel that titles should cleanly identify articles. Evenhandedness is an encyclopedic standard. That calls for leaving out tendentious and unnecessary information. Bus stop (talk) 15:26, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Your logic is defective. "narrative" is also a qualifier and a less descriptive one too. Wikipedia does not preach. Hopefully it educates. Your assumption that the use of "myth" is tendentious can only be the result of your inability to assign the correct implied meaning of the word when used in conjunction with "Genesis creation".--LexCorp (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I have read this entire thread and I want my money back. It seems to be completely pointless. The name of this article was changed from Genesis creation myth (the creation myth contained in Genesis) to Genesis creation narrative (less descriptive, but also less likely to enrage American Christians who are not used to their religion being treated on equal terms with others). The term creation myth was effectively moved from the first sentence of the lead to the second. Now what is this discussion about? Are we back to the old attempts to remove the term creation myth from the lead, and then presumably from the article, entirely? Or is this just an abuse of this talk page as a discussion forum? Hans Adler 13:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure there is a little bit of both going on. There is absolutely no reason to remove "creation myth" from the introduction. In fact I'm still in favor of putting it back into the first sentence myself. This particular discussion is pretty pointless if you ask me and people should just move on.Griswaldo (talk) 13:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure that these "American Christians who are not used to their religion being treated on equal terms with others" will not rest before the word is entirely eradicated from this article. You see, they don't have a religion to be treated on such terms - they have a unique religion aka The religion. They have taken the title - then they take the first sentence, after that they take the lead. Finally they will take the article, to be followed by removing every reference to Genesis from the Creation myth article, or at least go for its title. DVdm (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Did you even read the lead before you posted? did you even know what this article was titled for years before it was switched to a pov? do you have anything to offer to this article but your thoughts of intolerance of people who are different than you? how many times do people have to tell you that they are not Christian, and I am certainly not American. Try looking down somewhere into the body of the article and adding some worthwhile content, that would be helpful. SAE (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Just follow the difs I provided. They speak for themselves. No further comment. DVdm (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
really? that's your answer? i suggest you follow your own diff and read them. you are full of contradictions. plus you called me a name which is inappropriate. putting it in someone elses quotes before you do it is is only hiding SAE (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
DVdm, you missed the last thing that SAE did here [3]. I have news for you and Hans. Most religious people do not consider "their religion" to be equal to or the same as those of others. That liberal version of "religion" is itself a modern Euro-American notion. I'm also baffled by the continued use of this culture wars type rhetoric when many of the ardent non-mythers here aren't even Christian. When you are unable to look at this discussion through a lens other than that produced by "American" culture wars tropes, which pit religion against science, conversation becomes hopeless. Of course it is ironic that you are all slaves to that discourse in the first place. Perhaps not ironic but sad at the very least. I'm begging you all to please take your culture war somewhere else. And if you don't think you're taking part in it consider that there are two tango partners in "us against them". Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 14:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Just for the record, I tend to categorize some of the European fundamentalist Christians under what Hans described as "American Christians who are not used to their religion being treated on equal terms with others" - you know, the "EO" and such. But never mind, I think I'll watch from the sideline for a while. Cheers - DVdm (talk) 15:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
My point was of course not that they don't consider their religion equal to others. My point was, and this is where their being American comes in (the paradox of some of the most provincial people in the world using a world language and the internet), that they are not used to others treating their religion as equivalent to other religions. They are so much used to preferential treatment for their religion that they are deeply upset when they don't get it. To some extent we must take this into account, but not too much. Hans Adler 15:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, that they are "deeply upset when they don't get preferential treatment", is entirely their problem, and what they really need to overcome this, is education, which they should be able to find in an encyclopedia. Not in this one apparently. DVdm (talk) 15:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you have a source for Americans being "some of the most provincial people in the world"? Bus stop (talk) 15:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Sources are needed for statements in articles - not on talk pages. DVdm (talk) 15:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
The reasoning here takes straw man argument to new heights. Virtually no one is arguing from a point of view of "religion" except those preaching about "creation myths." The hallmark of religious zeal, in my opinion, is its inability to put concepts into alternative words. Those smitten with religious passion latch onto buzzwords. Creation myth is a valid concept. But it will be just as valid in paragraph three as paragraph one. And it will be just as valid in paragraph one as in the title. Bus stop (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Ok, there you go DVdm, you got your way. My lead is now reverted. Creation myth is now out of the lead. that's what you wanted right?... oh, no wait a minute. that NOT what you wanted. you actually wanted my lead. hmm... so then why were you name calling me? were you just arguing for the sake of arguing? either way, you get what you asked for, and story is back in the lead. SAE (talk) 14:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Put "creation myth" back into the first sentence

With all due respect to those who don't like this phrase the creation myth article should be linked immediately here. By what rationale were we not doing so? It is the entry that describes the kind of story that we are dealing with here.Griswaldo (talk) 13:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I think "Creation Myth" is too general a term to default to the Judeo-Christian article describing the specific Genesis account. As has been pointed out above, there are several creation myths and we should respect them all. Padillah (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I've cut quite a bit out of the lead -- don't worry, it's all still there, I've just moved it down. I am going to be expanding the lead, bases on the content of the article now. Just edit conflicts were getting in the way, so we only have a short lead right now. I think that should suffice for most of the users here? SAE (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I put "creation myth" back in the first sentence, but I changed your change back. It's more than POV to start with a disclaimer about how the subject of the article is viewed and only at the very end to describe the subject itself. You say what a thing is, and then you say stuff about it. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 14:41, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
"myth" is a description of the subject itself not a POV.--LexCorp (talk) 14:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Creation myth is no longer in the first sentence after your change so your first claim is perplexing. Creation myth is a description of the thing, as LexCorp says. From the current introduction of that entry -- A creation myth or creation story is a symbolic narrative of a culture, tradition or people that describes their earliest beginnings, how the world they know began and how they first came into it. Using additional characters to describe the same thing strikes me as simply avoiding saying that term in the first sentence. If there is a good reason to do so let's hear it but the current argument doesn't make sense to me. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 14:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, yes, it's in the second sentence. Even so, both you and LexCorp are mistaken. "Creation myth" is one term that's used by scholars to describe the contents of Genesis 1-2. And that should be noted. It's one of the reasons I changed the text back from "story" to "creation myth". But... maybe I can give you a semi-useful analogy (my high school math teacher used to say "there's no such thing as a good analogy", but maybe this will suffice). Consider the article on Switchblade knives. See how the first paragraph gives a physical description? Do you think it would be reasonable to start that article "A switchblade knife is a very dangerous weapon. It is a type of knife with a folding or sliding blade." No matter how many sources may exist for it being a dangerous weapon, it makes no sense to state that first before even telling people what it is.
The Genesis creation narrative is the biblical story of the beginning of the earth, life, and humanity. I mean, forget what people say about it: this is a basic description of it, like an object you'd pick up. What can we say about it? It is considered by many scholars to be one of several Ancient Near East creation myths. It is apparently extremely important to some editors here that this be viewed as tantamount to a physical description. That it is nothing other than a creation myth. But that's not the case. First of all, Judaism has always viewed it as much more than even a description of the creation. But leaving that aside, creation myth is one way to describe the biblical story of the beginning of the earth, life and humanity. As such, it's subordinate to the fundamental identity of the thing. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
That's not a good analogy. What you're saying now is more akin to this -- A switchblade is a sharp weapon which can be used to injure or kill other people. According to many people it is a dangerous weapon. It is redundant to use extra characters to fully describe this as a creation myth and then in the next sentence to restate that it is a creation myth. Please read the entry creation myth and tell me whether or not your favored description doesn't fit this definition.Griswaldo (talk) 16:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Lisa, what I believe Griswaldo is saying is "creation myth" means is "story of the beginning of the earth, life, and humanity" so saying the Genesis Creation myth is the biblical story of the beginning of the earth, life, and humanity is redundant. It's like saying a golf ball is a ball used in golf, it doesn't help and only makes the article more verbose. Padillah (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Padillah, that is exactly what I was trying to convey.Griswaldo (talk) 19:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Compare versions

SAE version:

Lisa version:

Why do we need to describe what a creation myth is "story of the beginning of the earth, life and humanity" and then link to creation myth when a simple link does the trick right away?Griswaldo (talk) 14:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think the delicate tweaking you've done this morning is heading in the right direction. Torchiest (talk | contribs) 15:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't like either version: "is considered by many scholars to be" is silly. There is no question that it fits the definition, and there is a scholarly consensus that it is a creation myth. Therefore we just use plain language and say that it is a creation myth. We don't say "Barack Obama is considered by the political establishment to be the current President of the United States. Especially not in the lead. This implies doubt that simply doesn't exist in any reasonable way. Hans Adler 15:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. When I reinstalled SAE's version I removed that part. [4].Griswaldo (talk) 15:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Full disclosure: I was 83.43.21.24. Strange as I was logged in when I commented on Lisa's POV assertion above. Anyway I could agree with this [5] version in principle. I still think the article title is not proper and a PC compromise lowering WP quality.--LexCorp (talk) 15:37, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Compare reference works

D. R. W. Wood and I. Howard Marshall, New Bible Dictionary, 3rd ed. (Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1996), 239. (this one comes at it from a different angle; also mainstream;)

  • The opening chapter of Genesis is a majestic festive overture to the whole Bible. It introduces the reader to the two principal actors in the biblical drama, God and man (i.e. mankind, Heb. ʾadam), and sketches the main elements in their relationship. We meet God, the almighty creator of all that exists, but also the triumphant climax of his work, man, made in the divine image to rule over God’s world on his behalf. We sense God’s concern for man’s well-being as he assigns the plants for his food. This divine concern is even more apparent in Gn. 2, where the Lord God provides a garden for man to dwell in, animals as his companions, and a wife as his perfect counterpart. SAE (talk) 16:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to the Bible

  • The biblical accounts of the creation of the world have their background in ancient Near Eastern mythology, in which creation is often depicted as the deity's victory over the forces of chaos, represented by threatening waters, as a result of which the god is established as a supreme king. A large number of references (e.g., Pss. 74.12–17; 89.9–13) show that this concept was well-known in Israel also. Its immediate source was probably Canaanite mythology, and it was particularly associated with the Jerusalem Temple, where it seems likely that God's victory over primeval chaos and his royal enthronement were celebrated in a great annual festival.Griswaldo (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Oxford's A Dictionary of the Bible:

  • The biblical myth of the origin of the universe. There are two accounts in Genesis of the creation by God. Neither deals with the question whether the creation was out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo); the first (Gen. 1: 1–2: 3) which was compiled later, the P source, supposes the pre‐existence of an abyss of infinite and formless waters, a chaos out of which God creates order; in the second, and earlier, story, the J source, God forms Adam from the soil of a damp, barren plain (Gen. 2: 6) but there is nothing about an existing chaos of waters.Griswaldo (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to World Mythology:

  • The creation myth of Genesis in the Torah, the first part of what Christians call the Old Testament section of the Bible, is, in fact, at least two myths influenced by various Middle Eastern traditions and circumstances. The first myth appears in Genesis 1:1–2:4a. Here the world's origins are outlined from the point of view of priestly scholars (the so-called P authors) experiencing exile in Babylon in the sixth century B.C.E. These scholars portrayed a mighty God, Elohim, who created a perfect world and created humans in his image.Griswaldo (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Oxfords's A Dictionary of Creation Myths:

  • For Jews and Christians the Bible is the holy word of God of which Genesis is the first book of five (the Pentateuch or Torah). Genesis contains the creation myth that forms the basis of the Judeo‐Christian tradition. Some have seen Genesis as a continuous, uniform story, with Genesis 1:1–2:4a outlining the scheme of the world's origin and Genesis 2:4b–4 carefully painting a more detailed picture of humanity's creation. It appears, however, that the book contains two distinct stories crafted by different hands, strongly influenced by the historical climate experienced by the authors and reminiscent of other ancient Near Eastern stories of creation (see also Wisdom).Griswaldo (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion:

  • Creation. The question of how the cosmos and its workings [...] came into existence has preoccupied all cultures and given rise to a large number of "creation myths."

