Talk:Gējì

Sources in Chinese

Are Chinese sources deemed useful and accepted for this article? I mean sources written in the Chinese language, which English languages speakers probably won't know how to read. -Sofia Koutsouveli (talk) 12:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

According to the Chinese Wikipedia "艺妓" refers to Japanese Geisha, not Chinese courtesans. Can someone check the source to make sure the correct characters are being used. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/艺妓

Also "歌女" seems to be more similar to what Yiji are meant to be. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/歌女 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uanime5 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

About the classification of entries on English Wikipedia

An error was found in the classification. I hope an administrator can help correct it. Thank you. Du Zhu is not a prostitute and should be removed from the classification of prostitutes in China. Sai jinhua should correspond to the classification of Chinese prostitutes. The Chinese Prostitution category has Eight Beauties of Qinhuai, which should be removed. Eight Beauties of Qinhuai is not about prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Unreadable

Unreadable, meandering, extremely long paragraphs, confusing, illogical organisation, too many details before the substance is clarified, poor English. All I got is that the Geji must have been prostitutes, since the article devotes so much text to vociferous and repetitive denying that they were. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 23:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Geji are not prostitutes. I have a lot of information to prove that they are not prostitutes, and not all gejis are prostitutes. I put the content in the discussion area. And this wiki is just describing artistic talent.So do you think Japanese geishas are prostitutes? Are all geishas prostitutes? 清风与明月 (talk) 15:36, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Zhu Ziqing's Essay

For the sake of being as transparent as possible, I am also posting here what I posted on User:清风与明月's talk page.

While it is true that he talks about Geji and he is a scholar, the essay which you used cannot be used to state in Wikivoice that Geji were not prostitutes in the lead section per WP:NPOV when there are an abundance of secondary academic sources that say Geji did engage in sexual services.

The essay you are using by Zhu Ziqing clearly states that these are his thoughts. The entire context of the essay preceding that passage is 道德律的力，本来是民众赋予的；在民众的面前，自然更显出它的威严了。我这时一面盼望，一面却感到了两重的禁制：一，在通俗的意义上，接近妓者总算一种不正当的行为；二，妓是一种不健全的职业，我们对于她们，应有哀矜勿喜之心，不应赏玩的去听她们的歌 在众目睽睽之下，这两种思想在我心里最为旺盛。她们暂时压倒了我的听歌的盼望，这便成就了我的灰色的拒绝。那时的心实在异常状态中，觉得颇是昏乱。歌舫去了，暂时宁靖之后，我的思绪又如潮涌了。两个相反的意思在我心头往复：卖歌和卖淫不同，听歌和狎妓不同，又干道德甚事？——但是，但是，她们既被逼的以歌为业，她们的歌必无艺术味的；况她们的身世，我们究竟该同情的。所以拒绝倒也是正办。但这些意思终于不曾撇开我的听歌的盼望。它力量异常坚强；它总想将别的思绪踏在脚下。从这重重的争斗里，我感到了浓厚的不足之感。这不足之感使我的心盘旋不安，起坐都不安宁了。唉！我承认我是一个自私的人！平伯呢，却与我不同。他引周启明先生的诗，“因为我有妻子，所以我爱一切的女人，因为我有子女，所以我爱一切的孩子。

Translated below:

The strength of the moral law had been given by the people; naturally its majesty was more apparent in their presence. While I was looking forward to it, I felt a twofold inhibition: Firstly, in the popular sense, to approach a prostitute is always an improper act; Secondly, as prostitution is an improper profession, one should not be pleased with them, nor should one listen to their songs in a playful manner. These two ideas flourished in my mind in the full view of the public. They overpowered for the time being my desire to listen to the songs, and this accomplished my gray refusal. At that moment, my heart was in an unusual state, and I was feeling quite confused. After the boat had gone away, and I had been temporarily pacified, again my thoughts were like a tidal wave. My mind went back and forth between two opposite meanings: selling songs is not the same as prostitution, listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes, and what does it matter about morality? --Yet, since they are forced to sing for a living, their songs must not be artistic; and we should sympathize with them because of their background. So to refuse is the right thing to do. Yet these meanings did not at last take away from my hope of hearing songs. Its strength was extraordinary; it was seeking to crush other thoughts underfoot. Out of this heavy struggle came to me a strong sense of inadequacy. This feeling of insufficiency made my heart whirl, and I was no longer at peace when I rose or sat down. Alas! I admit that I am a selfish man! But Ping Bo was different from me. He quoted Mr. Zhou Qiming's poem, “Because I have a wife, I love all women; because I have children, I love all children.” )

Him expressing his moral debate about approaching prostitutes and then rationalizing to himself that "selling songs is not the same as prostitution, listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes". It isn't sufficient enough as a source to be used to contend that Geji did not engage in prostitution. It is a long passage of self-examination. Per WP:RSCONTEXT Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. and WP:RSAGE newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt., Zhu Ziqing's essay really isn't suitable for the body of the article, let alone the lead, especially not when so many academically published sources contradict his essay.

Putting Zhu Ziqing's essay in the lead is WP:UNDUE. Brocade River Poems 03:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you think. We have already coordinated and edited together. If there is no better reference material for the added content, you can add the reference material, but don't delete the content directly. I added, "But many people are not prostitutes", and you deleted it directly. 清风与明月 (talk) 04:38, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I deleted it because you are adding information that is unsubstantiated by any source except for an essay of someone who is expressing a personal opinion. Per Wikipedia policy, the article can only represent information which is verifible in the sources. We cannot just write "but many are not prostitutes" when there are no reliable sources supporting the information. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents, emphasis added. A statement in wikivoice that is only supported by a single source that isn't even considered appropriate for use in this context is not something which belongs in the lead of the article. It is WP:UNDUE when the vast majority of academic sources on the subject say that Geji engaged in sexual services. Brocade River Poems 08:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Since there is too much content, I cannot reply to you directly, so I have put a lot of content in the discussion area, which is also convenient for reading. A large number of reference materials indicate that gejis provide sexual services. What I mean is, does having sexual relations mean prostitution? I admit that they have sexual relations, but does this mean that they are all prostitutes? I also said that sexual relations do not necessarily mean prostitution, so many people are indeed not prostitutes. Do a large number of reference materials say that they are prostitutes if they have sexual relations? We have agreed to co-edit before, but if you think they are prostitutes, and having sexual relations means prostitution, people like Zhu Ziqing are also brothel frequenters. Then I think there is no need for us to communicate more.Because this shows that our understanding is different, and this thing cannot be explained. So, you can rename the entry "Chinese courtesan", maybe this editing can satisfy various different views. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

A large number of reference materials indicate that gejis provide sexual services. What I mean is, does having sexual relations mean prostitution?

but if you think they are prostitutes, and having sexual relations means prostitution

What I think does not matter. The reliable sources say that Geji provide sexual entertainment as part of their profession, which means they are sometimes paid to engage in sexual activity with their clients. We can only represent in the article what the reliable sources say.

You have been told this numerous times now. You continue to mention our agreement to collaborate on improving the article, and you'll note that part of that was If you could supply sources and the translations, myself and others can make sure they are added to Geji and formatted properly in a way that would meet Wikipedia's quality standards

And

if you can just provide links/names of the sources and furnish a translation of them yourself for what they are saying, someone else can make sure they get cited properly and make sure the writing adheres to the quality standards of Wikipedia.

When you asked for assistance finding sources for the Tang Dynasty page, I was happy to oblige and set time aside and conducted the research and furnished the sources and allowed discussion to take place and for adjustments to be made to the Tang Dynasty article. You have not posted any sources like I had requested, you have not discussed any of the changes you unilaterally made, and you've made edits to the article that do not adhere to the policies on using sources. You make it sound like I've gone back on wanting to collaborate, but you never fulfilled my request to begin with.

If you had discussed the Zhu Ziqing piece ahead of time, I could have told you then that the source isn't appropriate per WP:RSCONTEXT. Brocade River Poems 11:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Added the content about whether gejis is a prostitute 清风与明月 (talk) 10:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Zhu Ziqing's prose cannot be used as a reference (I know it cannot be quoted, but I just want to say that he did not solicit prostitution). I don't understand, what do you mean by Zhu Ziqing's self-rationalization? Is his listening to music equivalent to soliciting prostitution? Did he do something immoral? Did he rationalize soliciting prostitution? 清风与明月 (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Self-rationalization, his earlier thought is about how it is immoral to approach prostitutes and that prostitution is an immoral profession. Then, when he is thinking about it, he is rationalizing to himself that selling songs is not the same as prostitution. Even though he identifies them initially in his first thought as prostitutes, and acknowledges the societal view that they are prostitutes, and admits that the moral law of society compels him to act a certain way because of this. He says My mind went back and forth between two opposite meanings indicating that his mind is torn between as prostitution is an improper profession, one should not be pleased with them, nor should one listen to their songs in a playful manner. and listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes, and what does it matter about morality?

He is describing his personal struggle about his hope of hearing songs. the "two opposite meanings" being the societal view that they are prostitutes and it is immoral to associate with them and his belief that listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes, so what does it matter about morality?

It is an entirely internal debate he is having with himself wherein he views the women as prostitutes because society views them as prostitutes and he is compelled by moral law to not interact with them, but he still wants to hear their singing, so he goes on to rationalize that sellong songs is not the same as prostitution (because a person comes aboard his boat and tries to sell him a songbook) and that listening to songs is not the same as being intimate with prostitutes.

At no point does he actually proclaim that the girls don't engage in prostitution, but rather, he is saying that selling songs and listening to those songs aren't the same as prostitution as a defense of his own desire to hear them singing. It isn't that Zhu Ziqing did something immoral, though by societal standards interacting with them would have evidently been seen as immoral as the profession was seen as inherently immoral, but rather he is rationalizing to himself that wanting to hear their songs isn't the same as being intimate with a prostitute. Brocade River Poems 09:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Please don't take my words out of context. I have already written a lot of what Zhu Ziqing said. If you insist that all the singing girls he mentioned are prostitutes, I can't help it. I also said that what Zhu Ziqing said has no reference value, so also please understand more about what he said, okay? He did not regard all these women as prostitutes, nor did he say that they were all prostitutes, so it was immoral. Do you understand? They must be Prostitution, and everyone is a prostitute. What is the basis? Is Zhu Ziqing self-rationalizing to find prostitutes? If you understand it this way, then the editors of this entry are destined to be unable to reach a consensus and can only change the name. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Zhu Ziqing's article cannot be used as a reference material, but he wrote that not all the scattered gejis at that time were engaged in prostitution. When the geji culture was popular in ancient China, the artistic level of gejis was higher. From some records, it can be seen that many of them were not prostitutes. If you check and think that they are prostitutes, and that some people engage in prostitution means that everyone is engaged in prostitution, and that sexual relations must be presented in the form of prostitution, then there is definitely no consensus on this, and you can only change the name of the entry and write down various different opinions on it. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:42, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Zhu Ziqing's article cannot be used as a reference material, but he wrote that not all the scattered gejis at that time were engaged in prostitution.

Except that isn't what the source says. It is an anecdote about his experience encountering "ji" on the river, the same "ji" that you yourself translated as prostitute at one point, and how they offered to sell him a songbook. He then goes into his mental dilemma about how interacting with them is immoral, and listening to them sing is also immoral. You are positing that he doesn't think of the women as prostitutes, which completely negates the need for him to explain "selling songs isn't prostitution".

