Talk:Gameness

"The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views."

I am curious to know why any reference to "game" or "gameness" that does not involve dogfighting is removed; I will give some examples of other usage (below).

In addition, I would like to point out that the Teastac Misneac, and today's CG title, wasn't/isn't a "badger-baiting" sporting event presented for the entertainment, but rather was a hunting test to determine if the dog could/can do the work it was bred to do (kill rats and other dangerous vermin.) References to working terriers do not belong on a dogfighting page.

Definition: (Webster's Third New International Dictionary 1967 pg 933) Note: There is no reference to dogfighting in any of the definitions.

3game \"\ adj -er -est [1game] 1: having a resolute unyielding spirit ...

gameness n -es [3game] : endurance, pluck

"Gameness" is considered a desirable characteristic of dogs bred for vermin control.

Some examples of usage of "game" or "gameness" that specifically does NOT include dogfighting are quickly found online:

• From Brittanica Online:

"Lakeland terrier: breed of dog originally used to hunt and kill foxes in the Lake District of England. Formerly known as the Patterdale terrier, the Lakeland terrier was bred for gameness when in pursuit of foxes and otters..."

• Border Terrier (a 5kg/11lb dog! Certainly not a dogfighting dog.):

"General Appearance: Essentially a working terrier. Characteristics: Capable of following a horse, combining activity with gameness...is very sharp with rats and other vermin, and at the same time is a sensible, affectionate, and cleanly companion." http://www.midland-border-terrier-club.org.uk/standards.htm

• Carin terriers:

...bred them to rid their properties of the vermin that killed their livestock and to "go to ground" to hold or bolt otter, weasel, fox and other vermin from rock cairns and fences...possess a very high degree of gameness. http://www.croftersdream.com/

• Scottish Terrier:

"...the Scottie's primal function of going-to-ground in pursuit of prey...Gameness, without reference to size or circumstance, was and is the heart of the terrier." http://www.tartanscottie.com/scottie_breed_personality.htm

• (re gameness) "For terriers the term is "Raubzeugschärfe," which translates as small predator sharpness. Terriers are used to hunt and kill small predators such as martens, foxes, badgers, etc. It is no easy feat to kill these predators without suffering injury. So a particularly fast and furious shaking technique is very common, as is a chomping bite behavior. These types of sharpness categorize the dog's prey drive." 'Tell Me About Your Dog!' -part 5, by Armin Winkler http://siriusdog.com/articles/schutzhund-sport-dogs-winkler5.htm (Armin Winkler is a second-generation police dog trainer, NOT a dogfighter.)

• Glen of Imaal Terrier

"...is a docile and gentle character although it still possesses its sporting instincts. The breed were silent hunters of underground game, the badger and the fox...In order to accomplish full championship status they had to win the 'Teastac Misneac' – the certificate of dead gameness – to prove they were true working terriers as well as show champions." http://www.gardening-uk.com/dogs/breeds/texts/glen_of_imaal_terrier.html

• Mixed breed:

"The fox was sat back in its chamber and due to its position Stanners Wheaton/greyhound, Murphy, was utilised to draw this potential lamb killer in order for us to despatch it humanely...the real hero of the day was the little red terrier to which all the last three hours could be attributed. It was her that had gone into the darkness and found her quarry, staying with it for three hours in tight, sandy and, quite frankly, inhospitable conditions. It was down to her stubborn gameness that we had gotten a dig." A Day Out With The Deerness, by J.Darcy, http://www.eebit.co.uk/sports/a_day_out_with_the_deerness.php

• From wikipedia --

"A working terrier is a terrier that goes to ground in a natural earth against formidable quarry...requirements of a working terrier are an essential gameness...terrier work is considered an ideal way to control certain nuisance wildlife in farm country." http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Working_terrier

• opinion -- poster on a Staffordshire Terrier webboard:

"Gameness, Tenacity, or Courage, can in no way be linked to aggression, aggression is not a desirable trait in any breed although many breeds are used in guarding and they are encouraged to be aggressive."

• In humans:

"So I told him point-blank that if he wanted to hire a bodyguard he'd have to go somewhere else. He wasn't as put out at my reply as I would have expected. Hafwyn (talk) 16:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Baiting in this sense has nothing to do with working terriers

References to "baiting" with regard to working terriers are not factual.

From Bait (dogs) : "Baiting is the act of worrying or tormenting a chained or confined animal by setting game dogs upon it for sport. The dogs attack with endeavour, bite and tear, and subdue the opposing animal by incapacitating or killing it. Baiting is a blood sport used for entertainment and gambling."

From Earthdog trial: "...earthdog tests are intended as noncompetitive venues in which the handlers of Dachshunds and small terriers may gauge their dog’s natural hunting aptitude when presented with an underground hunting situation. The hunting encounter is controlled and neither dog nor quarry, a rat, are in any real danger."

These two things are in no way related.

Although the Teastas Mor has long been discarded, there is no evidence that it involved "baiting" and tearing of a chained animal for human entertainment; rather it required that "contests between dog and badger were fair." It was a requirement for championship because championships are awarded to superior breeding animals. It was a way to make sure the dog could do the work for which it was bred.

Hafwyn (talk) 16:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)