Talk:Frog Detective (disambiguation)

Redirections, disambiguation, etc

Hi all!

Tagging @NmWTfs85lXusaybq, @Amakuru, @Yoshiman6464, @TheAwesomeHwyh.

Made a stub for the series this weekend, on Frog Detective, to replace the old redirection to the first game that dated from when there was only one game of the series yet released. After that, there have been a series of successive edits and moves and redirects and page swaps that was a little hard to follow and now we are in a state where Frog Detective redirects to the first game, and Frog Detective (disambiguation) is a disambiguation page with a highlight on the first game as “Frog Detective” for short. So I thought we could have a chat to understand each other instead of all these contradictory edits :)

So: we have a series (and eponymous character) that has three games. The series is called Frog Detective (as is, of course, the main character). I don’t think I understand why should Frog Detective redirect to the first game (which has never been called “Frog Detective” on its own but “The Haunted Island”, with the “a Frog Detective Game” suffix). I’m also not sure why Frog Detective (disambiguation) is highlighting the first game as simply “Frog Detective” and the other games as secondary.

This is a series, and each episode has its title. Since its release in 2018, the first game has been titled “The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game” and the second episode was announced in-game. So it’s not at all a case where the first game is eponymous with the series and the sequels are later additions, as it happens sometimes, but just a simple series with three episodes.

Let me know what you think!

ps. Now that there is even a 3-in-1 release, we could almost call it one episodic game! (but I won’t make it more complicated) ~ nicolas (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Nclm, as far as I can tell we're simply back at the status quo from before the recent flurry of activity, with the base Frog Detective name as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to the first game. Judging by page views, that seems to be the correct situation. More readers will be looking for the first game than the other two combined.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru: That's what I was thinking when I redirected Frog Detective to the first game. I first became aware of the game when the trilogy was announced for the Switch. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 22:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply!

Isn’t the page views simply because “Frog Detective” was indeed redirecting to the first game, and in general the first game article have been made more central? (while the game itself isn’t in the series) – If the redirection was set differently, then the page views will change over time.

I’m not sure people looking for “Frog Detective” in general are looking for one particular game of the finished series? Especially now as the games are sold as a complete trilogy? For some other random examples, A Series of Unfortunate Events (series) doesn’t direct to The Bad Beginning (first in the series), even homonyms such as The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (series) doesn’t redirect to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (novel) (first in the series).

As for the disambiguation page, this is the content currently:

Frog Detective is a 2018 comedy adventure video game.
Frog Detective may also refer to:

• Frog Detective 2: The Case of the Invisible Wizard
• Frog Detective 3: Corruption at Cowboy County

But the first game isn’t called “Frog Detective” and has never been, unsure why this treatment? Shouldn’t it be at least:

Frog Detective may refer to:

• The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game
• Frog Detective 2: The Case of the Invisible Wizard
• Frog Detective 3: Corruption at Cowboy County

My original stub had a little intro like that:

Frog Detective can refer both to a comedy adventure video game series as well as to the title character in that series (a frog who works as a detective). The following titles are part of Frog Detective and feature the character:

1. The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game
2. Frog Detective 2: The Case of the Invisible Wizard
3. Frog Detective 3: Corruption at Cowboy County

• Frog Detective: The Entire Mystery (omnibus edition of the trilogy)

Not sure the wording and formatting is right, but it felt a little more informative and useful? ~ nicolas (talk) 22:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

When there's a primary topic, the format of the top of the dab page should follow MOS:DABPRIMARY. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I read this, I guess I simply don’t understand why one third of the series is considered the primary topic and not the rest. It is also incorrect to refer to the first game as “Frog Detective” as it isn’t the title of the game and never been. ~ nicolas (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

To make it clearer: “Frog Detective is a 2018 comedy adventure video game.” is simply not a sentence that is true at all, so we cannot have this written, there is no game titled “Frog Detective” ever released. It’s either “The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game is a 2018 comedy adventure video game.” or “Frog Detective is a comedy adventure video game series comprised of three games.” ~ nicolas (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

From Amakuru's comment, The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game is primary with respect to usage per WP:PT1. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 00:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, yes I had seen and read this. As I said before, to me the usage here might be biased because all these years, “Frog Detective” was indeed redirecting to “The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game”. If you make a sign “forbidden right turn” and then do some traffic analysis and see that most people are going left, it does not mean that left is a desire path. For instance, the peak recently is because of the release of the 3-in-1 game. People were looking for “Frog Detective” (and buying the three games together), not for “The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game” particularly.

It’s also natural that more people would first visit the page of the first game anyway if we don’t allow for a page for the series, and not make it to other games. That does not make the other episodes more secondary. I don’t see why that is different, to take the most mainstream example I can think of, to Harry Potter not redirecting to Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone?

Also as I was saying earlier, “Frog Detective is a 2018 comedy adventure video game.” isn’t true. That is simply not the title of the game and never been. We should at least make it “The Haunted Island, a Frog Detective Game is a 2018 comedy adventure video game.” so we avoid writing something untrue in the encyclopedia. To continue with the other example, that would be writing “Harry Potter is a 1997 children’s novel”. That was maybe informally true for a year before the release of another opus.

Anyway, this is probably the last try to ask for explanations and understanding, I’m not going to spend more energy on a silly frog (as much as I love it!), but I really do think that the current state is illogical, confusing and unexpected. I don’t think anyone think of a series as being the first in the series, with some secondary sequels, especially in case were the work was planned as a series from the start.

~ nicolas (talk) 06:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's fine for me to link directly to the target of the redirect in this case. As for Harry Potter, it's already an independent article for the novel series, as opposed to a disambiguation page which Frog Detective currently is. It might be a primary topic only if a detailed article about the series exists. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 13:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this was kind of my thought too. If I understand correctly @Nclm:, you created the text here: [1] with a view to it being a summary of the series at all. It doesn't really look like that the way it was formulated though, it was styled as a simple disambiguation between the three games - it even had the footer identifying itself as a disambiguation page. To me that's not particularly useful for readers, and we'd rather maintain the status quo of redirecting them to the most-sought-after first game. However, if you want to create a real article for the whole series - complete with sections, references, infobox, all the usual paraphanalia, then I probably wouldn't object to putting that at the basename Frog Detective. Why don't you create such an article in draft space, and then we can have a look at it when that's done? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)