DISCUSSION

  • Comment on New Bible Dictionary: Can a source be deem reliable when their stated Purpose is "As an extension of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA, InterVarsity Press serves those in the university, the church and the world by publishing resources that equip and encourage people to follow Jesus as Savior and Lord in all of Life."? It looks to me that this is not scholarly work but rather evangelical hubris (more like propaganda or POS).--LexCorp (talk) 15:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
whew. you have saved this article. we'd hate to have a religious article sourced in a religious article now wouldn't we, that would be a disaster. i guess that means we should go through and delete every reference there is in the article too then. too bad, because so many of them are mainstream and well respected. but the problem then is, where could we find an author who does not come with their own presuppositions? Every person has presuppositions, that's common sense. So, that will be hard, with every author having their own pov and all. i think the solution will have to be that we select the mainstream pov's from reliable sources, and use them (our pov's don't count, but a scholar's pov is what we need). yes, that is the answer. oh, look, New Bible Dictionary is written by many reliable sources, that's a good one to use. any others? SAE (talk) 16:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
sorry, that is a little sarcastic. but my point remains the same. SAE (talk) 16:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
New Bible Dictionary is not a reliable source. It is hubris. Maybe if you look for comparative religion scholars instead of evangelical theologians you will find more reliable sources and less hubris.--LexCorp (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I am not here to argue. WP:IRS will answer all your questions on what is, or what is not, considered to be a reliable source. I suggest that you consult it. SAE (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Lex, you just aren't getting it. Let me state this as clearly as possible: When 45% of the world's scholars hold to one pov, 35% to another, 15% to another, and 5% to a variety of others, then in an wikipedia article we must included source and content from each of the major scholarly pov's. Surely you understand this. SAE (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
What other POV? See my comment below.--LexCorp (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I think I see part of the problem here. LexCorp (correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't consider the scholarship of religious groups to be reliable sources about themselves. If, for example, Maimonides says something about Judaism, or Jerome says something about Christianity, it doesn't constitute scholarship. Only those things which come out of modern academia and/or peer reviewed journals constitute scholarship. Is that your position, Lexcorp? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It is not that black and white. But certainly a theologian from a particular faith carries much less weight than someone approaching the subject from a complete impartial side. If at all possible non-faith bases. Thus comparative religious studies conducted by secular academics is preferable than evangelical works from theologians with a vested interest in a particular faith.--LexCorp (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Lex, The New Bible Dictionary is NOT reliable as a source for what it is saying to be stated without attributation. But it IS reliable as a source for stating what one significant POV is. Reliable sources noticeboard will happily explain this policy to you further, if you're having trouble understanding the difference I'm talking about. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:13, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Does the The New Bible Dictionary state explicitly that the Genesis creation myth is not a myth? What other significant POV? Omission is not a POV?--LexCorp (talk) 16:26, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh, for crying out loud. Can you find me a reliable source that says the wheel was not invented by Oogoo the caveman? That was his name, incidentally. See, I can claim that, and since you can't find a single source that specifically says Oogoo didn't create it, then I can say it's the consensus. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Apples and oranges Lisa. Your claim necessarily implies that others would disagree about "creation myth" being the best descriptor. The only way to know if that is true is to see active disagreement.Griswaldo (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Nonsensical comment above from Lisa. There is plenty of RS stating the Genesis creation myth is a myth and simple definition does suffice in this case too. Either you dispute that one of the meaning of the word "myth" is "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." or you dispute that the Book of Genesis is a sacred text or you dispute that it tell how the world and man came to be in their present for. If you do not dispute those then Genesis creation myth is a myth by definition. That there exist another POV from expert reliable sources that dispute this or do not agree with this is a farce.--LexCorp (talk) 16:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Among those who use the term "creation myth", what they refer to is "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." Not everyone uses that term. Also, you should look the word "hubris" up in the dictionary. I'm just saying. And you should apologize for the "nonsensical" insult. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Hubris means extreme haughtiness or arrogance. Hubris often indicates being out of touch with reality and overestimating one's own competence or capabilities, especially for people in positions of power. Exactly the meaning I want to use. Arrogance of thinking that the mere fact of being a theologian is sufficient to create scholarly works and not evangelical pieces. More so when your intended purpose is to preach to the choir. Hubris indeed. I happily retreat the nonsensical comment if it gives offense. Having said that your comment above does not form in my mind a logical conclusion given the fact that you omit that there are plenty of RS supporting "myth"--LexCorp (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Using the term as a descriptor of the otherwise named narrative is different from naming the narrative itself. As a descriptor it fits the much longer phrase you keep reinserting in-front of it. Please tell me how it doesn't. Relatedly please provide a justification for the attribution "many scholars". I see no evidence to necessitate such an attribution at all. Simply not using the term as a matter of preference does not mean disagreement with it as an accurate descriptor. That requires affirmative proof.Griswaldo (talk) 16:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't require affirmative proof at all. On the contrary, if you want to use a word that only some sources use, it must be noted as such and sourced. You're doing neither.
It is a description of creation. Some call that a creation myth. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I take that the "some" you are referring to is the English speaking population of the whole Earth. Do you agree that the Genesis creation story/narrative/text is a myth by simple definition? Because I am beginning to think I speak another English language different from the one you speak. I learned mine in the Scottish border. Maybe that's the problem.--LexCorp (talk) 17:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
No Lisa to the contrary. We are absolutely allowed to use synonyms, to paraphrase and to summarize what scholars do. All scholars do not have to use the exact phrase. If that were a requirement this encyclopedia would have failed eons ago. It is reasonable to use synonyms, to paraphrase and to summarize unless there is evidence that this activity is misrepresenting someone or some group of people. Once again we'd not be able to write an encyclopedia if this were not the case. You have to provide the evidence that this term is contested by a significant amount of scholars before we start playing fast and loose with language like "many scholars". This is exactly what Slimvirgin was asking for above.Griswaldo (talk) 16:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
If you're going to insist on using the word "many" in the lead, you'll need to explain exactly what else the Genesis creation narrative is considered other than a creation myth. Torchiest (talk | contribs) 17:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
What, you mean, like, canon? It's an idea, I suppose... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I believe this is the link you were looking for. And if you feel the need to describe this subject as religious you are more than welcome to. I believe Griswaldo was looking more for something the other scholars would call this particular story. While, yes I know most scholars would agree it is a book in the Bible, this doesn't quite address how that differs from calling it a creation myth. Padillah (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Padilla, for thousands of years, there have been Jewish sholars, Christian scholars and Muslim scholars, among others. These schools of thought did not just suddenly dissapear from the face of the Earth, either. Since when exactly (on what calendar date) was the word "scholar" redefined so as to exclude everyone who belongs to a world religion? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, find a significant number that don't believe Genesis is an Ancient Near East creation myth. The argument (from above) is to put the phrase "some scholars believe" as a qualifier for "Genesis to be an Ancient Near East creation myth". To warrent that qualification you'd have to provide that the phrase needs qualification - that there are a significant number of dissenting opinions that we need to qualify the statement. You offered to redefine it as canon but neglected to explain how this alleviates the argument that it is still regarded as an Ancient Near East creation myth by scholars as a general rule. Padillah (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It does make sense to look at the background of sources. E.g. that a book about mythology very prominently mentions the fact that the story in question is a creation myth is much less significant than that two books on the bible do that. Similarly, when a book about the bible doesn't mention it, that has some significance, but much less so if the omission happens in a context of eulogy ("majestic festive overture to the whole Bible", "We sense God’s concern for man’s well-being as he assigns the plants for his food.") rather than scholarly treatment. Hans Adler 16:46, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. If, as SAE suggests, the New Bible Dictionary is "mainstream" I doubt that it is "mainstream" in the academy. I don't say this out of specific knowledge of this work, but the language Hans makes reference to does not fit within the community of non-religious scholarship on the Bible. Within what community is this a mainstream text SAE?Griswaldo (talk) 16:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Hm, if this source indeed "serves those in the university, the church and the world by publishing resources that equip and encourage people to follow Jesus as Savior and Lord in all of Life", then the reliability is entirely irrelevant. This immediately renders the source unsuitable for the meta-context of the lead of this article. DVdm (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
DVdm, take that title up with WP:RS/N. I dare you. I already know what they're going to tell you, and it's the same thing I already told you above. "The source is reliable for purposes of establishing what a significant POV is." Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Oh, but there is nothing to be taken up with WP:RS/N. If this is really the case, then the source will not survive for what you would want it to survive. Trust me :-) DVdm (talk) 17:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
People appear to be talking at cross-purposes here, and some unnecessary friction seems to have been generated.
All reliable sources express points of view (or they'd not be worth mentioning). No source can be presumed to be neutral. Reliability and neutrality are different things. Neutrality is allowing every source to speak with due weight, without judging any of them. Neutrality is descriptive not evaluative.
Here is my neutral description of discussion above: some people think NBD is reliable, others don't; some people think the Oxford tertiary sources are neutral, others don't.
Here is my evaluative point of view: both the NBD and Oxford sources are reliable sources of their respective points of view; neither the NBD nor the Oxford sources are neutral—the NBD assumes (among other things) that God not only exists but "speaks" through the text of Genesis, while some of the Oxford sources assume (among other things) that God does not exist, or at least that he doesn't "speak" through the text of Genesis.
The NBD, like many, many other Christian and Jewish reliable academic resources does not use language the Oxford feels free to use, because that language clashes with the confessional POV of Judaism and Christianity. The Oxford sources are happy to adopt a secular POV that excludes religious PsOV. Unfortunately for us, Wikipedia is written from the neutral POV, which does not exclude any significant PsOV, and religious PsOV are trivially seen to be significant in Wiki articles on religion. That means, poor Wiki-editors like us keep on having to rework this same old issue with one-another.
The issue is not so very much a problem in this article, because, I would think, most confessing Jewish and Christian scholars actually agree with secular academics that early Genesis includes "symbolic narrative" owing some of it's character to the thought-world of its ANE neighbours. The term "creation myth" is very apt for discussion of the content of this article, even from the POV of religious writers.
I do hope people here will keep looking for ways to include all PsOV rather than establish which should be allowed. We are not here to tell readers what early Genesis is, but to tell them what the significant points of view on early Genesis are. Who are we to sit in judgment on reliable sources? Can't we trust the readers to do that? Alastair Haines (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I largely agree with this. Except that reliability is not the issue with the NBD, but rather unsuitability through bias. As a propaganda text it is clearly highly reliable, but unsuitable. Also, on the one hand it is 100% obvious --and documented-- that "the NBD assumes (among other things) that God not only exists but speaks through the text of Genesis", but on the other hand it is not at all obvious --and indeed irrelevant-- whether "some of the Oxford sources assume (among other things) that God does not exist". That is the principal difference. There is no symmetry here, not anywhere near. DVdm (talk) 18:57, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
furthermore, where does this source explicitly states that the Genesis creation myth is not a myth as defined by "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form."?—Preceding unsigned comment added by LexCorp (talk • contribs)
What I see being put forward is the question "Can we use the NBD as citation for claims in the form of 'Christians believe Eve was created from Adams rib'" as a citation that Christians believe a certain dogma I see no problem but I also see no real use because Christian beliefs are not a part of this article. It is concerned mainly with the account in Genesis and should nave little to do with belief systems. 12.193.46.150 (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)Full disclosure: this was me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Padillah (talk • contribs)
Yes, I agree. For that the NBD is highly reliable, but this is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. After all, this is not an article about an organisation promoting a religion. DVdm (talk) 19:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be relevant in this article to shed light, if sourced, on how various groups regard Genesis. That could include groups defined any way, but would mostly break down by religious leaning. That could cover any quality related to Genesis, but one quality would be its truth, falseness or related qualities, such as perhaps as whether it is regarded as an allegory. Bus stop (talk) 19:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
On the canonical question, does anyone know of any denomination or sect that has explicitly dropped Genesis from what it considers canon? If not, I think we can safely and accurately state that all these aforementioned groups currently agree on its canonicity. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Please stop fooling around

The primary reason the move request to Genesis creation narrative passed was because "myth" is a term that carries connotations of falsehood. Everyone here knows this. The dictionary supports it. Nevertheless, several editors are trying to use "creation myth" as the default description of the Genesis creation story, rather than begin with a simple and understandable description, followed by noting that it's called a "creation myth" by some scholars.

This is POV-pushing. It's also an example of bad faith. There were those who didn't want the word "myth" used at all in this article. There were those who insisted that it had to be in the title. Those of us in the middle found a compromise position where "myth" can -- and should be used -- but not in the title. The current push to position it as the defining characteristic of the account is nothing but an attempt to maneuver around to changing the title back to Genesis creation myth.

If this bad faith editing (WP:AGF means to assume good faith, unless proven otherwise; not to be blind) continues, I'm going to escalate this administratively. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Lisa stop accusing people of bad faith. I supported the name change but not mainly for the reasons you describe. I agree that the other meaning of myth causes problems in the title where there is way to contextualize and link "creation myth". However this is not a problem in the main text. I will also note that several of the name change supporters explicitly stated at various times that they fully support the use of "myth" in the content of the entry, so I'm not sure how accurate your representation is for those other than myself either. You appear to have reached an impasse in your argument above and are now threating administrative action. I don't see why that is necessary at all. Lets continue to reason and to provide evidence for our assertions and this will work itself out.Griswaldo (talk) 17:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
  • The standards for NPOV are different for a title than in the article itself: We normally use the common name, even if it is POV. And we avoid descriptive names that express a POV, even if it is the POV of the overwhelming majority. Things are different in the article itself.
  • It's not clear at all that the article was renamed because it was POV. Look at my !vote, for example.
  • We are writing an encyclopedia. Not a children's encyclopedia; if you want something like that you will be more happy at the Simple English Encyclopedia. We are writing the kind of encyclopedia whose articles start as follows:
    • The cat (Felis catus), also known as the domestic cat or housecat to distinguish it from other felines and felids, is a small domesticated carnivorous mammal [...]
    • The dog[...] is a domesticated form of the wolf, a member of the Canidae family of the order Carnivora.
    • A pneumatic torque wrench is a planetary torque multiplier or a gearbox that is mated to a pneumatic air motor.
    • In cricket, other than Test matches, One Day International matches, Twenty20 matches and First class matches, other forms of the sport do exist.
    • Magnetite is a ferrimagnetic mineral with chemical formula Fe3O4, one of several iron oxides and a member of the spinel group.
The "hard" words are no problem because in the articles they are linked. I hope this helps. Hans Adler 17:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I want to second Lisa's sentiments. There's been a long debate on this, and we decided "narrative" was more NPOV/less fractious. If we switch back to "myth" it will only cause more consternation and debate. Let this one lie for at least a month or so before claiming that consensus has changed. NickCT (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Nobody is switching back to anything. We changed the title only and this discussion is not about the title ... but about the effort to push "creation myth" out of the introduction. When I was digging in the archives of the talk page recently I found this:
If people had just listened to the editor who proposed this earlier we'd never have been put through all this nonesense. What that editor, Dab so rightfully points out is that 1) the issue was about the title only and 2) it has nothing to do with POV and ideological battles. Once again I do not think I'm the only other person to share this opinion. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
You are not the only one. My !vote was explicitly for the situation that currently exists: Title uses "narrative" and the text explains that "The Genesis creation narrative is an Ancient Near East creation myth" in the first sentence. I argued for removal from the title because the title doesn't provide enough context to defend itself from the colloquial use of "myth" whereas the lead and body have enough context to defend the use of the word. Padillah (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Again do not invoke the WP:NPOV it has nothing to do with this discussion. There is no mainstream or significant view among the reliable sources arguing that the Genesis creation myth is not a myth. Trying to portrait the RS situation as such is dishonest. The is no policy stating we should choose politically correct terminology over precise well supported terminology because it may give offense to the uneducated masses that fail to assign the correct implied meaning of a word when used in a particular context. Let's educate people not be their nannies.--LexCorp (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Griswaldo, there is no attempt to "push 'creation myth' out of the introduction". On the contrary, I've restored it to the lede a number of times so far, and I will continue to do so if people keep taking it out. Why are you representing it otherwise. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 18:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

For those keeping score, this interminable myth/not myth/kind-of-a-myth/some-say-its-a-myth debate is now about 370 pages long. It's grown about 50 pages just in this week, and just in this one article talkpage. Keep up the good work!
Meanwhile (I don't know if anyone else cares) but as it is now, the poor reader has to work tremendously hard to figure out what this article is trying to say...it isn't until the fourth section that there is even the merest sketch of the story itself, after forcing the reader through the bewildering riddle which the opening sentence now is, with nothing but titillating clues to be found there if he were but clever enough to know he must click on the three or four wikilinks "helpfully" provided, only upon returning to find further several tricks, traps, and decoys about such things as "temporal subordinate clauses" and Philo and Matthew Henry blocking his path.
This isn't an encyclopedia article-it's more like a video game. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Building on the Lead

Bravo Hans, for coming up with the perfect lead sentence, [6]. Masterpieces are born out of much adversity, and I can tell that this one is going to be no exception. Let us now move on to writing the rest of the lead. Good job all for 3/4 of a day of work. SAE (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. Hans' version states as a matter of encyclopedic fact that the account is a creation myth. It's okay to state that it's widely viewed that way, but it's POV to state it uncategorily. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm confused. Should we include in the lead that some people take it as the literal truth? Torchiest (talk | contribs) 19:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
@Lisa. It is by simple definition a creation "myth" and it is not POV to state facts.--LexCorp (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
@Lisa, you say "some view it that way", fine. What do others view it as? Padillah (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks DVdm for restoring it back to my original lead. You are confusing to say the least. But I appreciate the vote :) SAE (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Compromise

It was suggested that we use the following lede:

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the biblical Book of Genesis, is distinguished from other Ancient Near East creation myths by its monotheistic outlook.