Why would he even bring up prostitution if that "ji" he used in the preceding section didn't mean prostitute???? You are ignoring the context. You are taking what is an internal debate about the moral implication of his desire to hear them sing and the conflicting belief that "prostitution is an immoral profession so you shouldn't listen to them sing for fun" and the counter-arguement that "listening to singing isn't the same thing as being intimate with a prostitute" and deriving from that "Zhu Ziqing says not all Geji were prostitutes".

From some records, it can be seen that many of them were not prostitutes.

Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true. We cannot represent something which is not stated in Reliable Sources.

then there is definitely no consensus on this, and you can only change the name of the entry and write down various different opinions on it.

Again, this is untrue. We have an abundance of reliable sources that say Geji engaged in sexual activity as part of their profession, and no reliable sources to the contrary. There is "no consensus" on this because you are once again making edits that contradict what the sources say and are not following Wikipedia guidelines, such as when you edited Yang Wan (Gējì) again to change the word "lovers" to "friends" despite the fact that the sources say lovers. Brocade River Poems 11:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not sugarcoating anything. I said "sometimes they have sex with men, but many people are not prostitutes". Some people engage in prostitution, but not all of them engage in prostitution. There are sexual relationships, but they are not necessarily presented in the form of prostitution. Do you understand this concept? I plan to write about the prostitution of some people, but I don't have much time. I am also a student. If you don't understand this, then I can only change the name of the entry and write down all the different views. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Why do you say that they must be prostitution, and all of them are prostitutes? Zhu Ziqing never said that they were not prostitution, but did he say that all of them were prostitution? 清风与明月 (talk) 10:09, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I have posted this issue to WP:3O. Brocade River Poems 04:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

清风与明月 (talk) 04:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

清风与明月 (talk) 05:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.

Viewpoint by User:BrocadeRiverPoems

There are no sources which substantiate the statement that "Many geji were not prostitutes" and so the language should not be used in the lead. A majority of sources describe that Geji sometimes provided sexual services to their clients, and that is what the reliable sources say, and should be represented. Note: I am not advocating for the inclusion of the title 'prostitute' anywhere in the lead, the other editor is adding the word prostitute to argue they weren't prostitutes.Brocade River Poems 20:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

"A majority of sources describe that Geji sometimes provided sexual services to their clients" — Could you present one or two of the sources? Thanks, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing, here are three.

• Brook, Timothy The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(1998) University of California Press p.229-230 "No symbolic capital was garnered from patronizing prostitutes, since any male with a little cash could buy female sexual services in any Ming town. Desire needed other guises to participate in the fashion struggle. One of these guises was courtesanship."
• Blanchard, Lara Caroline Williams (2018) Song dynasty figures of longing and desire : gender and interiority in Chinese painting and poetry. Brill, Leiden. p.119 "Tang and Song dynasty "singing girls” (geji歌姬, literally "singing entertainers") or "courtesans" (ji妓) were composers and performers: women who possessed unparalleled talent at music or poetry and whom scholars especially admired for the ability to write verse. 60 They also provided sexual entertainment. In these periods, a courtesan's musical or literary accomplishments inextricably connect to an erotic performance at which she excelled;"
• The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music: East Asia: China, Japan, and Korea. United Kingdom, Taylor & Francis, 2017. "In most cases, the boundary between the yueji's music and dance and the sexual services they rendered was blurred. At different historical periods, various terms have been used to describe the yueji (Xiu and Jian 1993); these terms include nüyue (female musicians and dancers), wu (female shamans), gongji (female court entertainers), guanji (government-sponsored female entertainers), yingji (army- sponsored female entertainers), jiaji (privately owned female entertainers), geji (female singers), and mingji (courtesans)."

I am providing three because Timothy Brook never refers to geji specifically, only "courtesans" and "prostitutes", though Geji are courtesans. Brocade River Poems 23:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I just want the record to note that the other editor in this dispute requested that we seek an outside opinion, has thus far not participated in the discussion, and has continued to remove well sourced content from the article as seen here [1]. I also want to state that the very article the other editor included reads Many historical facts were clarified thanks to the scholar Chen Yinke who did a detailed textual research in his Anecdotal Biography of Liu Rushi on the love between Chen Zilong , a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi , a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent

I think it is perhaps safe to declare that this 3PO has failed. Brocade River Poems 03:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

What content specifically is in dispute? What would you like to add and/or remove

I made some changes here for now. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The content that is in dispute is they continue to misrepresent sources in an attempt to whitewash that Geji engaged in sexual intercourse as part of their profession. Frankly, the entire article needs to be re-written as it is a meandering incoherent mess that asserts so heavily that Geji aren't prostitutes throughout it, that it leaves the only logical conclusion to be that they were prostitutes. You have removed the content most recently added that was the source of the dispute, i.e the "many weren't prostitutes", but as noted they changed the content again [2] here, where they added The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship. and removed , despite the fact that the abstract for that journal article they added explicitly states Liu Rushi was a prostitute, and then they add a source that is just "Li Yueshen,95" which cannot in any way be verified. Brocade River Poems 04:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I see this is being dealt with at ANI. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, because the issue stretches beyond a content issue. Brocade River Poems 23:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I understand. Hopefully ANI can deal with the conduct dispute aspect. I agree with John B123 that 清风与明月 should not be continuing to edit the page without participating in this discussion.

@BrocadeRiverPoems, regarding the content dispute, what specifically would you like the article to look like? What specific changes can you propose?

Also, @John B123 please feel free to participate in this discussion and to offer your opinion as well if you'd like. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

What specific changes do I propose? That's hard at this juncture to even discuss. Most editors who have looked at the article have said that it needs a complete re-write. Beyond that, the purpose of the 3PO was regarding the statements that the other editor was making in the lead of the article that were not substantiated with any significant reliable sources (i.e, definitively stating in Wikivoice that many geji did not perform sexual services despite numerous sources saying they do). As that dispute has already been resolved, the "Life and Performance" section currently reads Gejis had low social standing,they were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with customers.The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship. The qualification attached that "The sexual relationship between a geji and her customer was usually more like a cohabitation relationship" isn't supported by one of the sources cited, and the second source isn't properly cited and thus cannot be checked and verified. They essentially are using an anecdotal experience of one geji to make the claim that all geji's relationships were "usually more like a cohabitation relationship".

Frankly, naming all of the numerous issues and things that need to change about the article is probably far beyond the scope of WP:3PO, and I don't really have the time to spend the entire night picking through the entire article for every dubiously supported or insufficiently sourced claim that is doubtless present. To be frank, the editor in question has added over 100,000 bytes to the article. The last version of the article prior to their intervention is [3], and should in all probability serve as a base for a re-written article. Brocade River Poems 01:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Upon further investigation of the history of the Geji page, I am of the belief that the last version of the article prior to the editor's involvement is actually probably actually this one [4]. Brocade River Poems 02:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I see. The difference between that revision and the present page is quite vast. I'm not sure how to proceed here and it may be true that "the numerous issues and things that need to change about the article is probably far beyond the scope of WP:3PO". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:27, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

。Hello, I have put the details here, please read it in full, thank you. I did not say that they do not have sex, nor did I deny that some people are engaged in prostitution. But defining this profession as essentially prostitution women, or even saying that they are engaging in prostitution under some guise, I think is too biased and discriminatory. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I have found another source which discusses "singing girls", in particular though it notes A more serious obstacle has been discomfort with the extent to which music and sex were intertwined in the courtesan world. The idealizing impulse evident in much contemporary scholarship extends a cultural bias in the historical sources themselves. To prove that a courtesan was truly cultured, her gifts as a poet rather than a musical performer were most important and Singing was fundamental to the courtesan's arts in China not only because song was a social and sexual lubricant and the lyrics were appreciated for their literary and sentimental value, but because singing itself, when offered as entertainment at banquets or other settings, was culturally gendered as feminine.

• Feldman, Martha, ed. (2006). The courtesan's arts: cross-cultural perspectives. Oxford: Oxford Univ. Press. pp. 78–80. ISBN 978-0-19-517028-3.

Of particular interest on the subject is The idealizing impulse evident in much contemporary scholarship extends a cultural bias in the historical sources themselves. My own emphasis added, because it seems to be very related to our dispute. Brocade River Poems 00:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@IOHANNVSVERVS: The ANI is more about conduct than content. Your 3PO would be greatly appreciated here.

@清风与明月: Please refrain from editing further until IOHANNVSVERVS gives their opinion. This is the usual procedure during dispute resolution. --John B123 (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you define it by. I didn't copy the content of Chinese Wikipedia. Many things here are not on Chinese Wikipedia. Sing song girl is not the real translation of geji and singing girl. This context comes from the prostitutes/sex workers in the Republic of China period. They are prostitutes. Because Westerners in China at that time didn't understand, they mistakenly thought they were "singing girls" and gave the prostitutes the name "Sing song girl". The literal meaning of "Sing Song Girl" in English may seem to mean a singing girl or a literal translation of a singing girl, but in reality, it is not. According to Zhang Ailing, "Sing song girl" is a term derived from the Wu language, which also refers to high-end prostitutes as "sir". "Sir" can be a polite term for anyone, regardless of gender. In Wu's language, 'sir' is pronounced as 'Xisang', but the English and American people in Shanghai mistakenly thought it was ' sing song', and they were required to sing at banquets. Therefore, 'sing song girl' is named after it, not the translated name of a singer girl. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Since there is too much content to be sent here in full, I will just put it here. Here is everything I want to say about Geji's sexual issues.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:G%C4%93j%C3%AC 清风与明月 (talk) 12:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Viewpoint by John B123

There are several issues here:

1. Following the interwiki links, Gējì (歌妓、歌伎、歌姬) links to the Chinese zh:藝妓 (泛稱) (Geisha) which redirects to zh:交際花 (courtesan). Much of the content of the English article Gējì has been translated from the Chinese article zh:歌女 (Song Girl), which links back to the English Sing-song girls. There is obviously confusion over terms which has led to issues with the article.
2. Even prior to 清风与明月's involvement the article was a mess.
3. 清风与明月 seems to be striving to bring the article inline with zh:歌女 (Song Girl), however as the two article are not a direct match this is inappropriate.
4. Some content is unreferenced. Where content is referenced, the referencing is poor, some fails verification, others added more recently are to obscure offline sources which cannot be verified.

IMHO the content of articles on the Chinese Wikipedia should been ignored as there is no article that is a direct match to Gējì.

Although the article is close to the tipping point of WP:TNT, I would suggest WP:ATD-E is appropriate here, i.e. Reducing to stub a that is fully verified by reliable sources. --John B123 (talk) 09:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I think I have already take the middle context and edited it. I have already written that providing sexual services is part of the ancient Chinese geji profession. I don't understand why it was deleted, and I have provided available references.

Here I will talk about my edit. At the same time, not all geji are prostitution. Some people engage in prostitution does not mean that all people engage in prostitution. I don't think this is whitewashing. On the contrary, it is biased to label this group of female entertainers in history as necessarily engaging in prostitution and that they are all engaged in prostitution.

It is obviously not true to say that all Western scholars believe that gejis are prostitution women, that they are entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers. Because some Western reference materials I read wrote that there are sexual relationships, but they did not say that sex must be defined as prostitution. If take it out of context and think that all Western scholars say that they are prostitution, I don’t think it is appropriate.

