Talk:Frisia/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

This article needs a map. -Branddobbe 01:16, 23 June 2004 (UTC)

I found a great map here. I have emailed the webmaster. --Hottentot 4:52 PM, 16 July 2005 (Not UTC)

Kennemerland

Kennemerland didn't belong to West Friesland between 1100 and 1800. Kennemerland is the region where the dynasty of Holland came from. The monastery of Egmont was there and the city of Alkmaar. West Friesland was the swampland and the islands east of the dunes of Kennemerland. The map in the link is incorrect.--Daanschr 12:57, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm euh Kennemerland was not where dynasty came from but where it became in to be. But the areas of Egmond en Alkmaar where then stil West Frisia. Kennemerland layed a bit more south then then the now a days region of Kennemerland, But when the wars start with Holland, Alkmaar en Egmond area became the region of Rekere, named after the former rivier that runs through the area. Alkmaar lays on the border of Rekere and Westflinge. Later on Egmond became more or less voluntay a area of Holland, while the area of Alkmaar was conqoured. During the wars until 1297 Alkmaar was sometimes in the hands of West Friesland, but for the most parts of Holland, and it falls than under the region Kennemerland. After the wars the area was first only was fellt under the region of Holland, later both and when Holland and West Friesland became provincie, it fell more or less under region West Friesland, or some say ironcly West Friesland fell more or less under the city of Alkmaar and the monastery of Egmond, which more lissening to region of Holland and monastery of Haarlem... :-) Dolfy 15:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

You are more an expert then me. I was wary because many people on Wikipedia don't know much about the subject they wright about. This time i am one of those people.--Daanschr 14:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Groningen

The claim that the dialects in Groningen are rather Saxon than Frisian, is not correct. Especially not for the northern part of Groningen (both North-west and North-east). In the Netherlands \, frisian is symbolized with west-frisian in the frovince Fryslan, which might be a reason speakers of dialect simular to West Frisian dont want to call their dialec/language frisian. however the dialects spoken in the villages around the northern parts of Groningen is much more simular to East Frisian than Dutch or German Dialects (Saxon) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.232.184 (talk • contribs) 04:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The dialects in Groningen are Lowsaxon and not Frisian, this goes also the dialects of northern parts (people living there understand German Platdüütsch better then they understand Frisian). If you don't believe this please go and argue about it on the Low German article. Krastain 12:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Nationalism??

Excuse me :), I am not a nationalist and I please not to be spoken to like that, since I oppered the idea about merging. Thank you. Bùt, Friesland is Dutch and Frisia is English, that is not hard to understand, is it? What you mean, I assume, is that Friesland is Old-Frisia in your vocabulary. But Friesland still exists, and Frisia does too. They have exactly the same borders around the province, it's all the same.

This isn't a lame disussion about nationalism, nor the Greeks about Macedonia. This is efficiency about articles, something Wikipedia wants and stands for. Maybe there should be started an article Old-Friesland, or Old-Frisia. But Friesland and Frisia are the same area, said in different languages. Fallon Turner

I think you are confused. This is a map of Frisia, and this is a map of Friesland. According to Britannica, It has been divided since 1815 into Friesland, a province of The Netherlands, and the Ostfriesland and Nordfriesland regions of northwestern Germany. So as you can see, Frisia (the region) is much larger than Friesland (the province of the Netherlands), and they are different things. Khoikhoi 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you want to read the articles before saying stuff that is nonsens. Friesland the provincie is not the same as the region as you can read in the article. And merging is something different than renaming.. Dolfy 09:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Flag? What flag?

The second paragraph describing the flag of Frisia starts out: "As you can see, the flag has been inspired by the Scandinavic cross.... ". What I don't see is the flag being described here. Would someone mind putting this flag on the page? Paploo 17:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Pier Gerlofs Donia

I suggest you to add Pier Gerlofs Donia, Frisia's best known warrior and folk hero, into this article. -The Bold Guy- 11:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources

S. are cited on the german pages de:Nordfriesland resp. de:Ostfriesland. These articles may be used too as most of the facts are the same. --SonniWP 19:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Deleted section

I deleted:

In the 4th century the power of the Roman Empire gradually decreased and the northern parts of the kingdom were frequently encursed by german tribes. The Franks particullary raided the Gaul region, the Frisians and Saxons often crossed the north sea to plunder parts of Great Britain. In this time the frisian people conducted piracy and lived from the Old Rhine to the Weser. When the western part of the Roman Empire collapsed the majority of the frisian people left their settlements and settled on the other side of the North Sea.

I do not think there are good sources for this. Probably nobody can know now if the "majority of the Frisian people left" and settled in England. /Pieter Kuiper 22:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Frisian Alliance?

Is it a good idea to name the Frisian Alliance in the article? Their webpage looks like a prank. I mean, they want to raise 12 year old girls as priestesses and let them wear not-too-long skirts. Does that sound credible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qense (talk • contribs) 16:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

One Frisia or three (or four)?