My problem with this, of course, is the word "other". But if we take it out, we lose any identification of the Genesis story as a creation myth, and that's just as wrong.

So I'm going to suggest the following:

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the biblical Book of Genesis, is considered by many scholars to be one of several Ancient Near East creation myths, differing primarily in its monotheistic outlook.

This way, you get "creation myth" in the first sentence. I guarantee that those who want to portray "creation myth" as the unanimously accepted term will only keep this incessant battle going indefinitely. The compromise I'm suggesting is not the way I'd prefer the lede to read, but I'm willing to meet you halfway. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Who are the scholars that don't consider it a creation myth, and what do they consider it to be instead? Torchiest (talk | contribs) 19:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Quite. That's the question that isn't being answered.Griswaldo (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
No compromise. There is not Significant view among reliable sources that the Genesis creation myth is not a myth as defined by "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." There is no POV conflict here. Lets move on.--LexCorp (talk) 19:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
@ Lex, you are so wrong, that you can't even see right or reason. SAE (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
err ok. Quite an insightful remark and reasoned very well and accompanied with plenty of RS supporting your cause.--LexCorp (talk) 19:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
and your own astounding amount of sources has simply overwhelmed me. hmmm... SAE (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I like "A myth is a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." -- Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 1 but any of the others above will do for me.--LexCorp (talk) 20:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik considered it an account of creation. He never used the term "creation myth", to the best of my knowledge. Rabbi Soloveitchick is one of the major Jewish theologian/scholars of the 20th century. Rabbi Yitzchak Etshalom ([7]) refers to it as a "creation narrative", "The First Creation Story" and "The Second Creation Story". These are serious scholars of the Bible.
LexCorp, you don't own this article. Stop acting as though you do. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Let me note as well that Rabbi Etshalom is already cited as a reliable source in this article. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Please AGF. You offered a compromise. My answer is no. Does Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik deny that the Genesis creation myth is a myth as defined by "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form."?--LexCorp (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I think the answer to that question would depend on how one defined "sacred," Lex. There was a secular dimension to Joseph B. Soloveitchik's work (embodied in the concept of Torah Umadda) that might not have allowed for much delving into "sacred" understandings of this, though I don't really know. My guess would be that there would be a fairly rational approach to something like this. Bus stop (talk) 19:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Sacred as in worthy of religious veneration (as in the bible is the word of God and thus sacred). Do people here speak some English different from mine?--LexCorp (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
LexCorp, casting aspersions on others ability to speak English is not going to help anything (It may, in fact be a second language for some here, we don't know).
Bus stop, it's not up to LexCorp to define sacred, it's been pretty well defined for over 400 years. Let's use the one from the dictionary for our purposes. Padillah (talk) 20:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Again AGF. For me it is a second language! That's why I ask. Maybe my understanding of "sacred" is wildly wrong.--LexCorp (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't see much difference between the versions in this. The weasel words were removed before. The difference is just one of ordering, and perhaps some redundant elaboration, no? DVdm (talk) 19:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Lisa, it seems the problem is with the acceptance of the Genesis story as a myth. But the compromise put forward in the Title rename was that the body of the article had sufficient context to defend itself from the colloquial use of the word. So let's use that rather than continuing to dodge the word altogether. How about

The Genesis creation narrative, is a biblical description of how the world and man came to be in their present form. Found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis, is distinguished from other Ancient Near East creation myths by its monotheistic outlook. As with other technical myths there is no consensus on the veracity behind the narrative with several prominent scholars holding to a literal interpretation while others recognize the story as fictional and even an allegory to...

Padillah (talk) 20:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

"there is no consensus on the veracity behind the narrative with several prominent scholars holding to a literal interpretation" – This is outrageous creationist POV pushing. Hans Adler 21:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
In response to the question, "Who are the scholars that don't consider it a creation myth..." For example, John S. Feinberg (chair of the Department of Biblical and Systematic Theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School), in No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God", p. 575 - "Moreover, in light of contemporary attitudes that link myth with fairy tales and the imaginary, we should demur on labeling Genesis 1-2 myth." In response to the question, "...and what do they consider it to be instead?" they consider it to be historical narrative. For example, Steven W. Boyd (specialist in biblical Hebrew, Semitic Languages and Old Testament Studies) created a logistic regression model to calculate the probability that a particular Hebrew text is a narrative. He concluded that "For Genesis 1:1–2:3, this probability is between 0.999942 and 0.999987 at a 99.5% confidence level." (in "Statistical Determination of Genre in Biblical Hebrew: Evidence for an Historical Reading of Genesis 1:1-2:3") In response to the apparent request to ignore reliable sources from evangelical theologians, that is utter nonsense. They are absolutely in a position to comment on the significance and meaning of biblical texts. They don't stand alone and there should be secular POV as well, but it would be unconscionable not to let evangelicals weigh in. Ἀλήθεια 20:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Boyd is not a reliable source, and his paper is not published by any reliable publisher - it's self-published YEC nonsense. But quite apart from that, he only distinguishes between narrative text and poetry in his study. Thus, it's only an argument on the form, not on the content. Myths can be either poetic or narrative, of course. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Is anyone willing to go dig up the "note" that was attached to the word myth? Would it be an acceptable compromise to keep the unqualified term "creation myth" in the first two sentences, but with the footnote explaining the term? Ἀλήθεια 20:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It is funny that John S. Feinberg acknowledges PC reasons to not refer to the GS as myth. Instead of lecturing his students he chooses to work with their ignorance. Quite a Professor if you ask me. Anyway I digress, I will support bringing back the footnote.--LexCorp (talk) 20:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It is also funny how your immediate response is a classic logical fallacy. Anyway, I anticipated your scorn for this particular source, and offer in addition Nahum M. Sarna (Dora Golding Professor of Biblical Studies at Brandeis University), who contrasts Genesis 1:1–2:3 to the Babylonian creation account, Enuma Elish, and other extra-Biblical versions of creation: "The outstanding peculiarity of the biblical account is the complete absence of mythology in the classic pagan sense of the term." (in Understanding Genesis) Ἀλήθεια 20:53, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't like the note at all--it sits like a distracting wart on the very first line of the article, it's a patronizing "disclaimer" spoon fed to readers, and we have a wl to myth that works perfectly well-in fact, that's exactly what wikilinks are designed for. I don't know why we need to show so little faith in our own readers' reading skills--if Britannica doesn't feel the need to pander, hand-holding its readers and shielding their eyes from perfectly normal words, why do we? Professor marginalia (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)--(adding: The "note" as featured in earlier versions.) Professor marginalia (talk) 21:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
It was my hope that my previous comment could be taken as an attack to the PC argument as well as the intellectual integrity of John S. Feinberg. Seem that I failed I further point to all this Talk Page for reasons as to why the PC argument is intellectually wrong unless your stated aim is to redefine "myth". At least his moral integrity is intact as he comes clean with the real reason. Thus no Ad hominem fallacy from me. Nahum M. Sarna is using the special pleading fallacy to try to distance the GS from all other creation stories. This may fool a theist but to me it is crystal clear what he is doing. What is it in the "mythology in the classic pagan sense of the term" that is not in the GS other than polytheism?. Then again he does not explicitly states GS not to be a myth, just that it is a peculiar one precisely because monotheism. A sentence of the lead already mentions this because it is the only relevant distinction.--LexCorp (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
First, "Dora Golding Professor of..." is a title. Nahum M. Sarna is the scholar, and "Nahum" is a male name, making all of your "she" references confusing. Second, I concede that you did not specifically attack Feinberg, but you acknowledged that you hoped to attack his intellectual integrity. On what basis? Do you deny "contemporary attitudes that link myth with fairy tales and the imaginary"? I'm not suggesting you have to agree with his reasoning, but you have to acknowledge his POV. Ἀλήθεια 21:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I stand corrected. It is good to learn new things.--LexCorp (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
But I do acknowledge "contemporary attitudes that link myth with fairy tales and the imaginary" that is why someone in an education role should strive to correct that from their position of authority in these matters. John S. Feinberg chooses not to do so. To me (and this is a personal opinion no relevant to this discussion) a professor that chooses not to educate his student/reader audience loses intellectual integrity and professionalism (I can even speculate that he does so to sell more books whether by choice or pressure by publishers). The only mitigating factor really is that in my experience this now is common among all subjects and academic levels. That's is why Wikipedia is such an important education toll IMHO.--LexCorp (talk) 21:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Dumbing down Wikipedia into a Conservapedia?

Continued quarreling demonstrates lack of consensus for the latest doublespeak move from "Genesis creation myth" to "Genesis creation narrative". There's no empirical evidence to support the condescending supposition that average Wikipedia users won't understand myth's denotations and connotations. The "Creation myths" category currently contains 53 pages, only one of which is fatuously entitled a "creation narrative". Keahapana (talk) 01:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Your own comments are sufficiently condescending. Conservapedia probably asserts that Genesis is literally true. This one doesn't. Keeping this article's title neutral is not "dumbing down", it's policy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
We have moved on. The creationist POV pushing is currently for relativising the characterisation of the story as a creation myth by text that suggests there is no academic consensus for doing so. Some editors are already arguing as if the discussion was about purging the word from the lead entirely, based on its being used as a technical term. If they get the space for their nonsensical arguments, then surely there must be space for rebuttals, even if they are not of the highest quality possible. Hans Adler 08:41, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
It is a false dichotomy to state that the Genesis creation story cannot be at the same time a myth and literally true. Again "myth" correct definition as it applies in the context of this article is a "sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form". There is nothing in this definition that suggest that the myth is not historical/allegorical/the true word from God/true/false or any other interpretation or POV out there. The "myth" definition in itself is not a POV it is a simple definition describing the subject. It is obvious to anyone that the title change is a compromise to appease faith-based sensitivities thus it reflects a preference for political correctness over encyclopedic standards by the editorial body of this article.@Keahapana. So in essence the answer to your question is YES this change is dumbing down Wikipedia.--LexCorp (talk) 09:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree that it is indeed dumbing down how WP looks from a great distance - the distance from where only the article titles can be read. After all, the (now more or less stable) lead clearly states that the Genesis creation "narrative" is indeed a creation myth. This is truly bizarre :-| DVdm (talk) 09:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
It is not bizarre at all. The title is a compromise based on WP:UCN. In scholarship there are many different names used for this Biblical myth. The most common by far are "Genesis creation story" and "Biblical creation story". As you all know "narrative" and "story" are synonyms. I would prefer "story" but that's why this is a compromise. Of course if your misunderstandings were true we would look dumb, and unfortunately I can't control the ignorance of others. I do ask one thing however. I ask it a lot but I wont stop. Can we please leave this culture wars rhetoric at the door? Can we stop making this about a battle with Christians, or comparing Wikipedia to conservapedia, etc. etc. This is all ridiculously unhelpful. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 10:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's bizarre that the current "Genesis creation narrative" nonce title doesn't call a myth a myth. And yes, both "creation story" and "creation narrative" are common Christian euphemisms for "creation myth" in the Bible. However, the present discussion concerns Wikipedia title metastructure. Both creation story and creation narrative redirect to the normative creation myth. I could be wrong, but in the faith-based Conservapedia, it might be acceptable to suggest that one religion has a cosmogonic "narrative" while all others have "myths". In the reality-based Wikipedia, it smacks of cultural bias and religious intolerance. Keahapana (talk) 20:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

"Common Christian euphemisms"? Can you back that up with some empirical evidence? What't the phrase ... put up or ... ? Personal opinions and knee jerk reactions are not of interest to this discussion. Also, naming conventions like WP:UCN are mainly based on external real world usage and not taxonomies native to Wikipedia. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 22:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems obvious, but here's a quick Google Test. The first 10 ghits for "genesis creation story" comprise 3 secular websites (this WP article, Australia Yahoo Answers, Religious Tolerance twice), 1 mixed category (42 Videos), and these 5 self-described sites:

  • Biologos Forum "a group of Christians"
  • Energion "owned by Henry Neufeld, president of Pacesetters Bible School"
  • Ancient Days "based on the belief that the Bible is God's Word"
  • John Mark Ministries "Thinking Maturely about the Christian Faith"
  • Biblestudies Suite101 "active member of a non-denominational Christian church"

Also, thanks for again citing "Common names", which "Deciding an article title" lists as "Recognizable", the first of five ideal title criteria. I was referring to the fifth: "Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles." Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 00:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Except there are no similar articles with similar names. The similar articles have names like Enûma Eliš and Völuspá. The articles with "creation myth" in the name are those that are constructed in the following manner -- "name of civilization" + "creation myth". As I've stated before I would not have opposed something like Judeo-Christian creation myth. Anyway that argument fails by simply not reflecting reality. Pasting a couple of anecdotes does not amount to empirical evidence either, especially when its from Google proper. What percentage of use falls along those lines? You will also find "creation story" used in peer reviewed journals in the fields of history, sociology, etc. What is the situation within scholarship? Someone could easily counter your argument with another equally unproductive one -- that "myth" is an anti-theist euphemism for "all religious stories because they are not true". We are thankfully not guided by either conservative Christian usages of "creation story" or hardcore atheist usages of "myth". By the way I hope you see the irony in the similarity between your argument and those of the people who claim that we can't use "myth" precisely because of how that latter minority I mentioned above likes to use it. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's the sixth time you've used these Enûma Eliš and Völuspá examples to argue that most articles in the "Creation myths" category don't have similar "m-word" titles, which is true. After looking them up, I was surprised to learn they both have "creation myth" titled redirects: Babylonian creation myth > Enûma Eliš and Norse creation myth > Völuspá. Curious about similar redirect pages, I tried some WP searches (these are results for "Everything", but you might be able to refine them with "Advanced" settings). "Results 1 - 20 of 4,066 for creation myth" include 16 titles:

"Results 1 - 20 of 2,977 for creation narrative" include 4 titles:

These two section titles made me wonder how frequently "creation narrative" specifically occurs in Biblical contexts, so I Googled wiki.riteme.site for the respective phrases with/without "Bible" and "Genesis":

  • "creation myth" 958
  • "creation myth" –bible 630
  • "creation myth" –genesis 584
  • "creation narrative" 144
  • "creation narrative" –bible 46
  • "creation narrative" –genesis 34

Again, these are admittedly "anecdotal" preliminary results. I'm not nearly as familiar with this Talk page as you (4th most frequent user according to WikiChecker, congratulations), so I'll leave determining the "empirical" facts up to your expertise. Within the context of WP articles, is "creation narrative" predominantly a Christianity-specific usage? Could this explain why "Genesis creation narrative" remains a nonce title? Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 20:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Creation narrative" is not common on wikipedia and I expect it is very uncommon out there in popular culture. In scholarship, and in reference to this subject matter, it appears about as often as "creation myth". I highly doubt that it is preferred by Christian sources. Christian sources prefer simply "creation account" or "account of creation". As I stated already "creation story" is most common in scholarship and is a synonym of the current title. The stats you have brought forth regarding naming conventions here at Wikipedia including redirects is interesting but once again, let me beat the dead horse, you are not comparing things of the same kind. You have also clearly missed some redirects like Judeo-Christian creation myth which also redirects here. Do you notice how all the articles, like this one, that are actually about a specific text have redirects like Babylonian creation myth, but titles that simple refer to narratives without making any direct claims to genre. If you don't want to recognize the difference then we might as well stop the conversation. Oh and I fail to understand what you're trying to say regarding my usage statistics and this page. All the best.Griswaldo (talk) 21:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Also I note that you've dropped your argument concerning popular usage of "creation story" amongst conservative Christians. You do see how its pretty much identical to other arguments here about how we can't use "myth" at all because some people are using it specifically to mean "false story"? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought it was clear ("anecdotal" … "results 1-20") that these data are quick and dirty and not a complete list of anything. They provide evidence supporting the original suggestion that "creation narrative" and "story" usages frequently have Christian subtexts. I wouldn't drop it without some convincing evidence to the contrary. My intention was to make what you call "same kind" comparisons, one "creation narrative" title and many "creation myth" titles. In my understanding, the onomastic difference between articles like Babylonian creation myth and Adam and Eve is general group vs. specific phrase. The former titles need to include a category while the latter do not (but may have "… creation myth" redirects). Can we agree that "creation myth" generally refers to any culture or religion while "creation narrative" disproportionately refers to Christianity? It's OK with me if you want to stop this conversation. Best wishes. Keahapana (talk) 23:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

This is a WP:FRINGE disaster

I came here after seeing the discussion at Jimbo's talk page and I am disgusted. Are we really not only arguing on the obvious fact that the Genesis is a myth, but even renaming the article to hide this fact? Shame. And also, I am appalled at the amateurish way both camps debated about sources.

Let me detail. Slimvirgin shot herself in the foot in asking for "three academics": you can find three reliable academics supporting everything, no matter how crazy. In the fields of hard sciences we have Brian Josephson and Kary Mullis, both Nobel prizes, one believing in telepathy, another believing AIDS does not exist. The fact that we can quote Nobel prizes on these subjects doesn't mean telepathy or AIDS denialism are not WP:FRINGE theories. Because, what is important in depicting such subjects is what scientific consensus agrees. And such consensus is that telepathy doesn't exist and AIDS exists.

The other camp then supported some scholarly sources that explicily deny that the Genesis is a myth. Now, we have two problems with such sources. One is that they are individual authors opinions, and as such they do not define scientific consensus, so we do not solve WP:FRINGE issues. The other problem is that such opinions go mostly around the definition of the word "myth", but they do not solve the issue that seems creeping in the whole discussion, that is that using "myth" underlies somehow, semantically, that it is a false story, and there is a camp which doesn't like that.

Well, the problem is easily solved in my opinion. If we want to know if Genesis is a myth or not in the meaning of it being a true account or not of the origin of the Universe, we do not have to look at bibliologists or theologians. We already know that scientific consensus on the subject is pretty much different from the Genesis account: see big bang theory, history of the Solar System etc. Because to say if the Genesis account is the correct description of the origin of the world is a cosmological question, nothing else, and it has to be solved by cosmological scientific consensus.

Note that this has nothing to do with what is true, but with what we should present. And currently the article massively violates WP:FRINGE. This paragraph:

Scholars debate how to view and understand these early chapters in Genesis. A non-literal and non-historical reading of Genesis can have negative implications for an understanding of the New Testament, because the New Testament refers to Adam and Eve as literal historical characters (for example in Matthew 19:4).[specify] On the other hand, a literal reading of these chapters remains a primary reason for much of the opposition to the whole idea of evolution.[52]

is horrendous. 99.999% of cosmologists do not debate on how to view these early chapters. There is complete consensus on them being fictional. To give the impression that the scientific community at large debates on such a subject is a massive violation of WP:FRINGE. Of course, then, there is the issue of how theologians debate that -but the falsehood or not of Genesis is a problem of cosmology, and has to be solved by the consensus in cosmology.