They were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with patrons.Nevertheless, ancient chinese gejis were more famous for their outstanding musical and literary talents than their sexual services.(I also kept the description of them having sex with men, and added that they were more famous for their musical and literary talents than their sexual services. This is also based on reference materials and is the view of Western scholar.https://web.archive.org/web/20240106045528/http://people.hws.edu/blanchard/ASN304/syllabus10.html The scholar said:“Look up the word "courtesan" in a dictionary, say Merriam-Webster's tenth edition, and one finds the following definition: "a prostitute with a courtly, wealthy, or upper-class clientele." Historically, however, the courtesans of China or Japan have been women whose appeal lay primarily in their surpassing musical and literary cultivation, not their sexual services. The demimonde of the elite Chinese "singing girl" or the Japanese geisha across the centuries.”)

Gejis have engaged in sexual activity with patrons,the sexual relationship between a geji and her patron sometimes was a cohabitation relationship.(I also kept the description of sex. The reference I cited here is from a Chinese scholarhttps://www.zjujournals.com/soc/CN/abstract/abstract8785.shtml. This is about Liu Rushi and Chen Zilong, saying that they lived together because they were in love, not because of prostitution. My description is that sometimes gejis lived together, and I don't think I have sugarcoated anything, because it is true that not everything is prostitution.)

Although sexual services were one of the services provided by a geji, her identity was that of an entertainer.(I even kept the description of sexual services. But combined with what I said before and after, they are really not essentially prostitution. It is also a fact that some people engage in prostitution, but not everyone does. So I don't think it is necessary to describe them as entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers here.New Era Chinese-English Dictionary, English definition: geji or singing girl is a female singer and dancer.https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=6VEZAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Geji+singing%22&redir_esc=y)

作者:Timothy James Brook([加]卜正民)，译者:Fangjun(方骏) (2004).“The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(纵乐的困惑：明代的商业与文化)”.Oxford:生活·读书·新知三联书店.ISBN 9787108020062.  262—264)This is also a book by a Western scholar. He did not define geji's sex must as prostitution. This book also has an English version, and it seems to use "geisha" to describe geji.Here, it is said that the geji/geisha exist outside the marriage and concubinage system. These women are well-educated. The gejis are a manifestation of a specific cultural meaning in history. The geji profession reshapes the purely sexual relationship of prostitutes into a cultural relationship, or even a like-minded interaction. When men pursue the confidantes of the talented scholars and beautiful women in romantic stories, but cannot find them in the arranged marriages and money marriages in reality, the geji/geisha appear.So, what I said is that they should not be defined as necessarily engaging in prostitution. This is appropriate. Gejis can be a cultural relationship, or even a relationship established by like-minded people. So their professional nature should not be defined as prostitution.)

Because I had not finished editing, it was deleted. That's what I want to say. I deny the accusation that I edited maliciously and added useless references. The content I added all has references, which are also usable, and some are even research by Western scholars 清风与明月 (talk) 12:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The geji profession reshapes the purely sexual relationship of prostitutes into a cultural relationship, or even a like-minded interaction.

That isn't what it says. It says No symbolic capital was garnered from patronizing prostitutes, since any male with a little cash could buy female sexual services in any Ming town. Desire needed other guises to participate in the fashion struggle. One of these guises was courtesanship. Briefly in the closing decades of the dynasty, some late-Ming gentry acquired educated women as courtesans outside the institutions of both marriage and concubinage. Courtesanship was made to bear a cultural significa-tion specific to the age. It rewrote the purely sexual relationship of prostitution as a literary, even companionate relationship. That courtesanship is a guise and that it rewrote the purely sexual relationship of prostitution as a literary, even companionate relationship because there was no social capital to be gained from just hiring common prostitutes when anyone who had money could hire prostitutes, so the wealthy gentry would choose courtesans who were trained in literary arts but at the end of the day it was a guise, they were still sexual relationships, they were just no longer purely sexual. Brocade River Poems 01:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Finally, I did not edit maliciously. As for the page and references, I also said that I am also a student, so I need to improve it step by step. It is impossible to complete so many things overnight. I also said that the references will be gradually supplemented. In addition, this entry page only had a few sentences at the beginning, and now so many things are sorted out by me alone. I think I have made a contribution, not a destruction. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

“Geji” this title can be seen here. There are also 歌妓, 歌伎, and 歌姬.

https://dao.sg/dict/325564

https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=6VEZAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Geji+singing%22&redir_esc=y 清风与明月 (talk) 12:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

That's all I want to say for now. I'm not denying or whitewashing anything. I admit that sex exists, but I'm just saying that sex doesn't necessarily appear in the form of prostitution. Just like Japanese geishas, ​​although this profession no longer exists in China, geji was a cultural manifestation in ancient China, and they made great contributions to ancient Chinese culture and art. So I don't think they should be defined as sex workers. That's what I want to say, and the reference material also shows that not all people are prostitution womens. If there is anything you don't understand, please continue to communicate, thank you. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the entry should be blown up or deleted. The original entry was "Yiji", an incomplete term, and the initial entry only had a few sentences, even citing an early personal blog. You will find that the initial entry was worse than the current one. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I want to know if the discussion is over and when this entry can be edited? I can't edit it properly, and they say the entry will be deleted. Isn't this just targeting me, making me unable to edit at all and having to face the panic of the entry suddenly being deleted? So, result is? Thank you.。 清风与明月 (talk) 18:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。What I proposed is that I admit that they have sex, and I have not denied it. The Chinese translation of this book by a Western scholar is what I said, and he did not say that sex exists must for prostitution. I don't understand, what is the essence of the geji profession? What is the fact that the geji profession cannot be changed no matter what? What is it that they are in a guise? What is whitewashing and beautification? What is it that sex is prostitution? 清风与明月 (talk) 06:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。From my perspective, what's wrong with having sex? The fact is that it does not exist for the purpose of prostitution. The profession of a geji is female singers and dancers, and some are poets. Sex does not necessarily exist for prostitution, and it is secondary, which is the same as Japanese geishas and Indian tawaifs. Sexual relations can even be "monogamous". So I don't think that they can be written in the text as "prostitution is part of the geji's profession", "the geji's profession is to sell art and prostitution at the same time", "the essence of the geji is prostitution, but they serve rich men, they are guise , and even men whitewash them", I don't think it is reasonable to write like this. Meanwhile, the geji entry has been broadly categorized under the Chinese prostitution page below, and like the Indian tawaif, it has been broadly categorized, but the text does explain that sex is not necessarily prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。In ancient China, gejis could not get married during their careers, and could only get married after leaving their careers. They had their own lifestyles, and they also had sworn sisterhood ceremonies. I don't think they should be defined as essentially prostitution womens. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:38, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

So, when can this entry be edited? 清风与明月 (talk) 08:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree re: WP:ATD-E. Brocade River Poems 18:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。Hello.Sorry to bother you again.Can apply for an expert editor for this entry? I came across this. Perhaps this entry may need an expert to give an intermediate description of sexual issues.https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Expert_editors 清风与明月 (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia was edited to include references to sexual performances, and in that one place, the exact same reference was even repeated twice in parallel in that one place, which is really a bit... 清风与明月 (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

。

This was written by a Ming Dynasty person, when the geji culture was still intact. So now everyone in the Ming Dynasty knew that they were expensive prostitutes? This is obviously not the case. And at least in ancient China, women's sex was not just about marriage and prostitution or professional sex transactions. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying that this reference is available, I am just showing it here. At the same time, some books may not have such high references. For example, it says that the performances of geji in the Song Dynasty of China were music performances and sexual performances. In the Song Dynasty of China, geji was a combination of performing and prostitution, which was the same as in medieval Europe and New Orleans, USA. This is obviously inaccurate. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

。And now Wikipedia cited references about sexual performances, and even cited the same reference twice in one sentence. I think the bias is a bit big.To be honest, I didn't even know what a sex Performance,in performing arts.

明·凌濛初《二刻拍案惊奇》卷十二——硬勘案大儒争闲气　甘受刑侠女著芳名:“此时台州太守乃是唐与正，字仲友，少年高才，风流文彩。宋时法度，官府有酒，皆召歌妓承应，只站着歌唱送酒，不许私侍寝席(There was a law in the Song Dynasty that when the government held a cocktail party, gejis would be invited, but they were only required to stand and sing and serve wine, and were not allowed to sleep with the guests privately.)；却是与他谑浪狎昵，也算不得许多清处。仲友见严蕊如此十全可喜，尽有眷顾之意，只为官箴拘束，不敢胡为。但是良辰佳节，或宾客席上，必定召他来侑酒。一日，红白桃花盛开，仲友置酒赏玩，严蕊少不得来供应。饮酒中间，仲友晓得他善于词咏，就将红白桃花为题，命赋小词。严蕊应声成一阙，词云：道是梨花不是，道是杏花不是。白白与红红，别是东风情味。曾记，曾记，人在武陵微醉。——词寄《如梦今》。吟罢，呈上仲友。仲友看毕大喜，赏了他两匹缣帛。”I don't know what the proportion of prostitution among geji was during the Song Dynasty, but it is obviously biased to say that the essence of this profession is to sell art and prostitution at the same time. And what is said here is that the performance of geji, singing the traditional Chinese poem "Ru Meng Ling(如梦令)", is not a sexual performance. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The word geji has always existed in ancient Chinese, and even the Kangxi Dictionary(康熙字典) mentions gejis. I don't need to make up history. If this entry never existed on the English Wikipedia, I wouldn't even create it. I don't need to make up history or promote anything. I just edited this entry because it only has a few sentences at the beginning and it's lying there half-dead. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

《康熙字典》263.01　 娥：《唐韻》五何切《集韻》《正韻》牛何切，𠀤音蛾。好也。《揚子·方言》秦謂好曰娥。又星娥，帝少昊母。娥皇，堯女舜妻。見《史記》。又嫦娥，羿妾。《後漢·天文志》嫦娥竊羿不死藥，奔月，及之，爲蟾蜍。又夸娥，天女也。見《列子·湯問篇》。又韓娥(han e)，歌妓(geji)也。《博物志》韓娥之齊，粥歌假食，旣去，餘響繞梁三日。又姓。見《姓苑》。The word "geji" does exist, and I can even find many historical records. But since everyone doesn't understand Chinese, there's no need for me to write it all down. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, nobody is saying that the word "Geji" doesn't exist, I proposed changing the article to "Mingji" because it seems to be more prominent. Refer to WP:ESTABLISHED. In fact, if you search "Gējì" on google, it suggets "What did Chinese courtesans do?" which leads to The Curious Case of Chinese Courtesan Culture By JunRu Wu which uses "ji" and "mingji" but without once mentioning geji, which also states This requires a comprehension of the etymology of the term, and how the English language may fail to reflect this idea in a translation. Classical Chinese is known to have a variety of words to define women in specific roles and duties within a given social ladder, the most common of these would refer to a courtesan as ji.3 While sexual favors may be one of the services provided by ji, she is first and foremost an entertainer. Chinese courtesan culture was defined by several integral points: a skill in the literary arts, such as writing and poetry; a comprehension in song and singing; a setting of trends in fashion and art; as well as the ability to combine these talents to promote a literary exchange amongst the elite.4 From this criteria, one can understand that beyond sexual services, a courtesan was most prized for her intellect, wit, and an academic comprehension of the fine arts Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Viewpoint by (name here)

....