That settled, we can now discuss if "myth" is the less or more correct word (in my opinion it is, also for consistency with other creation myths: but it is entirely possible that the consensus of the literature on the subject disagrees). --Cyclopiatalk 14:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I asked for three academic sources currently working in mainstream universities who explicitly say this is not a creation myth. I don't think I shot myself in the foot, because so far no one has supplied even one.
As for the section you quote, it's not referring to scientists, but to the kinds of scholars who study this (theologians presumably). Some in-text attribution would be helpful, as in "scholars such as A and B." SlimVirgin talk contribs 14:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Cyclopedia I don't disagree with any of this except I think perhaps you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. The quoted text would be fine with proper attribution - the debate is a theological one, so yes simply saying "scholars" is not appropriate. In general these Biblical passages have next to nothing to do with the modern science of cosmology. No secular scholar actually interested in this myth from a scholarly point of view could care less about whether or not they are cosmologically true. The point here is that who would assume that "scholars" included cosmologists? Why on earth would anyone assume that? Cosmologists don't concern themselves with the Biblical creation story do they? Other scholars do.Griswaldo (talk) 15:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, whether or not this is a myth has nothing at all to do with "scientific consensus." That has nothing to do with the "debate." The consensus is among mythologists, folklorists and anthropologists who study culture, not astrophysicists looking at the CMB or the Doppler effect. Professor marginalia (talk) 15:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Note how the OP is using "myth" as an equivalent to "fairy tale". That's POV-pushing, and it's the reason "myth" was replaced with a neutral term. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes but I note also that the poster acknowledges the difference and makes it clear that he's discussing that meaning of myth. Why one would want to do so in relation to this entry is a mystery (to me and others) but I don't think there is any hidden POV pushing going on here.Griswaldo (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
No, it's not hidden, it's very much out in the open. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Calling a spade a spade is POV? Should we rename September 11th Attacks to September 11th Narrative as well? Badger Drink (talk) 18:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Badger, surely you are confused. You don't mean to be comparing something that nobody disagrees on (that Sept. 11 were attacks) to something that all of history until that last hundred years, plus at least a billion people in the world still today agree on, (that Genesis is not a Creation myth). Surely that isn't what you meant to say? ... Cheers, SAE (talk) 19:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Again false dichotomy. The billion people in the world that do presumably believe the GS is not a myth in the sense of a fairy tale will no doubt believe (and will greatly defend) that instead it is a "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and man came to be in their present form." and thus a myth.--LexCorp (talk) 19:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
"All of history until that last hundred years"? Are you for real? Your worldview is ridiculously myopic, to say the least. What is it about Genesis - besides its place in your own heart, that separates it from all these other mythical accounts of creation? Badger Drink (talk) 03:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
There are countless millions who believe that Genesis is "real" in some sense, and a few scholars who don't. So which group is the "fringe"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:09, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is to reflect the views of experts. In that sense the opinion of the billion is not even WP:fringe but more like irrelevant. Pretty much like the Intelligent Design status among the scientific community which consider it to be pseudoscience and a large percentage of the USA population which consider it true or at least at par with evolution. Wikipedia as a reputable encyclopedia reflects the view of the expert majority mentioning, when WP:weight requires it, all other minority views from the rest of the experts and finally mentioning and qualifying WP:fringe views when notable.--LexCorp (talk) 15:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The policy of "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" is "to reflect the views of experts"? Can you say "oxymoron"? :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The jury is still out as to the viability of the project (but we can all agree that it is a very popular project for now). You can count me in the skeptic side more so when confronted with problems like the one we are arguing about in this very talk page.--LexCorp (talk) 16:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes Bugs, you nailed it on the head. "If only the hoi polloi would shove off and go back to letting us tell them what to think." Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Cyclopedia, thank-you for taking the time to give your thoughts, there are many things here for us to think about. However, there are three problem areas that I see with your comment:
(1) You over-state your case and use a faulty comparison. You say that (A) just because you can find a reliable source that denies the existence of Aids that constitutes wp:fringe, and (B) you can also find reliable sources that do not call Genesus a myth, therefore, (C) all reliable source that do not see Genesis as a myth must be wp:fringe. But, this type of faulty reasoning can be used to deny anything -- ie. just replace "(B) Creation Myth," for "(B) Apples are fruit," and your (C) will be that apples are not fruit. The existence of fringe sources in other, unrelated topics, mean absolutely nothing here. Each topic with its source needs to be viewed individually. You example of one Aids denier is a faulty comparison to a belief held to by at least 1 billion people. It may contradict science, yes, but if it is held by that many people, calling it wp:fringe is far overstating a case. Let's look: Fringe = "ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view." Mainstream view = "generally, the common current of thought of the majority," and "includes all popular culture". Thus you are incorrect in claiming wp:fringe. Whatever may be the problem here, an infraction against fringe is not the issue. This leads to the second major problem with your comment.
(2) You misdiagnose the current problem/discussion currently taking place over this article. If wp:fringe is not the main issue, then what is/are? There are two, closely related. First, we have a (overall secondary) concern that has created much more squabble than it's worth (although it is important): the lead sentence. There are a couple (several?) pov's that want their pov to construct the lead sentence, without recognized other significant pov's . Second, (even more important, although less talked about than the lead sentence, but related to it) is how are we going to deal with the main pov's in the body of the article? For example, you quote a sentence from the body of article and conclude that it is "horrendous" and a "massive violation of WP:FRINGE." That is incorrect. This sentence is the pov of a significant body of reliable sources, and it needs to have extensive coverage in this article. There should be no impression given (as you say this article does) that the scientific community debates it's own pov -- and I agree (although again, I believe you have overstated this as being a major problem in this article.) However, in the religious community, this sentence is valid (maybe we need to make this more clear, who's pov it is.)
(3) You do not understand the purpose of this article Overall you seem to want to set this article up as a science vs. creationism debate, and have the scientific community trump the religious. But that is not the purpose of this article -- there are plenty of articles that do that already, and they have their place. Rather this article's purpose is to examine the text of Genesis 1-2 exegetically. It deals more with the literary construction of the text, rather than its historicity. That needs to be the primary focus, or else all we have is an article that duplicates Young Earth creationism and the rest. Therefore for you to call editors to leave out reliable religious sources, who are the main contributors in the field of literary analysis in Genesis 1-2, would itself lead to the very problem that you begin with, WP:FRINGE. SAE (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment Can we stop this unhelpful commentary now (and I mean all of it ... and yes I'm a contributer to that too). Lets use the talk page to discuss things actually relevant to improving the entry. OK?Griswaldo (talk) 20:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Genesis is a myth - this is not something which should be debated, it's something true, in the same sense that the theory of evolution is true, and the same sense that it's a fact that HIV causes AIDS. At the moment, this article is suggesting that the "creationist" interpretation and the "metaphorical interpretation" are two equally valid theological interpretations of the narrative. This is obviously nonsense. The "creationist" interpretation of the myth is theologically a fringe theory, and any respectable academic theologian or anthropologist will point out the similarities between Genesis and other creation myths. We need to move all the material concerning creationism into a subsection, in the same way that AIDS denial is in a subsection of the AIDS article, so it is clear that the creationist interpretation is not part of the mainstream interpretation. Regards. Claritas (talk) 15:58, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
You're just being anti-academic. Your "so-called scholars" include the likes of Claude Lévi-Strauss and other important anthropologists and theologians. The use of the word "myth" points out the fact that the story is symbolic, whereas "narrative" implies nothing of the sort. Wikipedia shouldn't avoid offending people if by doing so it compromises the academic worth of its contents. Claritas (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Asserting that it's symbolic is POV-pushing. "Narrative" is neutral. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:43, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
This is entirely my point - it's not POV to say that Genesis is symbolic. It's true. The dissent among academic circles is so small as to make opposition to the idea that Genesis is symbolic come under WP:FRINGE. If you don't like facts, you can believe things which are wrong, but you can't censor Wikipedia because of it. Claritas (talk) 21:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Being "true" is not wikipedia policy. Being neutral is. And the article is not censored. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment Claritas, as far as the title goes "Genesis creation myth" fails based purely on WP:UCN. It is not commonly used in scholarship. The current title is about on par in terms of usage, but it has the advantage of at least being a direct synonym of the clear winners based on usage (and my top choices personally) -- Genesis creation story and Biblical creation story. It is not pro-academic to make arguments that do not reflect academic usage. Now please understand this is the title only that I'm referring to, which is supposed to reflect common names (again see WP:UCN). Within the content of the article "creationism" and academic views that treat this as a myth should not be treated as equal. I agree wholeheartedly. Despite the above mentioned common use in naming this narrative it is a fringe view not to consider this a myth. If you want to discuss how we should move forward to ensure that the entry reflects scholarship better I'm all for it. If you want to argue about the title endlessly based on false assumptions I think you should reread my last edit summary. Enough is enough.Griswaldo (talk) 22:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with the title as such, although I wasn't so confident about the validity of the arguments used (certainly "Genesis Creation myth" is used in theological circles a fair bit). My real concern is the section "Question of genre". In my mind, this article currently puts forward the idea that the creationist interpretation of it as a historical text is not a WP:FRINGE theory by discussing it seriously and comparing it to the non-literal reading. This section should not even mention literal readings, because a literal reading of Genesis is essentially theological incorrect (it's like AIDS denialism). The "Question of genre" section should either be completely removed or edited so that it is clear that all standard interpretations understand Genesis as both symbolic and metaphorical. I'm not going to be bold, because it would probably upset certain editors. I don't think any scholars of mythology would even suggest that it was meant to be studied as some sort of historical narrative. Also, treating Genesis as something which could be a historical narrative is going to be problematic, because then we have to point out how incorrect it is as a historical narrative concerning anything. Claritas (talk) 07:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, Claritas, so according to you, the current and historic position of most Christian Churches on their canon finalized at Nicea, is akin to "AIDS denialism" and the other things you compared it to, because that is the point-of-view found in your sources. Your understanding of the concept of "neutrality" is positively utopian. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Can anyone see how transparently political this is becoming? According to this hypothesis, several nations that have Christianity or Islam as their state religion are committed to doctrines that are pure myth. There are other states with no state religion, or even with doctrines explicitly opposed to these, who would just love to have it endorsed by a "neutral" source like wikipedia that these states practice "myth" and "denialism" as their official doctrine. That is why the struggle for FAIR neutrality must and will continue. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Til Eulenspiegel, I challenge you to find me one scholar of mythology who believes that the creationist interpretation is mainstream. You seem not to understand that "myth" is not being used as a derogatory term here, simply as an indication that the story is symbolic, not factual. Neutrality for you seems to mean suppression of the facts for the sake of political correctness. Claritas (talk) 11:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Til Eulenspiegel and Baseball Bugs: The point is very simple. I reinstate it again (I admit my first post was confusing). If you want to know what is the scientific consensus on any history of creation (being it the Genesis, the Popol Vuh or whatever you prefer) you don't have to ask to the billions who believe it. You don't have to ask to theologians. You have to ask to cosmologists. That's because they are the academic community which studies with objective tools this kind of problems. And current cosmology is 99.999% agreeing that what happens in the Genesis or whatever else religious book is, from a literal point of view, false. Again, you can find RS for AIDS denialism, you can find even RS for astrology and creationism if you like. This doesn't mean, again, they're not fringe views. If you don't want Genesis depicted as a myth, you don't have to argue here. You go to physics conferences, publish scientific papers and convince the scientifical community at large that the world has been created just like the Genesis (or Popol Vuh, or Quran, or whatever you prefer) says. Then you can come back with solid arguments. --Cyclopiatalk 18:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Cyclopedia -- the problem here is the usage of the term "myth". I tried to correct the WP guidelines regarding this term to indicate that it is a symbolic narrative. Of COURSE it isn't literally true. But saying what it is not is not to say what it is. And for that we have the WP guidelines regarding the term "myth" to blame. It's a simple fix: a myth is a symbolic narrative. Apollo didn't REALLY ride around in heavenly chariots, but the sun got along just fine anyway.
In any case to use "myth" with the meaning of "not literally true" is fine, but incomplete. Did God literally create the world in six days? You MIGHT find one or perhaps two editors here who hold that point of view, and they should be here along with the rest of us. But I think you are missing the point of the argument that brought us here.
There were two problems. 1) the term "myth" was not properly defined in the guidelines, and 2) even if it had been, the fact that not everyone takes this narrative as a myth makes the term a poor choice for the title.
Genesis is alternatively seen by notable sources as "myth" as well as "demythologizing polemic" as well as "false science" as well as "allegory" as well as "morality tale," etc. Genesis creation myth is no more useful a title for this article than would be Genesis creation false science or Genesis creation polemic or Genesis creation allegory or Genesis creation morality tale.
The best term is simply a "narrative" -- a term which includes and allows all of these views. And yes, it also allows those sources which have taken it to be literal (either literally true or literally false). But most sources do NOT take it literally (either true or false), but rather symbolically.
Joseph Campbell once said that to fail to see past the symbols is to sit at a fine restaurant and eat the menu. While the menu may LOOK nice, it's not very filling.
Yes, Genesis is not LITERALLY TRUE. But that's entirely beside the point. You're still chewing on the menu. Let's get on to the main course.EGMichaels (talk) 19:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Is that menu as in "the dishes available for or served at a meal; also : the meal itself"? Because, if it is, I bet you end up more that full. Every time someone tolerates factual relativism a fairy/cat/child dies. Sorry just joking. I could not resist.--LexCorp (talk) 19:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree, EGMicheales. In fact, it's not the title that bothers me more. It's the content, see the paragraph I quoted in my first post. The content makes it appear like all interpretations are equal, while they're obviously not. --Cyclopiatalk 19:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Then clearly identify a tangible problem with the content and propose a tangible solution to that problem. What bothers me ... and a great number of other editors who are hoping we can go back to actual work ... is all this nonsense discussion of issues that have no direct bearing on the actual entry. Let's talk about the content in entry and how you propose to fix the many things you clearly think are broken.Griswaldo (talk) 21:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I identified it above: To give the impression that the scientific community at large debates on such a subject is a massive violation of WP:FRINGE. . That is what the article does currently, see the example section I quoted. --Cyclopiatalk 22:28, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
No such impression is given in the article anywhere, whatsoever. When referring to "scholars" in an article about a religious narrative nobody should be assuming that this includes scientists. And indeed no one would assume so. I remain perplexed by why you are assuming so.Griswaldo (talk) 11:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Remove POV-tag?

By the way, can we remove the POV-tag from the article? It looks like we have something stable. DVdm (talk) 09:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be one editor supporting the tag and s/he added it in the first place. Til let's discuss the need for this tag here.Griswaldo (talk) 10:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, It looks like we still have one pov-pusher here (Til Eulenspiegel), so perhaps we should leave his POV-tag until he settles down. DVdm (talk) 10:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Til lets discuss the version you like best on the talk page as well. Right now it appears to be only you and Lisa who prefer her version of the lead. You cannot force this lead down everyone else's throats when there are just two of you. Lets discuss the matter on the talk page.Griswaldo (talk) 10:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Point of order: DVdm, please consider addressing text rather than editors in Article talk space. Problems with conduct of individuals can be handled at User talk space. For every POV action there is an equal and opposite POV censorship. Neutrality renders such conflict unneccesary. Peace. Alastair Haines (talk) 04:05, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, OK. Everything looked quiet and peaceful now, but see below. DVdm (talk) 12:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
He he, I know what you mean. I could be wrong, but I think people are making more progress than it might seem. Can't make an omlette without breaking eggs they say, but I agree with you, we don't want any broken bones here. ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 15:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone here interested in a 'compromise way forward'?

Frankly, I am a little perplexed. After yesterday, now I am not sure all parties here are even "interested" in finding a compromise.

Here are some excerpts I have reformatted to show the latest attempt, and the results (or frustrating lack of same).

Scene 1 - from Jimbo Wales' talkpage:

  • Griswaldo: [...] We should not be saying "many scholars ..." when referring to a position that is very rarely challenged by anyone. This gives off a false impression and hurts our credibility. If anything I could see an argument for including the opposing position with the disclaimer, "some Christian theologians ..." or something of that nature. [...] Griswaldo (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Jimbo: [...] he did meet the objection quite persuasively. Can he produce 3 academics who are currently employed as academics who take a particular position? Yes, he can. Not only that, but they didn't just say something ambiguous and in passing but addressed the question head-on.
I think your tentative proposal here for a compromise way forward sounds promising. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
[...]
  • Me: After re-reading all the above carefully, I caught that Griswaldo suggested "some Christian theologians" and Jimbo said it looked promising as a tentative compromise way forward. So just being very bold here, I'm going to try that out and see how it goes... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:45, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, I didn't realize it was edit-protected... "Never mind!" Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • DVdm: No problem. You can be bold on the talk page. DVdm (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Scene 2 - DVdm's talkpage:

  • Okay, how about if I propose something like "Apart from some Christian theologians, most current scholars consider it to be a creation myth [See #questions of genre below]" - as a possibly promising compromise ... ? Could you live with that? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Komaan Til, niet hier. Ik bedoelde ginder. DVdm (talk) 18:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • You know I don't speak Dutch, right? But I was able to translate your reply with the assistance of Google translate. Just wanted to sound you out about it first, old boy. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:29, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Didn't know. Thought you were Dutch. I vaguely recall you correcting an edit you made when not logged on, and replacing the (Netherlands based) IP with your name. Could have been someone else. It was a while ago. Sorry. DVdm (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • No prob, but no, never been to the Netherlands yet... So what do you think of the proposed compromise wording? Or would you tweak it? btw nice to see on this page that you like Frank Zappa, I have also been a fan of his... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I'm really not interested in this over here. Better take it thataway. DVdm (talk) 22:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Til Eulenspiegel (talk • contribs)