@清风与明月, any response?

Third opinion by IOHANNVSVERVS

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References

Regarding the question of whether all geji are prostitutes, and whether Zhu Ziqing is rationalizing himself (I know his prose cannot be quoted, I just said that listening to music is equivalent to rationalizing looking for prostitutes?)

一九二三年八月的一晚，我和平伯同游秦淮河；平伯是初泛，我是重来了。我们雇了一只“七板子”，在夕陽已去，皎月方来的时候，便下了船。于是桨声汩──汩，我们开始领略那晃荡着蔷薇色的历史的秦淮河的滋味了。One night in August 1923, Pingbo and I went on a trip to the Qinhuai River together; it was Pingbo's first time, and I was here again. We hired a "seven-board boat" and got off the boat when the sun had set and the bright moon was just coming. Then, with the sound of oars, we began to appreciate the Qinhuai River, which was swaying with its rosy history.

First of all, Zhu Ziqing was just enjoying the scenery on a boat with his friends, and he did not go to find a prostitute. It happened that there was a singing girl on another boat, and he finally listened to her song.

秦淮河上原有一种歌妓，是以歌为业的。从前都在茶舫上，唱些大曲之类。每日午后一时起，什么时候止，却忘记了。晚上照样也有一回，也在黄晕的灯光里。我从前过南京时，曾随着朋友去听过两次。因为茶舫里的人脸太多了，觉得不大适意，终于听不出所以然。前年听说歌妓被取缔了，不知怎的，颇涉想了几次─—却想不出什么。这次到南京，先到茶舫上去看看，觉得颇是寂寥，令我无端的怅怅了。不料她们却仍在秦淮河里挣扎着，不料她们竟会纠缠到我们，我于是很张皇了，她们也乘着“七板子”，她们总是坐在舱前的。舱前点着石油汽灯，光亮眩人眼目：坐在下面的，自然是纤毫毕见了─—引诱客人们的力量，也便在此了。舱里躲着乐工等人，映着汽灯的余辉蠕动着；他们是永远不被注意的。每船的歌妓大约都是二人；天色一黑，她们的船就在大中桥外往来不息的兜生意。无论行着的船，泊着的船，都是要来兜揽的。这都是我后来推想出来的。那晚不知怎样，忽然轮着我们的船了。我们的船好好的停着，一只歌舫划向我们来了；渐渐和我们的船并着了。There used to be a kind of singing courtesans(gejis) on the Qinhuai River, who made their living by singing. They used to go to teahouses and sing some big songs. They started singing in the afternoon every day, and I have forgotten when they stopped. There was still a performance in the evening, also in the yellow light. When I went to Nanjing before, I went to listen to it twice with my friends. Because there were too many people in the teahouse, I felt uncomfortable and didn't hear anything. The year before last, I heard that gejis were banned. I don't know why, I thought about it several times, but I couldn't think of anything. This time when I went to Nanjing, I went to the teahouse first to take a look. I felt very deserted, which made me depressed for no reason. Unexpectedly, they were still struggling in the Qinhuai River. Unexpectedly, they would entangle us, so I was very panicked. They also rode "seven boards", and they always sat in the front of the cabin. There was a kerosene lamp in front of the cabin, and the light was dazzling: those sitting below could naturally see every detail - the power to seduce guests was also here. There were musicians and others on the boats, moving in the afterglow of the gas lamps, and they were never noticed. There were about two gejis on each boat; as soon as it got dark, their boats would go back and forth outside Dazhong Bridge to solicit business. Whether the boats were moving or moored, they were all here to solicit business. I figured this out later. I don't know how it happened that night, but it was suddenly our boat's turn. Our boat was parked well, and a geji came towards us, gradually catching up with our boat.

Obviously, Zhu Ziqing did not go to visit prostitutes and then justify his behavior by saying that he was just listening to music. Obviously not.

烁烁的灯光逼得我们皱起了眉头；我们的风尘色全给它托出来了，这使我[足叔][足昔]不安了。那时一个伙计跨过船来，拿着摊开的歌折，就近塞向我的手里，“点几出吧！”他跨过来的时候，我们船上似乎有许多眼光跟着。同时相近的别的船上也似乎有许多眼睛炯炯的向我们船上看着。我真窘了！我也装出大方的样子，向歌妓们瞥了一眼，但究竟是不成的！我勉强将那歌折翻了一翻，却不曾看清了几个字；便赶紧递还那伙计，一面不好意思地说：“不要。我们……不要。”他便塞给平伯，平伯掉转头去，摇手说：“不要。”那人还腻着不走。平伯又回过脸来，摇着头道，“不要！”于是那人重到我处。我窘着再拒绝了他。他这才有所不屑似的走了。我的心立刻放下，如释了重负一般。我们就开始自白了。

The gleaming lights forced us to frown. How our expressions were highlighted by the lights made me feel uneasy. At that time, a waiter stepped across the boat, holding a spread-out song list, and stuffed it into my hand, "Order a few songs!" When he stepped across, it seemed that many eyes were following him on our boat. At the same time, it seemed that many eyes on other nearby boats were looking at our boat with sharp eyes. I was really embarrassed! I also pretended to be generous and glanced at the singing girls, but it was unsuccessful! I reluctantly flipped through the song list, but I couldn't see a few words clearly, so I quickly handed the song list back to the waiter, saying embarrassedly, "No. We... don't want to listen." He then stuffed it to Pingbo, Pingbo turned his head away, shook his hand and said, "No." The man still didn't leave. Pingbo turned his head again, shook his head and said, "No!" So the man came to man came to me again. I rejected him again in embarrassment. He left with disdain. My heart was immediately relieved, as if a heavy burden had been lifted. We started monologue.

清风与明月 (talk) 06:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

我说我受了道德律的压迫，拒绝了她们；心里似乎很抱歉的。这所谓抱歉，一面对于她们。一面对于我自己。她们于我们虽然没有很奢的希望；但总有些希望的。我们拒绝了她们，无论理由如何充足，却使她们的希望受了伤；这总有几分不做美了。这是我觉得很怅怅的。至于我自己，更有一种不足之感。我这时被四面的歌声诱惑了，降伏了；但是远远的，远远的歌声总仿佛隔着重衣搔痒似的，越搔越搔不着痒处。我于是憧憬着贴耳的妙音了。在歌舫划来时，我的憧憬，变为盼望；我固执的盼望着，有如饥渴。虽然从浅薄的经验里，也能够推知，那贴耳的歌声，将剥去了一切的美妙；但一个平常的人象我的，谁愿凭了理性之力去丑化未来呢？我宁愿自己骗着了。不过我的社会感性是很敏锐的；我的思力能拆穿道德律的西洋镜，而我的感情却终于被它压服着。我于是有所顾忌了，尤其是在众目昭彰的时候。道德律的力，本来是民众赋予的；在民众的面前，自然更显出它的威严了。我这时一面盼望，一面却感到了两重的禁制：一，在通俗的意义上，接近妓者总算一种不正当的行为；二，妓是一种不健全的职业，我们对于她们，应有哀矜勿喜之心，不应赏玩的去听她们的歌。在众目睽睽之下，这两种思想在我心里最为旺盛。她们暂时压倒了我的听歌的盼望，这便成就了我的灰色的拒绝。那时的心实在异常状态中，觉得颇是昏乱。歌舫去了，暂时宁静之后，我的思绪又如潮涌了。两个相反的意思在我心头往复：卖歌和卖婬不同，听歌和狎妓不同，又干道德甚事？─—但是，但是，她们既被逼的以歌为业，她们的歌必无艺术味的；况她们的身世，我们究竟该同情的。所以拒绝倒也是正办。但这些意思终于不曾撇开我的听歌的盼望。它力量异常坚强；它总想将别的思绪踏在脚下。从这重重的争斗里，我感到了浓厚的不足之感。这不足之感使我的心盘旋不安，起坐都不安宁了。唉！我承认我是一个自私的人！平伯呢，却与我不同。他引周启明先生的诗，“因为我有妻子，所以我爱一切的女人；因为我有子女，所以我爱一切的孩子。”①他的意思可以见了。他因为推及的同情，爱着那些歌妓，并且尊重着她们，所以拒绝了她们。在这种情形下，他自然以为听歌是对于她们的一种侮辱。但他也是想听歌的，虽然不和我一样。所以在他的心中，当然也有一番小小的争斗；争斗的结果，是同情胜了。至于道德律，在他是没有什么的；因为他很有蔑视一切的倾向，民众的力量在他是不大觉着的。这时他的心意的活动比较简单，又比较松弱，故事后还怡然自若；我却不能了。这里平伯又比我高了。

I said that I was oppressed by moral precepts and rejected them, and I felt very sorry in my heart. This so-called apology is for them and for myself. Although they don’t have more hope from us, they still have some hope. We rejected them, no matter how sufficient the reasons were, but it hurt their hope, which is always a bit unfair. This makes me feel very sad. As for myself, I have an even greater sense of inadequacy. At this time, I was tempted and conquered by the singing all around. But the distant singing always seemed to scratch an itch through heavy clothes, and it was getting less and less itchable. So I longed for the wonderful music close to my ears. When the singing boat rowed over, my longing turned into hope. I stubbornly hoped, like hunger and thirst. Although from shallow experience, I can also infer that the singing close to the ear will strip away all the beauty. But for an ordinary person like me, who is willing to use the power of reason to vilify the future? I would rather deceive myself. However, my social sensibility is very sharp; my thinking ability can expose the magic of moral precepts, but my emotions are finally overwhelmed by it. So I have some reservations, especially when it is in the public eye. The power of moral precepts is originally given by the people; in front of the public, it naturally shows its majesty. At this time, I was looking forward to it, but at the same time I felt two restrictions: first, in the popular sense, approaching jis (courtesans and prostitutes) is always an improper behavior; second, jis (in Chinese tradition, "Ji" has different types and professions, not all "ji" are prostitutes, "ji" has prostitutes, and there are also singing and dancing females. I don’t know if I can make people understand this. Here Zhu Ziqing is not only talking about prostitutes) is an unhealthy profession. We should have a sympathetic heart towards them, and we should not listen to their songs for fun. Under the public eye, these two thoughts are the most vigorous in my heart. They temporarily overwhelmed my hope of listening to songs, which led to my gray rejection. My mind was in an abnormal state at that time, and I felt quite confused. After the singing boat left and I was temporarily calm, my thoughts surged again. Two opposite ideas went back and forth in my mind: selling songs is different from prostitution, and listening to songs is different from soliciting prostitution. What's the moral issue? - But, but, since they are forced to sing for a living, their songs must have no artistic taste; and we should sympathize with their life experiences. So it's a good thing to refuse. But these ideas never abandoned my hope of listening to songs. It is extremely strong, and it always wants to trample other thoughts under its feet. From this heavy struggle, I felt a strong sense of inadequacy. This sense of inadequacy made my heart restless and I couldn't sit still. Alas! I admit that I am a selfish person! Pingbo is different from me. He quoted Mr. Zhou Qiming's poem, "Because I have a wife, I love all women; because I have children, I love all children." His meaning is clear. Because of his sympathy, he loved those gejis and respected them, so he rejected them. Under such circumstances, he naturally thought that listening to songs was an insult to them. But he also wanted to listen to songs, although not as much as I did. So of course there was a small struggle in his heart, and the result of the struggle was that sympathy won. As for moral precepts, they were nothing to him. Because he had a tendency to despise everything, he was not very aware of the power of the people. At this time, his mental activities were relatively simple and weak, and he was still at ease after the story. But I can't do it. Here Pingbo is higher than me again.

I know that Zhu Ziqing's articles are not suitable as reference materials. But please, in order to prove that his reference materials cannot be used as evidence, just say no directly. Is it biased to say that Zhu Ziqing is visit prostitute and that he writes articles to whitewash himself? Please say directly that it cannot be used as reference materials, but do not judge Zhu Ziqing out of context to prove that everything he said is wrong. This is the complete content of this paragraph. I have marked some of the content. Who is the prostitute? Who is the visit prostitute who writes articles to whitewash himself? Who distinguishes between selling songs and prostitution in order to whitewash himself? Zhu Ziqing did not do this. (I know his articles cannot be used as references. Here I just want to say that there is no need to stigmatize him and then prove that everything he said is wrong. It is really unnecessary) 清风与明月 (talk) 07:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

In Zhu Ziqing's time, the geji system had disappeared for a long time. There were still some gejis who made a living by singing in teahouses. They were no longer educated and only knew how to sing. Later, they were also banned from singing in teahouses, so they could only sing on the "seven-board" boats. It is impossible to judge whether all these gejis were prostitutes, but it is obvious that some did not engage in prostitution and only sang for a living.

So I don't understand, is it biased to say that gejis themselves are engaged in prostitution? If there are people in the profession who are engaged in prostitution, can it be determined that all people in this profession are prostitutes? And can it be determined that this profession is both an artist and a sex worker?

Due to the difference in times, in ancient China, gejis' performances were not considered to be specifically seducing men, nor were they considered to have no value in their art. In Zhu Ziqing's time, society was very unstable, the number of prostitutes was particularly large, and gejis almost disappeared. The remaining gejis were considered to be seducing men with their performances, and their art was also worthless. This is the reason for the change of times, not because they are all prostitutes.

Zhu Ziqing also said it in the article, so he said "social morality, the public's thinking, think that the singing of gejis must have no artistic content, and think that listening to gejis singing is immoral". Zhu Ziqing did not dare to listen to them singing, even though he liked to listen to songs. So how did it become that he found prostitutes himself, he struggled with morality because of finding prostitutes, he wanted to rationalize that he found prostitutes, in order to whitewash, and then wrote an article saying that gejis are not prostitutes? Just to rationalize and whitewash?

I think what Zhu Ziqing said is not contradictory to the facts. He said that gejis are not prostitutes, singing is not equal to prostitution, which is also a statement of fact, isn't it? How did what he said contradict historical facts? He said that they are not prostitutes, and they are different from prostitution, so did he say that all gejis did not engage in prostitution? He didn't say that, right? So this is a contradiction, is he whitewashing it?

What I want to clarify is, are all the sexual relations of gejis prostitution? If some of them engage in prostitution, does that mean that the gejis themselves are prostitutes? Therefore, when I say "they sometimes have sexual relations with men, but many of them are not prostitutes", is this contrary to the facts? 清风与明月 (talk) 08:22, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

到大中桥近处，才遇着一只来船。这是一只载妓的板船，黑漆漆的没有一点光。船头上坐着一个妓女；暗里看出，白地小花的衫子，黑的下衣。她手里拉着胡琴，口里唱着青衫的调子。When we got close to Dazhong Bridge, we saw a boat approaching. It was a wooden boat carrying prostitutes, dark and without any light. There was a prostitute sitting on the bow of the boat. In the dark, we could see that she was wearing a white shirt with small flowers and black trousers. She was playing the huqin and singing the tune of Qingshan.

临水的妓楼上，时时从帘缝里射出一线一线的灯光。In the brothel by the water, lines of light would occasionally shine through the gaps in the curtains.

The entire article is about what Zhu Ziqing saw when he and his friends took a boat trip on the Qinhuai River. He mentioned that there were gejis, prostitutes, and brothels in the area. So he obviously knew the difference and didn't sugarcoat anything. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that even though Zhu Ziqing's statement cannot be used as a reference to the fact that gejis are not prostitutes, some of the issues he mentioned about gejis can be used. His description is the most direct description of the gejis active on the Qibanzi during the Republic of China period. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I really don't want to whitewash anything, nor do I deny that they have sex with men, but they are all prostitutions? Are they all prostitutes? I know I don't want to talk too much here, but because I don't want to cause any unnecessary misunderstandings, I wrote out what Zhu Ziqing said in a more complete way. I know that Zhu Ziqing's words have no reference value, but Zhu Ziqing is not a “brothel frequenter”, and he did not rationalize or whitewash his. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

What I want to clarify is, are all the sexual relations of gejis prostitution? If some of them engage in prostitution, does that mean that the gejis themselves are prostitutes? Therefore, when I say "they sometimes have sexual relations with men, but many of them are not prostitutes", is this contrary to the facts?

As editors of Wikipedia,we can only represent in the article what the Reliable Sources say. You shouldn't be saying they sometimes have sexual relations with men, but many of them are not prostitutes unless there are reliable sources that explicitly say so. There is also no reason to bring up prostitutes or prostitution at all. All of the sources we have say Geji were courtesans, and it is generally understood in English that courtesans are not the same thing as average prostitutes.

I did not say anything about Zhu Ziqing's character, nor did I say he "whitewashed" anything. Frankly, your entire argument that "ji" in this instance doesn't mean prostitute is entirely disingenious because why else would he be following that line of thought with singing being different from prostitution? Why would he mention prostitution at all if the "ji" he was referring to were not, in fact, prostitutes. He isn't "rationalizing" him trying to solicit prostitutes, he is rationalizing to himself that wanting to listen to them sing isn't tantamount to engaging in intimacy with a prostitute.

He speaks of moral law and being in the public eye and how his first thoughts were that they were prostitutes and that since prostitution is an inherently immoral profession, one should not want to listen to them sing. He then goes on to explain that despite this, he still hopes to hear them sing, and he then explains that he has two contradicting thoughts in his mind the first being his earlier statement that we should not listen to their songs for fun and second being listening to songs is different from soliciting prostitution.

Moving on

It is impossible to judge whether all these gejis were prostitutes, but it is obvious that some did not engage in prostitution and only sang for a living.

That isn't for us to decide, we can only represent what the reliable sources say.

is it biased to say that gejis themselves are engaged in prostitution? If there are people in the profession who are engaged in prostitution, can it be determined that all people in this profession are prostitutes? And can it be determined that this profession is both an artist and a sex worker?

If the sources say that Geji engaged in sexual services, then that is what we must represent. It is not biased to represent what the sources are saying.

Due to the difference in times, in ancient China, gejis' performances were not considered to be specifically seducing men, nor were they considered to have no value in their art. In Zhu Ziqing's time, society was very unstable, the number of prostitutes was particularly large, and gejis almost disappeared. The remaining gejis were considered to be seducing men with their performances, and their art was also worthless. This is the reason for the change of times, not because they are all prostitutes.

Once again, refer to "that isn't what the sources say".

I think what Zhu Ziqing said is not contradictory to the facts. He said that gejis are not prostitutes, singing is not equal to prostitution, which is also a statement of fact, isn't it?

No, it isn't. The essay is not a statement of fact. He is detailing his personal experiences, as I've already explained. He never once in the entire essay says that Geji are not prostitutes and that the women did not engage in prostitution. He explicitly mentions "Selling songs" as not being prostitution and "listening to songs" not being equivalent to sexual intimacy with a prostitute. The reason he mentions these two things is because they came to his boat and offered him a songbook, and he refused because of the public perception of the immorality. However, after his refusal, he still desired to hear them sing, which leads to him rationalizing that selling songs is not the same as prostitution, and listening to songs isn't the same as engaging in sexual intercourse with a prostitute. He is not saying wholesale that the women are not in any way, shape, or form engaged in prostitution. He is specifically saying that his desire to listen to their songs is not akin to having sex with a prostitute.

这是一只载妓的板船

So he obviously knew the difference and didn't sugarcoat anything

Your very evidence that here uses the same "妓" that earlier you chose not to translate as prostitute, which you are now choosing to translate as prostitute. Meanwhile, everytime I try and find a source to substantiate the claim that Geji didn't engage in prostitution, I just end up finding another source that says they did. An essay from the 1920s from a gentleman who was struggling with his own feelings about women he met due to societal views of them as prostitutes is not a significant enough opinion that it can be represented in the lead, nor does it negate the vast amount of source that say they engaged in sexual activity as part of their profession.

Or, heading farther east, what should we make of the geji, or "song courtesans," of the Song Dynasty of China, whose combination of beguiling music and prostitution seems to match a cultural type found everywhere from medi- eval Europe to early twentieth-century New Orleans

Moving on,

His description is the most direct description of the gejis active on the Qibanzi during the Republic of China period.

His observations about the area can be used, but it shouldn't be something that is presented as a fact in WP:Wikivoice in the lead of the article. The problem that arises is the WP:RSCONTEXT of using what is effectively a mental debate he had with himself over wanting to hear their singing to state "Geji weren't prostitutes". His observations about the decline of Geji and their being banished from teahouses and having to perform on boats is fine, but you cannot use his source to say that Geji weren't prostitutes because he doesn't actually explicitly say that. It's WP:SYNTH to use his essay to do so. Brocade River Poems 10:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Zhu Ziqing said it very clearly, selling songs is not the same as prostitution, these are two professions, some people engage in prostitution does not mean that everyone engages in prostitution. As for "ji", this needs to be understood according to the context. Why did I translate it into gejis and prostitutes? As for the question of the front and back, because in the front, he wrote "歌妓", and later he encountered "妓女", Zhu Ziqing used this word in this way. I have added different views in the entry. In order to coordinate, is there any place to apply for arbitration? Is it okay to write it like this? Many gejis in the Song Dynasty did not sell their art and engage in prostitution at the same time. Chinese ancient gejis were not prostitutes, or sexual relations did not mean prostitution. Some European and American scholars have mentioned this. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I have added different views on the nature of the identity of gejis in the entry. I did not quote Zhu Ziqing's article. So it is okay to write both views. Must say that their profession is prostitution? Is that okay? 清风与明月 (talk) 13:26, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Teachers of the Inner Chambers: Women and Culture in Seventeenth-Century China

Dorothy Ko

Chapter 7 is about the courtesan or the singing girl. So if there is sexual relationship, is it in the form of prostitution, and are they both engaged in prostitution at the same time? This is a question. 清风与明月 (talk) 14:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Timothy James Brook([加]卜正民)，译者:Fangjun(方骏) (2004).“The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(纵乐的困惑：明代的商业与文化)”.Oxford:生活·读书·新知三联书店.ISBN 9787108020062. 262——264 清风与明月 (talk) 14:57, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The book by Brook which you have added here says of courtesans: Passion too had its fashions. Lavishing money on commercial sex was one way to show the world that such expense meant nothing, and the Huizhou merchants gained something of a reputation as big spenders in this regard. But commercial sex could be constructed to display not just wealth but, again, a sense of discrimination by pushing the margins of moral notoriety. No symbolic capital was garnered from patronizing prostitutes, since any male with a little cash could buy female sexual services in any Ming town. Desire needed other guises to participate in the fashion struggle. One of these guises was courtesanship. Briefly in the closing decades of the dynasty, some late-Ming gentry acquired educated women as courtesans outside the institutions of both marriage and concubinage. Courtesanship was made to bear a cultural significa-tion specific to the age. It rewrote the purely sexual relationship of prostitution as a literary, even companionate relationship.