There's been plenty enough edit warring already. I don't recommend that anyone try to be bold here--hash it out here first. The edit warring has got to stop. Professor marginalia (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I have no problem in summarizing the whole section 4 of the article into the lead. In fact the lead is meant to do so. But pointing out the Cristian theology interpretation in the sentence that defines the subject is against WP:Weight and WP:Lead. Again that Genesis creation myth is a myth (in the sense of sacred narrative) is not a POV but a simple definition. If Til can admit that then I see no problem because hopefully the summary of section 4 will point out the Cristian theologians position as well as all others for that matter.--LexCorp (talk) 14:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The truth is that it is not a "simple definition", it is a POV that numerous sources in the field do not share, as has been adequately demonstrated. That is precisely what this is all about. If it were a simple definition and not a POV, there would be no disagreement among sources. It is a POV definition first proposed, quite controversially, by Rudolf Bultman, but it is anything BUT a "simple definition." Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
No. Rudolf Bultman's POV was that a priori analysis of the text was necessary to determine the true message of God by evaluating which parts were true and which allegorical. Not that the whole was necessarily allegorical or untrue. Then again he was primarily concerned with the New Testament. Yet all this is irrelevant because he did not invent the word 'Myth' nor was he authority to redefine it. As I have already explained multiple times the Genesis creation myth could be the literary true story, line by line, of the actual events of the creation of Earth and Humanity. True in facts, events, and the correct form of the intended message of God to humanity and still it will be a myth because the myth definition does not pass judgment on the veracity of the myth itself. Til you seem to be unable to disassociate the multiple meanings of the word 'myth' but the facts are that in all languages words have more than one meaning and there must be some work done by the user of the language to infer the correct one for each word in each context. You seem to be incapable of doing so with the 'Myth' word.--LexCorp (talk) 14:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Has it been "adequately demonstrated"? The Sarna quote for example. I haven't read it in its full context, but I recognize the basic argument. There has been much written about the "demythologizing" of Genesis 1 (a claim I've never seen made about Genesis 2-it's not "demythologized" by this analysis). It refers to the kind of de-anthropomorphized, spare revision of older Babylonian myth, one which is written as the opening chapter of a patriarchal 'history' whereas the Babylonian was more concerned with its 'political' implications. The monotheist argument distinguishes it from the Babylonian myths--but not all myths everywhere. Creation myths don't have to be polytheistic - there are many monotheistic creation myths. In other words, I'm not sure that every argument like this, that distinguishes Genesis from Enuma Elish, qualifies as a claim Genesis creation is not a "creation myth". Professor marginalia (talk) 14:35, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
You're not sure, scholars aren't sure, at least the serious ones I've read make it abundantly plain there is major room for doubt. So that's easy enough to reflect in the wording. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
What do you mean "doubt"? There's no "doubt" involved-disagreement maybe, but it's like saying there's "doubt" whether to categorize a painting as "modern" or "contemporary". There is no "real" answer out there as yet to be uncovered. In just three short, straightforward sentences, list why Genesis creation would not qualify as a "creation myth" to some. Thanks. Professor marginalia (talk) 15:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
It should be perfectly apparent to all by now why there is no hope of certain editors ever compromising one iota from their position of endoring the myth hypothesis POV as uncontested, incontrovertible fact proven to everyones satisfaction, since nobody who disagrees counts. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:03, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, can you list 3 reasons why it would not qualify? Professor marginalia (talk) 16:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Also please address/acknowledge the fact that, under most dictionary definitions of the word "myth", a myth can be literary true and the truth with no reason to doubt its veracity. I repeat myself but me thinks you are unwilling or unable to disassociate the multiple meanings of the word 'myth'.--LexCorp (talk) 16:25, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The average citizen understands "myth" to mean "something that's not true". If you think otherwise, notice how often expressions like "that's just a myth" are used. Same thing as "that's just a fairy tale." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
So? This is an encyclopedia not the average citizen. In fact there is a project that address this very issue. It is called Simple English Wikipedia. My understanding was that this one was the English Wikipedia. Maybe we should start a Technically Precise English Wikipedia Not Safe For The Reader Audience Unwilling To Learn New Concepts Or Terminology.--LexCorp (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
furthermore I do support the use of a note and also a wikilink to the relevant article. I am all for educating average citizens. We can also incorporate a FAQ at the top of this talk page. I mean PC is an invalid argument to censor Wikipedia. There is plenty of technical solutions for something as trivial as this.--LexCorp (talk) 17:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Neutral Point of View, which is Wikpedia policy, rules out the use of "myth" here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
It absolutely does not. The encyclopedia has more than adequate resources to contextualize the usage of myth in the content of this entry. Bugs we are writing an encyclopedia and we're supposed to educate people about things like creation myths. When someone comes across the notion that this is a creation myth, as they surely will, they should be able to come here and get a better understanding of why that is. If we were unable to provide them with that very simple and basic educational service we'd have no business writing an encyclopedia.Griswaldo (talk) 22:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Point me to the specifics in the WP:NPOV that makes your point. My understanding of the policy is that content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. 'Myth' is a simple dictionary definition not a point of view. Furthermore I haven't seen yet a single reliable source stating that the myth definition does not apply to the Genesis creation myth.--LexCorp (talk) 00:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Then you haven't been paying very close attention, Lex, because we've got literally tons of reliable sources stating most explicitly that the myth definition does not apply to the Creation story or narrative. The only reason a few editors pretend not a one of these academics and theologians is "reliable", is because these scholars are disputing the point-of-view of these editors, one which they are seemingly afraid to present fairly to wikipedia readers. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Again you are misrepresenting the RS. I have only seen RS that state the myth definition as fairy tale does not apply. They either implicitly or explicitly indicate that the myth definition as a sacred narrative is correct (as exemplified by John S. Feinberg) or are mute on the issue. Your failure to understand that the word carries more than one meaning is the real problem.--LexCorp (talk) 00:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh, my bad... I mentioned "a ton of sources", and forgot to link this collection of them... There you will find all manner of significant perspectives, including more than several who explicitly say the "definition" itself is bogus. That's actually only a small sample of the available quotes, all saying this. The real problem is that you don't realize wikipedia's neutrality policy means it caters to ALL significant points of view - not just the intolerant one of a elitist snob scholars who have written otherwise. And I'm here to stay as long as it takes to help you see this. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Now I understand your position. You DO indeed want to redefine the meaning of the word "Myth". No wonder we have been going around in circles. You do think that there is a significant view among experts that agree with a redefinition of myth that excludes a common dictionary meaning for "myth" as in Merriam-Webster's: 1a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon. No only that but you think that such redefinition should be the basis for defining presumably all subjects pertaining to "myth" and certainly this one under the auspices of the WP:NPOV and presumably WP:Weight. Well that is not how Wikipedia works. We define subjects on the majority expert view and unless you argue otherwise the majority expert view is that the Genesis creation myth is a myth using the most common meaning (in the academic sense) of the word "myth". After that WP:NPOV and WP:weight requires us to present all significant point of view such as the one you are defending. In summary, unless the view that you defend is the majority view among the expert reliable sources it cannot be used to define the subject. There is really no other valid counter-argument to your pretensions because any other argument will be comparing apples to oranges given that we are arguing about different definitions of myth. My mistake was to think you unable to disassociate the different meaning of "myth" and trying to convince you that there is a legit use of myth that is not pejorative but now I can see that your argument is that a "significant" view among the RS is that one of the meaning of "myth" is not valid when it refers to the Genesis (The ultimate special pleading if I may say so). The structure of the lead should be a concise definition followed by all significant views and then a summary of the article. What you are suggesting is either 2 separate definitions (again presumably under the auspices of WP:NPOV). One for the majority expert view and the other for your "significant" expert view and then continue from there or simply define the subject according to the "significant" expert view alone. This is not how articles are build in Wikipedia. There isn't much to discuss beyond this.--LexCorp (talk) 04:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
How's this for a deal. The myth POV is allowed and not censored, and the not myth POV is allowed and not censored. Any takers?
Neutrality is giving everyone with a POV a shot at putting their feet in their mouths, and letting the reader laugh at whoever the reader wants to laugh at. ;) Alastair Haines (talk) 21:16, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
But don't you see, Alastair, that's precisely what they're terrified of... Letting the reader decide anything... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I have not problem with Alastair Haines suggestion. In fact I already offered such a solution above. I reproduce it fully again for those interested. "I have no problem in summarizing the whole section 4 of the article into the lead. In fact the lead is meant to do so. But pointing out the Cristian theology interpretation in the sentence that defines the subject is against WP:Weight and WP:Lead. Again that Genesis creation myth is a myth (in the sense of sacred narrative) is not a POV but a simple definition. If Til can admit that then I see no problem because hopefully the summary of section 4 will point out the Cristian theologians position as well as all others for that matter."--LexCorp (talk) 00:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm still wondering what the list of reasons are to say this is not a creation myth. This isn't about "what most people think myth means" - it's about "what most authorities who understand myth mean". Encyclopedia's aren't catalogs or affirmations of what the average person thinks. It's a place for people to look up stuff they don't know. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree with LexCorp, building off of Alastair, regarding how this could be presented in the lead. That is pretty much what I meant in the above quote. Also, I think Prof. M is asking a poignant question which I think needs to be addressed by those who oppose the unattributed use of "creation myth" in the entry.Griswaldo (talk) 12:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I think this version is quite nice - short, and to the point. There is no question that Genesis nicely fits in with other near-eastern creation myths, and borrows quite heavily from them. Whether it's inspired truth or plagiarized fantasy (or anything in between) has no influence on its genre. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Hm, apart from the (now expired) dispute tag, I don't see a significant difference with the current version. DVdm (talk) 12:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The main difference is the missing synopsis ("...is the biblical story of the beginning of the earth, life, and humanity") in the current version. We cannot assume that everybody knows what Genesis is (even for fluent English speakers, the name is specialized vocabulary - many Germans will only recognize it under the name "The first book of Moses"), and "creation" can be more or less exclusive (universe vs. just one people). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The version works for me. Hans Adler 13:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Stephan, if you look at the diff, you find the phrase "beginning of the earth, life, and humanity" twice on the left, and once on the right, so it's still there. I really don't care where it sits, or even whether it sits, as long as it doesn't sit twice :-) DVdm (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone tried to format and fill the article correctly, then come back and summarize the article into a lead? That's actually what we should be doing. The lead should be roughed in and then tweeked to represent the article, not the other way around. As someone (I believe the Professor) noted, the current article doesn't even get to the actual Genesis Creation myth until the third or fourth paragraph (discussing grammatical construct instead. Really? Grammar?). All due respect but we've got the title dealt with, now we need to construct the article in a much more straight-forward, clear, and concise manner. Then we can come back and summarize the content into a lead paragraph. Arguments about Intelligent Design can be left for other articles. It should go without saying this is a theological article and cannot stand up to scientific scrutiny. That does not diminish it's import in the least. I have been labeled a "creationist" (here) and an atheist (not here) neither of which is the point, this subject needs to be presented from a point of view that will annoy everybody. That's the first thing we all have to acknowledge, there are people on here that will never agree about this subject. But that's a good thing, we get all angles. The key is to present those angles, not just sit here on the talk page arguing with each other. So, that said, does anyone have a better first paragraph than the grammatical exercise we currently have? Padillah (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

A word or two from a source

  • "It is not the case either pre-Christian Judaism or earliest Hellenistic Christianity simply appropriated current myths about the gods. Pre-Christian Judaism was evidently well enough aware of how their wisdom language was used elsewhere; but they appropriated it not as myth, rather as vigorous imagery and metaphor to describe Yahweh's immanence, Yahweh's revelation in and through the Torah. And it was this imagery and metaphor domesticated to the servie of Jewish monotheism which early Hellenistic Christianity took over as a way of confessing that in Christ they had encountered God, the same divine power that had created and now sustained the cosmos, the same redemptive concern that had chosen Israel and shaped her history, the same revelatory utterance that had spoken through prophet and Torah. The language lent itself to mythical elaboration within the context of the more syncretistic religious speculation of the wider world, that is true; moreover, as we have already seen, the Christian identification of Christ as the Wisdom of God probably provided that wider speculation with a crucial stimulus and component towards the full blown mythology of Gnosticism. But at the initial stage of Wisdom christology it would be misleading to describe this as myth. Indeed it would be unjust to the sophistication of these pre-Christian Jewish and early Christian writers: in their own way they were as concerned with the over-simplifications of mythological thinking as any modern theologian, quite as alive to the dangers of a promiscuous imagery begetting a threat to their monotheism. We do too little justice then to the composers of these early Christian hymns and poems when we label their efforts 'myth'."
— James D G Dunn, Christology in the making, (SCM Press, 1980).
There are a lot of words there in Dunn's summary of a great deal of historical and literary analysis, and it is not directly about Genesis. My summary of his summary is that Wisdom in Jewish thought is not mythological language but literary language to describe a belief in a God who is actively involved in the everyday world. Dunn was arguing against a view published only a few years before him regarding the myth of Jesus' divinity. He's not interested in affirming Jesus divinity, however, he's interested in establishing where the idea came from, even if it's false. As a mere aside, he gives us this glimpse of how myth is used in a different but related context.
Myth in a technical literary sense is a much more sophisticated thing to correctly apply to something than myth in its ordinary sense. Let's all agree Genesis 1 is literally a fiction and so a myth in the ordinary sense, unless we have literary scholars to back us, we still can't call it a literary myth.
I believe Genesis 2 is truly mythological (as a student of literature), I believe it is a "true" myth (as a Christian). I also believe Genesis 1 is symbolic but true symbolically, however, I don't know whether it is right to call it a myth in the literary sense. It's not really a religious question, it's a jolly tricky literary question.
Please folks, stay gentle with one another on this one. We are using a technical literary word, we need literary sources.
Does anyone think the words of Genesis 1 were not selected rather carefully? Nonsense they may be, but rather organised and serious nonsense.
Remember the well known logical fallacy of the "duck test": if it looks like a myth, walks like a myth, and quacks like a myth, but it ain't got no wings, well then, you might be close, but you've still not actually got a myth.
I don't think scholars are going to speak unanimously on something as specific as a myth, nor something so very restrained as Genesis 1. Sociological context is also relevant and tricky here.
Hope that helps some people out there. Feel free to ignore me. Cheers Alastair Haines (talk) 21:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

I do think that this should be removed at this point. Otherwise, it is likely to remain for the forseeable future, as this is a debate that will quite likely never be settled. Some have made the case here that "the debate has been settled", and that "the discussion should be over". I have cautioned against this, as I feel those that disagree with us must be permitted to voice their opinions and objections. But I truly think that the POV tag is long overdue to be removed.Mk5384 (talk) 08:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it should stay as the article shows a definite tendency toward 'truth' (which is surely a minority view even in religious circles) and away from 'allegory' (surely the vast majority of informed opinion). Abtract (talk) 10:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I think the neutrality of the article is not a major issue, therefore I think the POV tag should be removed. I don't see where there is an emphasis on "truth," or the veracity of the tale. Nor do I see an emphasis on it as an "allegory." Bus stop (talk) 11:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
This is priceless. So we have an article that in its current state is not neutral to one editor because it overemphasizes the "myth" (aka majority in scholarship) perspective and to another because it de-emphasizes this very perspective. Abtract can you please outline some of the passages that you think are contributing to a "tendency toward truth". This way we can actually look at the content and move forward. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I was looking at "Questions of genre" at the time and, by the way, what on earth does the quote in the following para mean? There is very little mention of science in all this and I get the impression reading the article as a whole that science is of very little account to the editors mainly responsible for writing it recently ... note the change of name. Oh and that's why I added the see alsos that you removed ... they are scientific explantions of creation and a dab page, all very suitable imho. Abtract (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Abtract I left the disambiguation page. This entry has nothing to do with science. This entry is about a narrative, and the genre this narrative fits into is not scientific theory or scientific modeling. Do you think that every entry about a creation myth ought to have a see also link to evolution and big bang? The Creationism article is that-away. We are working on an entry about an ancient narrative. Once again, if you have specific examples of problems bring them here and make an argument regarding the problem and even better a proposal of how to solve it. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 16:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
What is the problem with having links to science on a page about creation? Seems to me to be an essential; indeed I would have thought a bit more scientific repost in the article itself would be no bad thing. Abtract (talk) 21:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
For the last time ... this is not "a page about creation". It is about a narrtive, a story, a myth ... and yes this myth deals with creation like all other creation myths do. Please tell me whether or not you feel that every article on a creation myth should have links to scientific models of creation. BTW, evolution isn't even about creation so how do you explain that? It only becomes important in regards to creation when it comes into conflict with ... once more what this page is not about ... creationism.Griswaldo (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be quite a lot about creation ... and the making of humanity ... both topics well covered in a scientific way by Big Bang and Evolution. Readers interested in this allegorical account may well be interested in the science. Yes good idea, let's include them in all creation type articles. Abtract (talk) 21:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Good luck with that. I'm completely opposed to the idea and I'm sure most others are as well. The disambiguation page is appropriate and I applaud you for its addition, but we aren't about to link every other view of creation on every page that deals with the general notion of "creation" in some way. Even just logistically that is a nightmare, but conceptually it is also misguided. See for instance this from the Oxford Companion to the Bible:
  • "Since the extended descriptions of creation in the first chapters of Genesis similarly reflect this background (See Myth), they are not to be viewed as providing a scientific account of the origin of the universe. They are religious statements, designed to show God's glory and greatness, the result of theological reflection by which the older mythology was radically transformed to express Israel's distinctive faith."
The only people really interested in comparing this narrative to scientific models or theories of creation are 1) creationists and their adversaries 2) atheists who like to pick on creationists. And that explains the other reason why this would be a horrible idea. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Griswaldo here. Scientific theories are at best tangential to the subject and will no doubt be mentioned as critical opposition to the literalistic interpretations in the main body of the text. For example, evolution is already wikilinked in the main text. While my opinion is that the creationism parts should be substantially reduced in size as per WP:weight, no doubt there will always be space to introduce the main scientific counter arguments.--LexCorp (talk) 21:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The lede. Again.