The definition of guise being an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.

The book is saying that high-class men wanted something classier than a common prostitute for the sake of accruing cultural capital. He also writes Highly cultured males could fictionalize their dilemma as tragic men by buying women trained in certain culturally admired ways

Dorothy Ko writes Lu Qingzi, like Xu Yuan, kept company with singing girls, as her poems for "prostitutes" (ji) testified.

the most privileged women by virtue of their pivotal positions in the private lives of the male elite, we can begin to understand how compliance- by legal marriage or sexual services- benefited a small number of women

Again, Ko notes compliace by way of legal marriage or sexual services.

She also says that "singing girls and prostitutes from lower-class houses received only fragments of such elaborate training, but first-class courtesans could vie with Li Yu in literary and artistic accomplishments", which contradicts the prior argument made that Geji aka Singing Girls were intellectualy superior if they received less training than courtesans.

Per Prostitutes and Courtesans in the Confucian Moral Universe of Late Ming China (1550–1644):

According to contemporary Chinese judicial regulations, both prostitutes and courtesans were classified as ‘‘entertainers’’, and, therefore, they had the status of jianmin [mean people], which formally made them ‘‘outcasts’’ in Chinese society.11 In the Ming era, the law recognized only two kinds of person – ‘‘mean’’, or commoner (liang), who was considered ‘‘good’’ or ‘‘virtuous’’ and The top-class courtesan, known by the expression mingji [famous courtesan], usually had a cultured upbringing to prepare her for serving clients.16 Besides her bestowal of sexual favours, she was also expected to indulge with her patrons in the fine arts – playing the zither or chess, or engaging in calligraphy or painting.17 While prized for her beauty and sexual charms,the true function of a courtesan (as opposed to a prostitute) was that of a ‘‘professional hostess’’ who was educated and cultivated in skills such as conversation, knowledge of classical literature, recitation of poetry, dancing, and musical performance

and

elite courtesans generally confined their public appearances to within the entertainment quarters, prostitutes were truly ‘‘women of the street’’. As waiji [common whores], they plied their trade openly in the public domain. In the early evening hours, prostitutes emerged from their living quarters and hung around the doorways of tea houses and drinking places in search of business.2 and Late Ming intellectuals did not consider the plight of courtesans (or prostitutes) as sinful or wicked, but rather as something unfortunate.34 That rich and famous courtesans or poor and obscure prostitutes sold their services and their bodies in exchange for money was pitiful

There is clearly a distinction between a courtesan and a common prostitute, but the fact of the matter remains at the end of the day that courtesans still sold their bodies. Brocade River Poems 21:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Not a third opinion, but...

I would suggest that both parties try to make your arguments more succinct; because I am sitting at my laptop and some of the single arguments are almost taking up literally the entire screen. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The reliable sources represent Geji as courtesans, and say that they performed sexual services as part of their duty. This information should not be removed. That is the entirety of my argument. Brocade River Poems 02:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I have made it very clear. I have not said that gejis do not have sexual relations, nor have I deleted the content about sexual relations. What I have always meant is that gejis sometimes have sexual relations with men, but this kind of sexual relations is not must expressed as prostitution. I also admit that there are indeed gejis who engage in prostitution, but that does not mean that all gejis are prostitution. The profession of gejis is to be entertainers. Even if they have sexual relations, it does not necessarily mean prostitution, and not all of them are high-class prostitutes. This point of view can be explained by many references in the entry. I don't want to discuss this with this person anymore. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The profession of gejis in ancient China is the same as that of geishas in Japan and tawaifs in India. For example, the Wikipedia of Japanese geishas also says that some geishas engage in prostitution, but not all of them do. The Wikipedia of tawaifs in India also explains that they are sometimes mistresses of men, but not all of them engage in prostitution. Similarly, the sexual relationships of gejis in ancient China were not all for the purpose of prostitution, so why must they be equated with prostitution? This person now believes that the profession of gejis is essentially a prostitution profession, and that they sell their bodies for prostitution. This view is obviously very biased. I certainly will not agree to add "gejis are essentially prostitution" to the Wikipedia entry. It's really not because I don't want to accept other people's opinions, but because this understanding is biased. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The names of singing and dancing venues in ancient China include yuefu(乐府), jiaofang(教坊), goulanwashe(勾栏瓦舍),[102]gelou(歌楼),[103] qinglou(青楼)[Label 2] and wuxie(舞榭).[104] Although the meanings of these singing and dancing venues have changed in different dynasties, but cannot equate all singing and dancing venues with brothels or places of prostitution.[Label 1]Starting from the Tang Dynasty, there was a custom among gejis that those who had a good relationship would become sworn sisters and were called "incense brothers(香火兄弟)" and "handkerchief sisters(手帕姐妹)".[Label 3]Not all gejis married nobles as concubines.Some gejis chose to marry musicians, and after marrying musicians, they usually retired from the profession and trained their children in artistic skills. Some gejis began teaching other women skills during their careers. Some gejis eventually became teachers who taught girls singing and dancing.Due to the low status of gejis, some were forced to lose their virginity, and some became men's mistresses involuntarily. This kind of sexual exploitation is not necessarily equivalent to prostitution.Some gejis also engaged in prostitution, such as Sha Cai in the Ming Dynasty, who was a geji and a prostitute at the same time and eventually contracted syphilis.[105][106]But this is a personal behavior and does not mean that all gejis are prostitution.[107]In addition, some pimps run brothel businesses in the name of gejis. The girls sing during the day and engage in prostitution at night. They are usually understood as prostitutes. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The names of singing and dancing venues in ancient China include yuefu(乐府), jiaofang(教坊), goulanwashe(勾栏瓦舍),[102]gelou(歌楼),[103] qinglou(青楼)[Label 2] and wuxie(舞榭).[104] Although the meanings of these singing and dancing venues have changed in different dynasties, but cannot equate all singing and dancing venues with brothels or places of prostitution.[Label 1]Starting from the Tang Dynasty, there was a custom among gejis that those who had a good relationship would become sworn sisters and were called "incense brothers(香火兄弟)" and "handkerchief sisters(手帕姐妹)".[Label 3]Not all gejis married nobles as concubines.Some gejis chose to marry musicians, and after marrying musicians, they usually retired from the profession and trained their children in artistic skills. Some gejis began teaching other women skills during their careers. Some gejis eventually became teachers who taught girls singing and dancing.Due to the low status of gejis, some were forced to lose their virginity, and some became men's mistresses involuntarily. This kind of sexual exploitation is not necessarily equivalent to prostitution.Some gejis also engaged in prostitution, such as Sha Cai in the Ming Dynasty, who was a geji and a prostitute at the same time and eventually contracted syphilis.[105][106]But this is a personal behavior and does not mean that all gejis are prostitution.[107]In addition, some pimps run brothel businesses in the name of gejis. The girls sing during the day and engage in prostitution at night. They are usually understood as prostitutes.

I think the above statement is enough. There is no need to add the statement that the essence of gejis is prostitution, they are high-class prostitutes, and their profession is to prostitution for the rich on Wikipedia. I think what I said is very clear. So, I think for this statement, can go to the Wikipedia of Chinese prostitution, etc., instead of the Wikipedia of gejis. The same principle can be referred to the Wikipedia of geisha and tawaif. 清风与明月 (talk) 13:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Here is everything I want to say about Geji's sexual issues.

I think I have already take the middle context and edited it. I have already written that providing sexual services is part of the ancient Chinese geji profession. I don't understand why it was deleted, and I have provided available references.

Here I will talk about my edit. At the same time, not all geji are prostitution. Some people engage in prostitution does not mean that all people engage in prostitution. I don't think this is whitewashing. On the contrary, it is biased to label this group of female entertainers in history as necessarily engaging in prostitution and that they are all engaged in prostitution.

It is obviously not true to say that all Western scholars believe that gejis are prostitution women, that they are entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers. Because some Western reference materials I read wrote that there are sexual relationships, but they did not say that sex must be defined as prostitution. If take it out of context and think that all Western scholars say that they are prostitution, I don’t think it is appropriate.

They were professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with patrons.Nevertheless, ancient chinese gejis were more famous for their outstanding musical and literary talents than their sexual services.(I also kept the description of them having sex with men, and added that they were more famous for their musical and literary talents than their sexual services. This is also based on reference materials and is the view of Western scholar.https://web.archive.org/web/20240106045528/http://people.hws.edu/blanchard/ASN304/syllabus10.html The scholar said:“Look up the word "courtesan" in a dictionary, say Merriam-Webster's tenth edition, and one finds the following definition: "a prostitute with a courtly, wealthy, or upper-class clientele." Historically, however, the courtesans of China or Japan have been women whose appeal lay primarily in their surpassing musical and literary cultivation, not their sexual services. The demimonde of the elite Chinese "singing girl" or the Japanese geisha across the centuries.”)

Gejis have engaged in sexual activity with patrons,the sexual relationship between a geji and her patron sometimes was a cohabitation relationship.(I also kept the description of sex. The reference I cited here is from a Chinese scholarhttps://www.zjujournals.com/soc/CN/abstract/abstract8785.shtml. This is about Liu Rushi and Chen Zilong, saying that they lived together because they were in love, not because of prostitution. My description is that sometimes gejis lived together, and I don't think I have sugarcoated anything, because it is true that not everything is prostitution.)

Although sexual services were one of the services provided by a geji, her identity was that of an entertainer.(I even kept the description of sexual services. But combined with what I said before and after, they are really not essentially prostitution. It is also a fact that some people engage in prostitution, but not everyone does. So I don't think it is necessary to describe them as entertainers and prostitutes/sex workers here.New Era Chinese-English Dictionary, English definition: geji or singing girl is a female singer and dancer.https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=6VEZAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Geji+singing%22&redir_esc=y)

作者:Timothy James Brook([加]卜正民)，译者:Fangjun(方骏) (2004).“The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China(纵乐的困惑：明代的商业与文化)”.Oxford:生活·读书·新知三联书店.ISBN 9787108020062.  262—264)This is also a book by a Western scholar. He did not define geji's sex must as prostitution. This book also has an English version, and it seems to use "geisha" to describe geji.Here, it is said that the geji/geisha exist outside the marriage and concubinage system. These women are well-educated. The gejis are a manifestation of a specific cultural meaning in history. The geji profession reshapes the purely sexual relationship of prostitutes into a cultural relationship, or even a like-minded interaction. When men pursue the confidantes of the talented scholars and beautiful women in romantic stories, but cannot find them in the arranged marriages and money marriages in reality, the geji/geisha appear.So, what I said is that they should not be defined as necessarily engaging in prostitution. This is appropriate. Gejis can be a cultural relationship, or even a relationship established by like-minded people. So their professional nature should not be defined as prostitution.)

Because I had not finished editing, it was deleted. That's what I want to say. I deny the accusation that I edited maliciously and added useless references. The content I added all has references, which are also usable, and some are even research by Western scholars. 清风与明月 (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Two responses. A syllabus is a dubious source for inclusion on Wikipedia, to my understanding. Furthermore, it says lay primarily in their surpassing musical and literary cultivation, not their sexual services which in no way implies that the ancient Chinese courtesans didn't engage in sexual services, but that their musical and literary talent was their primary appeal. Secondly, re: https://www.zjujournals.com/soc/CN/abstract/abstract8785.shtml, as I stated previously, the abstract for this article states the love between Chen Zilong , a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi , a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent.

Believe it or not, courtesans and prostitutes and the like can fall in love and get married. They aren't mutually exclusionary criteria. Brocade River Poems 01:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the statement on sexual issues, I am not responding to a specific person, but I am here to popularize science

。 清风与明月 (talk) 06:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

What I proposed is that I admit that they have sex, and I have not denied it. The Chinese translation of this book by a Western scholar is what I said. He did not say that sex exists must for prostitution. The Chinese scholar did not say that Liu Rushi was a prostitute, let alone that she was prostitution. I don't understand, what is the nature of the geji profession? What is the fact that the geji profession cannot be changed no matter what? What is it that they are under a guise? What is whitewashing and beautification? What is it that sex is prostitution no matter what? 清风与明月 (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

From my perspective, what's wrong with having sex? The fact is that it does not exist for the purpose of prostitution. The profession of a geji is a female singer and dancer, and some are poets. Sex does not necessarily exist for prostitution, and it is secondary. This is the same as Japanese geishas and Indian tawaifs. Sexual relations can even be "monogamous". So I don't think it's reasonable to write in the text that "prostitution is part of the profession of a geji", "the profession of a geji is to sell art and prostitution at the same time", "the essence of a geji is prostitution, but she serves rich men, they are doing prostitution under the guise of serving rich men, and even men whitewash them". At the same time, the geji entry has been broadly classified into the Chinese prostitution page below, just like the Indian tawaif, it has been classified in a broad sense, but the text does explain that sexual issues are not necessarily prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

In ancient China, gejis could not get married during their profession and could only get married after leaving their profession. They had their own lifestyle and they also had the ceremony of sworn sisterhood. I don't think they should be defined as essentially prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 06:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The Chinese scholar did not say that Liu Rushi was a prostitute, let alone that she was prostitution.

If you download the PDF, the Abstract quite literally says The Collection Jianglijian and the Love between Chen Zilong and Liu Rushi LI Yue-shen Department of International Culture Studies, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310027, China) Abstract: Many historical facts were clarified thanks to the scholar Chen Yinke who did a detailed textual research in his Anecdotal Biography of Liu Rushi on the love between Chen Zilong, a noted writer in the late Ming Dynasty and Liu Rushi, a prostitute noted for her beauty and literary talent. But it is necessary to make some supplements and corrections regarding the love between Chen and Liu, due to an increase in related material these years. Brocade River Poems 23:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• I'll reiterate my earlier comments:

There are several issues here:

1. Following the interwiki links, Gējì (歌妓、歌伎、歌姬) links to the Chinese zh:藝妓 (泛稱) (Geisha) which redirects to zh:交際花 (courtesan). Much of the content of the English article Gējì has been translated from the Chinese article zh:歌女 (Song Girl), which links back to the English Sing-song girls. There is obviously confusion over terms which has led to issues with the article.
2. Even prior to 清风与明月's involvement the article was a mess.
3. 清风与明月 seems to be striving to bring the article inline with zh:歌女 (Song Girl), however as the two article are not a direct match this is inappropriate.
4. Some content is unreferenced. Where content is referenced, the referencing is poor, some fails verification, others added more recently are to obscure offline sources which cannot be verified.

IMHO the content of articles on the Chinese Wikipedia should be ignored as there is no article that is a direct match to Gējì.

Although the article is close to the tipping point of WP:TNT, I would suggest WP:ATD-E is appropriate here, i.e. Reducing to stub a that is fully verified by reliable sources. --John B123 (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

1. I mentioned earlier that Sing song girl was the name for Chinese sex workers at the time, not the real translation of singing girl. Sing song girl is a modern term. Refer to https://m.thepaper.cn/yidian_promDetail.jsp?contid=9101122&from=yidian, which is not the real translation of singing girl or geji. Moreover, when this entry was still called "Yiji", it was not corresponding. This is a problem of the difference between Chinese and English Wikipedia, not my problem. This problem existed before I came. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:50, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。 清风与明月 (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。2. Before I came, this entry was called "Yiji". The original entry only had a few sentences and even quoted the earliest personal blog. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。3. I am trying to improve the entry, but because I have limited time, it is impossible to improve it overnight. So I plan to delete the content appropriately, adjust the grammar, and add references after the entry can be edited. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。4. I don't think this entry ,should be fully restored to the original entry like "Yiji". 清风与明月 (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, due to the word count, I can't send it out all at once and can only send it out in several times. 清风与明月 (talk) 08:57, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Is this entry editable now? How should it be edited, should it be defined as prostitution itself? Or is the current version of the page description enough? 清风与明月 (talk) 09:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting the original version be restored, I'm suggesting that the article is cut back to the content that can be verified by reliable sources, not personal interpretation of sources. As Gējì and zh:歌女 (Song Girl) are not direct matches then copying content from the Chinese article is not appropriate. --John B123 (talk) 09:12, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I did not plagiarize the articles in Chinese Wikipedia. Most of the contents in English Wikipedia are not available in Chinese Wikipedia. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The mismatch is a historical problem. When the entry is "Yiji", the entry also is not corresponding. Then, since there are too few studies on ancient Chinese geji in English, I can only find Chinese reference materials, and the content is in the Chinese articles. Only when I really can't find the content, I can only quote the ancient Chinese text and further translate the content. 清风与明月 (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

There are English sources available as mentioned above. English references, when available, are preferred on the English Wikipedia. The problem with translating Chinese sources is that mistranslation is possible. --John B123 (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

OK. When can we end the discussion and edit it? I thought it was over. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I just want to improve this entry as soon as possible. If I really can't do it, I can write that prostitution is part of their profession... because the other party obviously insists on this point of view, and if Idon't accept it, then there may never be any results... 清风与明月 (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

because the other party obviously insists on this point of view, and if Idon't accept it, then there may never be any results Will you stop? Never once have I added the word prostitute to the article, you have, in your constant attempts to insert into the discussion that "THEY WEREN'T PROSTITUTES". This is precisely why this is a WP:CIR issue becasuse you do not seem to fully understand that the words professional entertainers who sometimes engaged in sexual activity with clients do not mean "All Geji are prostitutes all the time". The reliable sources say that Geji SOMETIMES engaged in sexual activity with their clients (which, by the by, is synonymous with patron).

I do not know how to make you understand that the article can only represent what the reliable sources say.

Sometimes, definition, adverb occasionally, rather than all of the time.. Not once did I write "Geji always engaged in sexual activity with their clients" or "Geji are all prostitutes". You are failing to understand that the problem is you are citing insufficient sources or using no sources at all or misrepresenting what the sources say to definitively state "most geji don't engage in prostitution" when none of the sources actually said that.

This isn't an issue of "My point of view is Geji are all prostitutes" and your point of view is "Geji aren't all prostitutes", the problem is you are making the article say things which the sources do not verify.

Per WP:VERIFIABILITY All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.

And A source "directly supports" a given piece of material if the information is present explicitly in the source, so that using this source to support the material is not a violation of Wikipedia:No original research.

And Once an editor has provided any source they believe, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material must articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia (e.g. why the source is unreliable; the source does not support the claim; undue emphasis; unencyclopedic content; etc.)

I told you why the sources are insufficient, why the sources did not support the claim, and why you cannot make the totally unnecessary claim that "many were not prostitutes" when the sources do not say that. It is WP:OR to infer from a source about Liu Rushi cohabitating with someone that Geji did not engage in sex work, or were not prostitutes, when the source doesn't say that. You cannot take an anecdotal incident of a single person studied in a source and extrapolate it to more than the subject being discussed. You cannot take some scholar's personal musings about prostitution in an essay about his experiences and use it to declare they didn't engage in sex work. It's not how Wikipedia works, and this has already been explained to you. Brocade River Poems 04:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree to revise and improve the entry based on the current one, but I do not agree to delete the entry entirely. Just give me a little time and I will improve and standardize the entry. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Or is there anyone who knows a lot about sexology and can help me find professional sexology content? I will be responsible for improving the artistic content. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:03, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

OK. When can we end the discussion and edit it? When the discussion comes to its natural end. You have asked for further opinions on the Wikiproject today, you need to give other editors time to respond. Having asked for other opinions its normal to wait at least a week for other editors to respond. --John B123 (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you, thank you for telling me. If it is really impossible, I agree to write that they are all prostitution women. Even if everyone in the world thinks that they are definitely prostitution, and everyone thinks that they are performers and sex workers, I don’t care. Because I think that people who really understand them will respect them mentally, instead of labeling a group of people as prostitution womens. Now I just hope to edit the art section so that their art can be known. I believe that the innocent will be innocent, even if everyone regards them as prostitution womens. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I saw the other party's reply. He said he wanted to delete the entry. He said before that he wanted to restore the original content, the "Yiji" rough entry. If that's the case, I can't agree. I don't suggest deleting the current content either, because I have already said I will sort it out, but now Wikipedia doesn't give me a chance at all, because now I can't edit the entry, and I face the fear that this entry or most of the content will be deleted at any time. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:39, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I have asked you politely to stop misgendering me once already. See WP:EDPRONOUNS. Brocade River Poems 18:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I admit that some of the references I cited are not authoritative enough, but I also said that they will be improved gradually, which I had already said before the other party came. And the other party said that everyone said there were problems with the content. However, the previous people only mentioned grammatical problems, not the content, and some people even passed by to help improve the grammar and archive available references, and no one insisted on saying that all these girls were prostitution. 清风与明月 (talk) 20:47, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Let's talk about it, the original "Yiji" entry. It doesn't say that their sex must be prostitution, nor does it say that they and men must be whitewashing prostitution.