Griswaldo reverted this edit ([8]):

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Bible, describes the beginning of the earth and life, and the creation of humanity in the image of God. It is one of several Ancient Near East creation myths, differing from the others in its monotheistic outlook.[5][6] Its subject is the beginning of the earth and life, and the creation of humanity in the image of God.

And replaced it with this:

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Jewish and Christian Bible, is one of several Ancient Near East creation myths, differing from the others in its monotheistic outlook.[7][8] Its subject is the beginning of the earth and life, and the creation of humanity in the image of God.

I disagree with this reversion, because it's clear that you describe a thing first, and characterise it second. Also, the phrase "Jewish and Christian Bible" is just silly. Note that I'm leaving "creation myth" there without qualification. Please don't take this as agreement. It is only acquiescence. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

My mistake: I see that I left the description in at the end as well. The correct version should be this:

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Bible, describes the beginning of the earth and life, and the creation of humanity in the image of God. It is one of several Ancient Near East creation myths, differing from the others in its monotheistic outlook.[9][10]

I'm a bit uneasy about the "image of God" remark. Given that "Elohim" actually is plural, this is a later religious interpretation. I'd like that not in the lede, but somewhere where we can add sufficient context. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I.m.o. the entire phrase "in the image of God" is meaningless, and should removed. What is a "beginning of such and such in the image of someone or something"? Ok, never mind, I got it, I thought the standard expression was "after the image of...". And it was only "humanity in the image of ...", not " {earth and life, and the creation of humanity} in the image of ...". DVdm (talk) 16:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Lisa you are doing it backwards. First you define the subject and then you describe it. Thus:

The Genesis creation narrative, found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Bible, is one of several Ancient Near East creation myths, differing from the others in its monotheistic outlook.[11][12] It describes the beginning of the earth and life, and the creation of humanity in the image of God.

same way we do not say "a hammer consist of a handle and a head. It is a tool." we say "a hammer is a tool featuring a handle and a head."--LexCorp (talk) 16:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. Saying that a hammer is a tool is POV. A hammer can be used as a tool, but it is a symbol of Thor. I can bring reliable sources to show that this is a valid position. I suggest the following: "A hammer is an object with a handle and a head. It can be used as a tool." Hans Adler 17:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Nobody disputes it is a POV. Everything is a point of view. "A hammer is an object" is also a POV. Wikipedia uses the majority expert view to define the subjects. Without this simple premise it will be impossible to create an encyclopedia. Some POVs are descriptions, others are definitions. By the way it is not clear that Mjöllnir is a hammer. There are also other POV on this issue. And yet we start its article with "Mjöllnir is the hammer of Thor" (not an axe or club nor the more general word "weapon"). We go with the majority expert view.--LexCorp (talk) 18:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
"A hammer is a tool", "A saw is a tool", "A wrench or spanner is a tool." Moby Dick is a novel", "Romeo and Juliet" is a tragedy", "The Tyger is a poem", "Doonesbury is a comic strip". "The Mona Lisa is a 16th century portrait", "The Washington Monument is an obelisk", "A river is a natural watercourse", "A spoon is a utensil". "The Enûma Eliš is the Babylonian creation myth". Are all these POV too? Professor marginalia (talk) 18:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Just to qualify my statement that everything is a POV: True everything is a POV but when dealing with a simple definition or dictionary definition they by necessity represent the broadest consensus among every speaking person as well as the experts. Otherwise simple communication among experts or otherwise will be impossible. At that very point we are questioning the existence of a common language among a large body of people, thus we may as well create, each one of us, our own little fantasy version of Wikipedia (not dissimilar to what Conservapedia does). For this very reason it is absurd to challenge them over any other RS view because it is easy to demonstrate that they represent the widest consensus among everyone including experts. That is why Til's aspirations are so astounding to me. He really does think his "no a myth" position is at par in the sense of significant with the dictionary definition. The concept is so absurd that it does not merit further discussion other than pointing out that such view is not even close to the one held by the majority of experts. And yet I can think of examples where the dictionary definition could be challenged somewhat tentatively and that is with the problem of neologisms. Neologisms by their very nature are not very well defined and this state of affairs could last for decades. As such they sometimes creep into dictionaries even when their use is not so well established especially among the experts. Having said that the word "myth" is as far removed from a neologism as a word can be.--LexCorp (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I would even go so far as to flip the order of the location and description - "The Genesis creation narrative is one of several Ancient Near East creation myths. It is found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Bible..." Padillah (talk)
Read WP:Bold. I will say no more. :) --LexCorp (talk) 09:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"It describes the beginning of the earth and life" Actually it describes no such issues. It describes what Jews believe about the beginning of the earth and life. Can that be changed? Because it is so obviously wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.144.96.70 (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Well we already define it as a creation myth that originates in the bible so it is more or less implied that this is in the context of the Judeo-Cristian mythology or belief system.--LexCorp (talk) 21:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but it should be emphasized that what the belief system says is not real. The sentence reads as if the belief system accuartely describes something that is actally so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.144.96.70 (talk) 08:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes it should be emphasized that what the belief system says is not real (more like contrary to scientific evidence) but not in the lead (unless the literalistic interpretations are also summarized at which point a simple remark that such views are contrary to scientific proven facts will suffice) nor in the sentence describing the subject. There is plenty of space for a criticism section in the main body. This sentence is an expression/statement of belief not an assertion of fact so it does not need to be automatically challenged by the scientific view on facts.--LexCorp (talk) 09:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure that the context is so obvious. The sentence does indeed imply that creation is real and that Genesis only describes it. · CUSH · 15:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Cush, what you describe is a problem of contexts external to the source but internal to various readers like yourself. You, as a reader, will apparently always understand statements like this to mean what you are claiming it means, and I truly believe you are being sincere. Be that as it may the culture wars context that influences your understanding of sentences like this is not a majority one. There will always be subcultural contexts out there influencing readers in ways we cannot guard against, and it is pointless to try. Our language is flexible, and meanings are not fixed. I think we can all agree on that. The only thing we can do is hope that we're in tune with how most people understand what we write. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 15:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I guess I should clarify that my comment about Thor's hammer above was a blatant breach of WP:SARCASM. I am glad that nobody agreed with me. Hans Adler 10:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Hans, fwiw, I found this one of the finest comments ever made on the subject. DVdm (talk) 10:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps, but the most succinct comment regarding this fiasco made so far came from Prof. M on this page: This isn't an encyclopedia article-it's more like a video game. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 12:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

A better intro paragraph

Any objections to using the paragraphs from Creation_myths#Judaism_and_Christianity as an "Overvioew" section in the begining of the article body? This will help introduce the subject 'before the intricate dissection rather than after the reader has slogged through several paragraphs. I'll repost here for clarity:

Overview

In the Judeo-Christian traditions, there are two creation stories which appear in the opening passages of The Book of Genesis. In the first account [13], God progressively creates the different features of the world over a series of seven days. Creation is by divine command: God says "Let there be light!" and light is created. On the second and third days, God separates the waters, sky and dry land, and fills the earth with vegetation. God then puts lights in the sky to separate day from night to mark the seasons. On the fifth day, God creates sea creatures and birds of every kind and commands them to multiply their numbers. On the sixth day, God's creates land creatures of every kind. Man and woman are created last, after the entire world is prepared for them; they are created in the "image" of God, and given dominion and care over all other created things. God rested on the seventh and final day of creation, which he marked as holy.

In the second story [14] the creation of man follows the creation of the heavens and earth, but occurs before the creation of other plants and animals. He is formed from the dust of the ground, and God breathes life into him. God prepares a garden in Eden for man and fills it with trees bearing fruit for him to eat. The man is invited to eat the fruit of any tree but one: the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God commands not to eat of that one tree "for when you eat of it you will surely die."[15] Birds and animals are then created as man's companions and helpers, and God presents them to the man. The first man gives names to each one, but finds none suitable to be his helper, so God puts him to sleep and removes one of his ribs, which he uses to make the first woman. For this reason, the text reads, the man will leave his father and mother for his wife, and they shall be joined as one flesh.

Padillah (talk) 17:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I see no problem at all. Much better that the detail text analysis of the narrative section. Is it within policy to link to a particular version of the Bible? I ask because this may cause problem given the multiple versions used by different denominations. It looks like we are endorsing one over the others.--LexCorp (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I see those more as citations for the quotes than anything else. If others have citations from other works (Talmud?) I'd be fine with including them too. Padillah (talk) 18:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
As citation I understand that they are perfectly valid but they are featured as external links on the main body text. This could be problematic as it looks like we are endorsing one particular version of the bible over the rest.--LexCorp (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't realize {{Bibleref2}} did that. Thanks for pointing that out. How about the corrections I've made above? And you have a point that a Torah/Talmud reference would be a good idea too. Padillah (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
yep this is the correct way IMHO.--LexCorp (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
There is some guidance as to how to cite the Bible in a non bias way. See link.--LexCorp (talk) 22:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Renewed Discussion

What kinds of sources are needed in this kind of summary? Lisa reverted it saying that it needed sources, maybe she can explain what it needs. Would another reference work suffice? Do we really need sources for a basic summary like this outside of the text itself? Of course we should also ask the basic question of whether or not we want this text added. I think some kind of basic plot summary would be good.Griswaldo (talk) 01:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

This overview is purely factual, concise, well-written, and most certainly properly sourced. This is arguably the most relevant section of the entire article. It is perfect and it really should stay. DVdm (talk) 09:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
More to the point, I asked (above) for other citations and no one felt compelled to answer. Besides, being the "Genesis creation narrative" I thought Genesis itself would make a good citation. Padillah (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Monotheism?

Why was it claimed with reference to one source that was an Evangelical theologian and another source that didn't explicitly state it that the Genesis creation myth is different from other accounts because it is monotheistic? There are clearly cases of nouns being used in the account which indicate in part a plural state. Many current apologists say this is God talking to angels, but it is likely a transference from other polytheistic accounts. In any case, the monotheism of Judaism is really established in primacy and type through later stories including Noah, Abraham, and the founding of the nation of Israel with its formal declaration happening through the law in Exodus through Moses. Most agree that the creation account as reinvigorated in the time of Amos was likely used to serve as a basis for the Sabbath rest and the Adamic story was meant to establish a direct connection between the deity and humanity so a later special relationship between God and his people could be justified. This is only very obliquely related to monotheism. I changed the lead and boilerplate description so that it was more neutral and removed the POV-pushing sources which were either unreliable or being misused.

ScienceApologist (talk) 17:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Science Apologist you are mistaken regarding the conventional way to view this narrative. For instance see the following example from a very mainstream, secular reference work:
'The Oxford Companion to World Mythology
  • "To the extent that this myth was influenced by Mesopotamian concepts, it can be said that it purposely establishes a monotheistic creation as opposed to the Babylonian polytheistic one. The God of Genesis 1, unlike the dominant Babylonian figure Marduk, can never be in danger of being overthrown. This is a God beyond reach, who cannot be fully known. He resembles the Mesopotamian creators only in that he overcomes the pre-creation chaos (in Hebrew Tehom, in Babylonian the female monster Tiamat). There is, of course, a strong and direct Mesopotamian influence on the flood story that comes later in Genesis, as will be clear to any reader of the epic of Gilgamesh."
When one discusses the creation myth in Genesis one discusses the finished version, which is monothestic. My understanding is that evidence of polytheism in the text speaks to the possibility of henotheism or polytheism amongst the relevant ancient peoples prior to the finalization of the text. But that's "prior to". Someone else wanna chime in here? Maybe the Oxford Companion should be added as a reference so this does not come up again.Griswaldo (talk) 21:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
But you're forgetting that there are TWO narratives. The first narrative indeed is strictly monotheistic having come from a reorganization at the time of the return from exile and a re-establishment of the primacy of the religious faith/leadership. The second narrative, however, still maintains the plural construction. The Oxford Mythology doesn't refer to the second creation mythology here (and its famous line, "Let US creation Man in OUR image"). I agree that there is an intentional separation from other Mesopotamian myths of the time (though, it would be better to compare it to Zoroastrian conceptions for obvious reasons) but there is no indication that monotheism as a concept is the main discriminant and the sources clearly do not indicate that. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
NO Oxford does deal with both narratives, and it does so by referring to "God" the singular.
  • "Genesis 2:4b–4 contains a myth that is much earlier than the one described above. This was a myth created or reworked from earlier oral traditions by the so-called J (for Jahweh, that is, Yahweh) writer from the perspective of the strong tenth-century B.C.E. Israelite nation of the Jerusalem monarchy. The God here is much more personal and much more jealous than the Elohim of the later Genesis 1 story. The J writer(s) is more of a poet, more of a mythologizer than the P writers. Here the dominant story is that of the primal parents, Adam and Eve, but the creation of humans differs from that of Genesis 1. Here God forms a man out of dust, just as in the Enuma elish humans are created from clay. God breathes life into the man and puts him in the Garden of Eden, a place made possible by God's providing water to barren land. The emphasis on moisture and the locating of Eden at the point where a river branches into four streams points to a Canaanite tradition, the rivers in Canaan being for Canaanites the umbilical cords of life."
What you're talking about, once again, is the fact that the second narrative most probably has an original source that was polytheistic or at least henotheistic. The conventional view however is not to treat the finished text as polytheistic but to recognize its polytheistic beginnings, or the polytheism in the proto-text.Griswaldo (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I've added the "monotheistic outlook" construction provided by the Oxford text. I can see your point, but we need to be clear that it is a deliberate construction. The previous wording read like it was a distinguishing feature. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You also added other thoughts about who "accepted" this myth and you wiped other citations ... so I have reverted your edit prior to you discussing it here. Just a hint wp:brd. Abtract (talk) 21:57, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Um, it seems a little strange that you are claiming that I "wiped" other citations when I explained clearly above the problem with those sources. So the "prior to discussing it" charge falls flat on its face. It's a fair point about the "accepted" part of the myth. A section is started below. Just a hint: WP:CIVIL (There's another essay I think is a more appropriate response than that, but linking to it is generally considered to be not civil here on Wikipedia these days). ScienceApologist (talk) 05:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I believe some claim at "hints" of polytheism with the royal "we/our" usage in Genesis 1 but the creation itself was by one diety, Elohim, whereas the in the Babylonian creation multiple deities played a role. Monotheism is a doctrine--the story of a creation by a single creator isn't the same as monotheism. But we need a reference for this and every claim in this article-(edit warring is a real problem here). The fixes in this article need to start with a good two or three solid, middle-of-the-road, sources to serve as a model and use them to frame how this article should be written. Most now are coming first from personal opinion-everybody thinks they know what this should say, and it's getting in the way. All this pushing and pulling-it's left the article with a kind of dissociative identity disorder. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Your argument is actually a bit problematic – not primarily because some people might be offended by the suggestion that their god(s) might be connected to diets, but because Elohim is actually morphologically a plural.Hans Adler 23:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
What? I'm not "making an argument". I'm saying all of us need to quit furnishing arguments, and let the sources guide the editors in what the article needs to say. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
You wrote "one diety, Elohim", and that's highly problematic because it's entirely reasonable to translate this as "one deity, Gods". There is probably a reason for the plural, and I guess it's at least not entirely clear that the reason is not that the Jewish God is the result of a fusion of various deities. Sorry if I mistook this for a point you wanted to make, but I felt it can't stay uncorrected. Hans Adler 00:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Hans our entry on elohim also points out that in the Torah the word functions as a singular noun when used to refer to the "single God of Israel". Linguistics and Hebrew are far from my cup of tea but it seems to me that once again we have the possible remnants of polytheism. However, to Prof. M's point we really just need to follow reliable sources on this, and if I'm not mistaken those sources do take up this singular meaning for Elohim (like the various Oxford reference sources I keep bringing up here).Griswaldo (talk) 00:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Oxford's A Dictionary of the Bible - "The word is plural in form, literally denoting ‘gods’ (as in Exod. 20: 3), but normally used for the God of Israel as a plural of majesty, as in other languages."
  • The Oxford Guide to People and Places of the Bible - "The usual Hebrew word for God is Elohim (lhîm), another plural of majesty with a singular meaning when used of Yahweh."
Those are just two examples I have readily available.Griswaldo (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
@Hans Adler: We do this. We pull out sources like the Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Britannica, and other mainstream references written for a mainstream audience. And we start out drafting this article focusing on the claims made there. Then later in the article, the more notable of the various esoteric, nuanced interpretations can be discussed-attributing the claims to sources that make them. We don't furnish our own translations and interpretations. We defer to the most notable authorities on the subject who explore these issues and we report what they say about it. If they say there are remnants of polytheism there, we say that's what they say--whether we agree with them personally or not. If they don't say it, we don't say it. Key is, source first, add the claims in the article second. That's the way to craft the content here. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed sentence for the lead

I'd like to include the following sentence in the lead:


Objections?

ScienceApologist (talk) 05:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Since it is clearly not accepted by most (even religious) people, I do object. Starting, "It is accepted as an allegorical acount ... " would be better. And don't forget that religions do not accept anything, only people do. Abtract (talk) 05:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
So you object to the word "accepted" because somemost people don't believe in it literally? But surely, that goes to a deeper question of whether or not the word "accept" implies "empirical acceptance". Are you contending that the reader will be misled if we simply write that these religions accept this account? Because, as far as I can see, every Christian and Jewish religious group that comments on the subject affirms that the account as the one most relevant to their mythological traditions surrounding creation. So, how is it exactly "not accepted" by religious people? Do you have any cite on this? Because, I could cite the official positions of the religious organizations who have commented on Genesis from those faiths and show you to be flatly without basis. Unless they are not really religious, I suppose. WP:ASTONISH certainly applies for your last point about religions not being able to "accept" anything. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
"Accepted as the account of creation" has fairly strong implications of literal acceptance, especially as you immediatelty contrast it with "accepted at least in the abstract" (i.e. the acceptance of by Judaism and Christianity is not "in the abstract"). You'd have to find a neat way of phrasing it that makes it clear that the vastly overwhelming majority of theologians and followers of those religions accept it only as an allegory, whilst a small rump of nutbars think it's the literal truth.Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 10:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Literalist interpretation vs. allegorical (or mythical, etc.) is a slightly more complicated issue. The truth is that most religious people in the West accept both scientific theories of creation and religious stories about creation (perhaps as allegory, or myth, etc.). For these people there is no contradiction because these accounts of creation are compartmentalized. Because you use the definite article you imply that the Genesis account is the only account of creation accepted by the named religions, and de facto by the people who identify with them. Abtract's other quibble is something I agree with as well. Your current phrasing also implies that religions are beings with agency who can accept or dismiss something. Only people can do that.Griswaldo (talk) 12:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Unintended interpretations are not what I'm going for, but certainly you can understand at least what my sentence is trying to illustrate. I'm all for rewording as I do not want the reader to think that every member of these religions literally accepts the account in Genesis. How about:


ScienceApologist (talk) 13:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Intention has nothing to do with how meaning is actually conveyed in practice. But I see that you are willing to understand that others did not get your intent initially and have come up with another suggestion.Griswaldo (talk) 14:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Can you help with wording? I think the idea deserves mentioning. If not for those faiths, this article might not exist, for example. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Abtract has a good point below regarding your new suggestion because how do we determine that it is "of importance" to certain religious groups, and especially when we are putting two groups side by side that may have very different generalized attitudes towards these passages. Here I might actually suggest something that Til keeps harping on, and that is canonicity. It would suffice to point out that this is part of the religious canons of these two traditions.Griswaldo (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
So maybe something like this - It is considered part of the biblical canons of Judaism and Christianity.
I would hesitate to mention Islam and Ba'hai unless the relationship between those traditions and this scripture is fleshed out in the main entry.Griswaldo (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
That seems amenable to me. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the first two sentences are great just the way they are. They need no change. SAE (talk) 14:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

That's nice. However, this section is about adding a new sentence. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:23, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

From my experience, Genesis is of very little importance to most Jews and the whole of the Old Testament is of very little importance to most Christians. Abtract (talk) 14:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Why should we write something based on your experience? Is this a way for you to ask for a source or multiple sources? Because that can be done. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm seriously against this proposal, because the percentage of Christians and Jews who literally believe in Genesis is very small, and belief in Genesis as an allegorical or symbolic account is implied by the fact that it is a creation myth. Claritas (talk) 15:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't we say whose creation myth it is? ScienceApologist (talk) 17:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Which "whose" do you mean? Creation myth of whose authorship or creation myth of whose adoption? · CUSH · 19:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Adoption. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The percentage of Christians who literally believe in Genesis is in fact relatively large. In fact, one poll suggests that nearly two out of every three American evangelicals express the view that the Bible is literally true, and another poll suggests that more than half of those who attend church weekly believe this. It is far from a fringe view, except among secular academia. HokieRNB 07:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Who cares what American evangelicals say? How many American evangelicals are there? 50 million? That is hardly representative in a planetary population of over 6 billion. This is a global encyclopedia, and we report global overviews. American evangelicalism is fringe. · CUSH · 00:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
And the user pronounces yet another viewpoint he doesn't care for as "heretical"...! Reminds me of The Fisherman and His Wife who wanted to be Pope...! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
50 million represent a fringe view? How is that possible? By some counts it's actually nearly double that. And that's just in the U.S. Adherents.com reports more than 300 million (compared to less than 250 million atheists) worldwide. There are more than 6,000 evangelical churches totaling more than 6 million members in Nigeria alone. The largest evangelical church in the world is probably in Korea. By that reckoning, Cush is pushing a fringe view by insisting on a non-supernatural bias. Maher-shalal-hashbaz (talk) 01:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
American-centric views are irrelevant to WP articles. And you must not confuse membership in a religious group with actual belief. BTW Adherents.com assigns a number 1.1 billion to non-believers. Oh, and non-supernatural bias is the only bias based on evidence and rational thinking. This article exists to render objective information about the creation myth contained in Genesis, and it is no different than any other ANE creation myth (and it has especially no greater credibility than any other, they are all equally at zero credibility). The fact that all the religious editors are unable or unwilling to render an objective assessment does not mean I have to bow before religion and its intellectual dishonesty. · CUSH · 09:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I've got a problem using this article to establish what "most" Christians (or "most" anyone) believes. This article isn't about the people that believe this account it's about the account itself. The stories on Sherlock Holmes don't spend several paragraphs discussing whether people believed he was real (and some did), they simply state who the character is and what the stories were. That's what this article should be. A simple and stark statement of the presentation and study of the story regardless of any one persons belief. As Professor M says above - what do the sources say? Padillah (talk) 12:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Padillah, ScienceApologist has agreed the something like this is amenable:
  • It is considered part of the biblical canons of Judaism and Christianity. (Griswaldo)
Something similar actually appears in a source I quoted for other reasons on this page (Oxford Companion to World Mythology:
  • "Although it is canonical for both Christians and Jews, and in part for followers of Islam, different emphases are placed on the story by the three religions." (Oxford Companion)
What do you think about that?Griswaldo (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I like that much better. "Cannon" is a falsifiable state of being... It doesn't depend on the population of the religion... The religions no longer "believe" but rather "emphasize" which is physically possible... I like this a lot better. The only issue I might have is grammatical - wouldn't it be "Although it is canon in both..." but I'm no English major so I'm just asking. Padillah (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I just clarified this. I am no grammarian but just to be clear that's the quote from the source.Griswaldo (talk) 13:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough. Let's get it in. Padillah (talk) 13:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Done.Griswaldo (talk) 14:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Bravo, I agree with Padillah and Griswaldo that this change reflects a very reasonable consensus. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Well done, all. Thanks for working together. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Canonicity or ...?

The introduction to this article should absolutely identify the religious traditions that consider it meaningful, in whatever capacity that might be. Lisa has reverted the line about this being part of biblical canon with the edit summary: The Bible *is* the canon of Judaism and Christianity. So this added nothing. I don't agree with this at all, and I don't think others who commented in this section agree. This was a good way to link the two traditions and to link them through something that shows that the narrative is important as well. Are there other suggestions? Lisa do you have other suggestions? I don't like this fly by reverting that people are doing with nothing more than a twitter of text in the edit summary instead of actually engaging in discussion here. We argue over nonsense ceaselessly here and then when it comes to actually discussing serious content questions people would rather just fly by edit. Ridiculous.Griswaldo (talk) 20:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The passage was good. It's undisputed, it's sourced, it's relevant, it's significant-it should stay. Jews and Christians both consider Genesis canon, but of course the Bible to Christian is not the Bible of Jews, and this article isn't written for know-it-all's and mindreaders-it's written for people to learn something they don't already know.
These poorly thought through, knee-jerk reverts accomplish nothing besides waste time better spent. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Tangential issue

I know this isn't the talk page to discuss other entries, but after linking Christianity and Judaism in the above added sentence I had a look at those entries. The Judaism entry has a very odd introduction, in that it fails to call Judaism a religion. I left a note on the talk page there and again I know that's a separate matter but it makes me feel like with the reliance on inter-encyclopedia linking of this kind it actually becomes a concern across the board to all related entries. Feel free to remove this if its not apropos.Griswaldo (talk) 14:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

That shouldn't be an issue for this article. Of course Judaism is recognised as a religion. If the religion of the adherents is not called "Judaism", what then is it called? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually the hatnote at the very top of Judaism spells it out pretty clear...! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
It shouldn't be in a hatnote.Griswaldo (talk) 14:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
  1. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindreance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nautre, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  2. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  3. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindreance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nautre, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  4. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  5. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindrance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nature, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  6. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  7. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindrance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nature, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  8. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  9. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindrance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nature, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  10. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  11. ^ "[Other Ancient Near Eastern creation myths] began, as a rule, with a theogony, that is, with the origin of the gods, the genealogy of the deities who preceded the birth of the world and mankind; and they told of the antagonims... Then came the Torah ... not many gods but One God; not theogony, for a god has no family tree; not wars nor strife nor the clash of wills, but only One Will, which rules over everything, without the slightest let or hindrance; not a deity associated with nature and identified with it wholly or in part, but a God who stands absolutely above nature, and outside of it, and nature and all its constituent elements, even the sun and all the other entities ... are only His creatures, made according to his will." See further, John S. Feinberg, "No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God," (2006) p. 569.
  12. ^ "The Babylonian genesis [in comparison to the Torah's] describes the creation not as a beginning but as an end, not as the gratuitous and inexplicable act of one god but as the result of a cosmic battle, the fundamental and eternal struggle between two aspects of nature: Good and Evil, Order and Chaos." Georges Roux, "Ancient Iraq: Third Edition (Penguin History)," 1993, p. 95
  13. ^ Genesis 1:1–2:3
  14. ^ Genesis 2:4–2:25
  15. ^ Genesis 2:17
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