They were respected and renowned for their art and education in the classics,[4] and were hired to perform to both male and female clients, as well as employed by the state.[1] Though yiji could in individual cases choose to sell sexual favors to a client, this was not a part of her profession as a yiji, but a parallel favor outside of their profession as a yiji and regarded as separated from it.[1][2]https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=G%C4%93j%C3%AC&oldid=1148676996 This is the original version. There is even this paragraph, so I don't think it is true that Western scholars and Westerners know that they are expensive prostitutes. In other words, everyone thinks that they are prostitution womens，then this definition is fine, but is it really necessary to delete all the content about their art, clothing, and the development of various dynasties? I think we should improve the grammar and find more appropriate references, rather than just delete it.These references are also from Western scholars, corresponding to this paragraph. So Western scholars all know that they are prostitution womens, which is obviously not the case. I now agree to compromise and define them as prostitution womens, but I really think that other parts should be improved and supplemented with references, rather than directly deleted. 清风与明月 (talk) 21:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

That's it. In addition to prostitution, there are different dynasties, clothing and makeup, art and culture. Now I will improve it and find better reference materials. I don't think these should be deleted from this entry. 清风与明月 (talk) 21:07, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Chinese references, I admit that some Chinese references are not authoritative, so I also said that I would find more reliable references after resuming editing. However, some of the references I cited were articles published on regular Chinese websites, and some even had authors. I don’t think all Chinese references should be deleted. As for ancient Chinese texts, I also said that I would gradually translate them, so there is no need to delete them all. 清风与明月 (talk) 23:27, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not that I don't want to cite English references. I also quote English references and Western scholars when I edit. It's just that there are not many people studying this, and many things are not in English references, such as clothing. No one studies this. 清风与明月 (talk) 23:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

。Can apply for a professional to help edit it now? Or is there any other way to solve this problem? 清风与明月 (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

You have asked at two different Wikiprojects for people to look at this discussion, please be patient and see if any other editors make comment. John B123 (talk) 19:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The gejis in ancient China were indeed not expensive prostitutes/sex workers. Moreover, the reference materials cited even emphasize the sexual performance of performing arts (the performance of gejis is not a sexual performance) twice in the same place, which is too intense. Moreover, Yang Wan's entry is not consistent with the facts. I also want to edit this entry. After seeing these contents, different cultural circles and different expressions cannot be generalized. Many of them are indeed not prostitutes/sex workers. In addition, the entries of geisha, tawaif, and qiyan are all well introduced at the beginning, and the explanation of sex is placed in the main text. Why must the Chinese geji add a sentence that causes misunderstanding at the very beginning? Or mention the so-called reference materials of sexual performance twice in one place at the same time?I hope this entry can be edited and improved by Chinese people who truly understand Chinese and Chinese culture. 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)— 年轻的古惑仔 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

When can this entry be edited? Do want to keep dragging it out forever? In China today, prostitution is illegal, but geji can be promoted in Chinese media, and it is considered part of traditional Chinese culture. Just because someone messed with it, this entry can't be edited forever? 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 05:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This is China's official media, which emphasizes that geji are not prostitutes. Some geji are even artists, and believe that calling geji prostitutes is a stigma. So, does this constitute discrimination against China and Chinese women to some extent?In today's China, prostitution is illegal. China prohibits prostitution by law, but geji can be promoted in official media, and the official also emphasizes this point, positioning geji as entertainers, not prostitution.https://epaper.sqrb.com.cn/old/sqrb/html/2008-06/15/content_13899.htm 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 05:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

In China, prostitution and purchasing prostitution services are illegal. They are crimes in China and punishable by imprisonment. It’s even illegal to promote prostitution in China.

https://m.thepaper.cn/kuaibao_detail.jsp?contid=2653841&from=kuaibao

http://www.fakuyun.com/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=4&id=3070

https://www.chinanews.com.cn/sh/shipin/cns-d/2021/10-21/news904719.shtml

But China's CCTV can openly talk about geji and turn geji culture into a TV lecture.Even in lectures involving law, people can talk about geji openly.

https://tv.cctv.com/2011/09/06/VIDEZfNAYcVBzklRoL5BJOBt110906.shtml

https://tv.cctv.com/2012/03/06/VIDELyBIG86mUKPfNBVY76vR120306.shtml

https://tv.cctv.cn/2023/10/25/VIDErAvpnmV45bLS3AETpdIv231025.shtml

In China, outstanding geji may even have statues erected and placed in parks alongside great male figures in history.All of this is open and unabashed.

https://www.cnr.cn/sxpd/jd/20230805/t20230805_526365158.shtml

http://www.haqbszb.cn/Article/index/aid/4092397.html

The beauties who won the first, second and third place titles of the 52nd MISS ALL NATIONS World Finals and 12 individual awards, put on the costumes of the ancient Chinese "Eight Beauties of Qinhuai", walked into the Jiangsu Baifengtang Art Museum, and collaborated with the famous artist Wang Liping to create the Chinese painting "Phoenix Dancing in the Sun" to experience Chinese culture.

In this event, women from Europe, America and other countries dressed up as Chinese geji, including the famous geji "Eight Beauties of Qinhuai", and experienced Chinese culture together with the Chinese people.

https://ijs.ifeng.com/6319919/news.shtml?&back&backimgnum=1

Therefore, the importance and position of geji in China cannot be ignored. Geji is considered a part of Chinese culture, and even activities with foreigners involve geji culture. 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 06:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This entry is wrong, and people don't even know that 歌妓 or 歌伎 is pronounced differently from 歌姬. 歌妓 or 歌伎 is pronounced (gējì), and 歌姬 is pronounced (gējī). Can prohibiting anyone from editing solve the error? 年轻的古惑仔 (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

。I hope to give me a month to improve this entry. After I have improved it, we can discuss what needs to be modified. I will improve the grammar and reference materials. 清风与明月 (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

。 清风与明月 (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

。胡介祉《茨村咏史新乐府》：“崇祯辛巳年，田贵妃父宏遇进香普陀，道过金阊，渔猎声妓，遂挟沅以归。”Tian Hongyu had robbing geji, so it is impossible to judge whether Yang Wan was eloping. This is not love, nor is it prostitution.Moreover, Tian Hongyu only let Yang Wan be an art teacher to teach other girls. Yang Wan was also a teacher. This is mentioned in the Chinese reference materials.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html

As for the entry about Yang Wan(Geji), I did not edit it maliciously. I object to the accusation, and this entry does contain errors. In the historical records, it does not say that Yang Wan found many lovers after getting married while she had a husband. This Chinese reference is an official Chinese news website, and it was written by a reporter. It said that it was just a social activity, and it did not say that she found many lovers after getting married.Moreover, Yang Wan only started looking for a lover after her husband's death, and she did not find many lovers after getting married.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html

Moreover, Yang Wan and Wang Wei(Geji) are not lesbians (I don't mean to discriminate, I'm just stating the facts). The content of this entry is wrong from the beginning. Yang Wan and Wang Wei are good friends. This is the culture of ancient Chinese geji. Like-minded geji will become sworn sisters. They are not lesbians (I don't mean to discriminate, I'm just stating the culture of ancient Chinese geji).https://new.qq.com/rain/a/20201021A043X000

I didn't need to lie to anyone. I changed the article because I really felt that the article about Yang Wan didn't match the facts and was too disgusting (not the misconception that she was a lesbian, but the slander that she had many lovers after marriage and had a lover relationship with Tian Hongyu). I didn't need to whitewash anything. So I object to the accusation against me. 清风与明月 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I’m not really that knowledgeable on this topic but it seems to me that there must be some kind of miscommunication going on here. @BrocadeRiverPoems is not advocating for the article to include the word “prostitution” or has made the claim that “all” the geji were prostitutes which seems to be one of your main contentions. They are just saying(I should probably take the time to ask, what are your pronouns BRP?) that you need reliable sources to back up any major claims you’ve made. In this case, the claim that “many were not prostitutes” should be backed by reliable sources. Just to clarify, and this is really important, no one is saying that they even disagree with this viewpoint. That’s not what they’re concerned about. It’s not about what one thinks or even knows is correct because that doesn’t matter here, see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. This statement your pushing for must be sourced. In fact BRP has already mentioned that they are not concerned with whether that is true or not.

@清风与明月 This is the one thing you should recognize before responding. In fact, I don’t think this conversation can move forward if you don’t understand the fundamental point that nobody is arguing against the position that “many geji weren’t prostitutes”, which you haven’t yet realized. The other editors just want you to confirm this with reliable sources.

I hope I was able to condense their points for you. This was already explained by them but I thought perhaps you would benefit from a summary of their concerns. The involved users here can feel free to correct me on any matter where I may have misinterpreted their words. Someguywhosbored (talk) 22:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

(I should probably take the time to ask, what are your pronouns BRP?) She/They is fine. And yes, my point has been the entire time that they cannot make unsubstantiated claims, nor can they remove sourced claims with claims that are supported by unencyclopedic sources. Brocade River Poems 23:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This Chinese reference is an official Chinese news website, and it was written by a reporter. It said that it was just a social activity, and it did not say that she found many lovers after getting married.Moreover, Yang Wan only started looking for a lover after her husband's death, and she did not find many lovers after getting married.https://www.yangtse.com/zncontent/774163.html

This isn't a reliable source. The English Wikipedia favors sources in English for verifibility. Moreover, a book published by academic scholars trumps a news article written by a reporter. The source in English said "lovers", likewise to the other point, the academically published source said "eloped" not abducted. Moreover, that source you linked says 茅元仪死后，随崇祯宠妃田贵妃的父亲田弘遇到北京，后来李自成攻陷北京，杨宛逃回南京，死于强盗之手。, which translates to After Mao Yuan Yi's death, she accompanied Tian Hong Yu, the father of Chongzhen's favorite concubine Tian Guifei, to Beijing. Later, when Li Zicheng sacked Beijing, Yang Wan fled back to Nanjing and died at the hands of robbers. The word used is 随 which does not, according to the dictionary, mean abducted.

Moreover, Yang Wan and Wang Wei(Geji) are not lesbians I never said they were.

https://new.qq.com/rain/a/20201021A043X000

Again, this is not a reliable source.

I changed the article because I really felt that the article about Yang Wan didn't match the facts and was too disgusting (not the misconception that she was a lesbian, but the slander that she had many lovers after marriage and had a lover relationship with Tian Hongyu). I didn't need to whitewash anything. So I object to the accusation against me.

You just admitted that you changed it because WP:IDONTLIKEIT, While some editors may dislike certain kinds of information, that alone isn't enough for something to be deleted. Brocade River Poems 23:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Here let me try this, with some machine assistance.

我不是说她们是妓女，我是说你需要用可靠的消息来源来支持你的说法。在评估资料来源方面，你失败了。你使用的资料来源不可靠。这就是问题所在。您不明白这一点。这样就很难达成共识。编辑英文维基百科需要一定的英语水平。这样的误解于事无补。必须使用翻译器也于事无补。需要用英语交流，但你不能正确理解。问题大了。不是说恶意，而是说意外伤害。缺乏对英语的理解。如果听不懂，一不小心就会无谓地争吵，增加错误，无法正确达成共识。问题不在于内容，而在于无意的错误行为。造成太多工作。我从没说过歌妓都是妓女。“Sometimes "是指偶尔。 歌妓是高级，偶尔提供性服务。这是学者的说法。我们只能代表学者的观点。必须提供高质量的资料来支持声明。 中文或英文。必须是高质量的。 古代资料不太好。太古老。个人观点也不好。来源必须明确支持信息，而不是推断。 Brocade River Poems (She/They) 03:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Article Name?

Should the name of the article really be Geji? Would Mingji(名妓) perhaps be more appropriate in terms of WP:NOTABILITY? I've seen Mingji used more often in sources than Geji, even the Chinese journal article that was provided for the basis of them not being prostitutes above refers to Liu Rushi in Chinese as Mingji. Likewise, this source says but prostitutes of the highest rank, the mingji, 名妓 celebrated prostitutes, or courtesans. Like the many-talented gentlewomen, mingji were erudite, talented, and artistic. While guixiu were educated, respectable women in society, mingji were the guixiu's fallen counterpart. While guixiu were women for whom activities outside the household were usually discouraged, courtesans, on the other hand, because of their dealings with rich merchants and famous literati, were professional women who led public lives. Unlike lower-class prostitutes, mingji had the opportunities for literary pursuits such as poetry, dance, music, painting, calligraphy, opera singing, and performing. Although most courtesans were trained to play the pipa 琵琶 and the zheng 筝, some were accomplished on the qin, and so referred to as qinji-琴妓 qin prostitutes.

Brocade River Poems 23:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I hope to give me a month to improve this entry.

I hope to give me a month to improve this entry. After I have improved it, we can discuss what needs to be modified. I will improve the grammar and reference materials. 清风与明月 (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)