Is it really correct to say "Frisia is a coastal region along..." Frisia may have once been a single region but there are serious geographical gaps between modern conceptions of West Friesland, Friesland, East Frisia, and North Frisia. Do people in Groningen today consider themselves to be in "Frisia"? Should this be made clear in the article? —  AjaxSmack  03:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

In germany we differentiate exactly these three frisian landscapes. Frisia never was a state of its own - always ruled by others. --SonniWP 19:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Greetings from germany (see the interwikilinks of my userpage)

That is not true in ancient times they had a kingdom of their own. But I am not sure it is a single region any more but I do know there is a huge gab between east and north Frisia that is certainly not Frisia. 86.87.73.104 (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

saxons?

Are the Frisians a Saxon tribe? I always thought they were, but I do not see that in this article. 38.124.250.218 (talk) 20:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Dutch nationalists warning

Please do not merge the article Friesland into Frisia, it is not the same. We cannot do this, because the history of Frisia is not the history of the province Friesland. Then you can merge the article into East-Frisia or Groningen as well. So if its only the history of the province Friesland (according Dutch nationalists), this would be discrimination towards other former Frisian regions. I haven't seen one good reason so far for merging this article into the province Friesland, so please reject this proposal.

If needed, I have to warn the moderators of the English wikipedia. I recognize this discussion from the Greek nationalists concerning the Macedonian articles.

Kind regards, Kening Aldgilles 10 apr 07, 20:12 CET —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.177.83.100 (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Mind your language. And try to think through what you're saying. Dutch nationalists wouldn't want to merge Friesland in here, since that would run against their one united Netherland view.

Also, while I think merging Friesland here would yield and unwieldy and large article, it does make sense on some level. Why? Since Friesland is the only part of Frisia that remained Frisia. The rest split off or was conquered.

Merging East-Frisia or Groningen with either article wouldn't make sense for the very reason that merging Frisia and Friesland would, so you're putting up a strawman, which is impolite at best.

Please, next time you post something, try to contain your unfounded anger and be nice to people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.86.185 (talk) 11:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Map with larger perspective

For the benefit of readers without a general knowledge of the geography of Northern Europe, this article should have a map that shows Frisia related to larger known countries. __meco (talk) 20:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Dead External Link

Geofrisia.com seems not to be active. I apologize if this is in the wrong location, but i didn't want to make an inappropriate edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.59.48 (talk) 02:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

South Frisia

Why there is no such way for South Frisia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.9.3 (talk) 01:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

South Frisia is a technical term, used by linguisticists, archaeologists and historians. It has not been used in historical sources. Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 01:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Deleted text

I skipped the whole paragraph on Loss of territory, as no part of the asserted 'facts' seems to fit with historical evidence. Apparently the author wanted to make a connection between medieval floods and the fading away of Frisian identity in West Friesland. This, however, is a blatant oversimplification. Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 01:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

@Otto S. Knottnerus: your edits improved the article. But, I also think that geographic changes did contribute to changing the population of the delta region for as long as the area was populated. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Problematic

This article has some problematic aspects. To begin with the assumed dichotomy between Frisia and Friesland, which has certain WP:OR and WP:POV aspects. It also seems a bit tilted towards the claims of the "Groep fan Auwerk". I believe that to fix this article there has to be a quite extensive rewrite. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:25, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I have reverted to User:Bender235's version of January this year. As that seems the best solution for now. There are still some problematic issues to be resolved however. I will not, for now, touch upon the dichotomy between Frisia and Friesland. But there will have to be more balance in the identification with the regions, as they are at present, with the concept at large. I think it's important to mention that, because it's a very interesting aspect of the situation. I think we should also add text with sources about the historical dichotomy between Frisii and Frisians, which is a difficult subject to tackle, but which should, at least, be mentioned. And then there are more matters.. I'm planning to look into that shortly and I have made an edit to an earlier version for now. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:53, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Frisian Flag

I have seen a Frisian flag of striking design: A white field of equidistant, diagonal, aquamarine stripes, with the white spaces in between showing some 10 equidistantly spaced, plump, carmine, U-shaped patterns, whose meaning I do not understand and would hope to be enlightened. 25 Aug 2005. <derr47icg@telus.net>

That's the flag of the Dutch province of Friesland, but it also serves as a symbol for people elsewhere who self-identify as ethnic Frisians (whether based on language, geneology or just mere residence somewhere in historic Frisia). The plump U-shaped thingies are supposed to represent floating waterlily leaves(!), but since they are red most people would mistake them for hearts... See also Flags of non-sovereign nations of Europe. Enjoy! //Big Adamsky 19:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

It is more than just the flag of the province of Friesland, as it is part of the weapon of Groningen.

The Groninger Ommelanden have always been regarded as Frisian lands, so the weapon of the province of Groningen consists of two quarters with the Frisian Flag and two quarters with the double Imperial Eagle of the city of Groningen. (Erik Springelkamp (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC))

User:Erik Springelkamp, The arms of the "Ommelanden" is not the same as the Frisian flag. The number of red objects is different. As is the nature of these objects (hearts instead of leaves). Also the whole ensemble has a different aspect ratio. Sorry for the necromancing.... Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:05, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Danish North Frisia?

It seems strange that lone amongst the Wadden Sea archipelago, the Danish Wadden Sea Islands are somehow believed never to have been in any sense Frisian. The article Danish Wadden Sea Islands claims that no Frisians ever lived there, but the sources cited for that claim do not support it (one is a map of language difference within the present day German North Frisia with no mention of other areas, the other is a dead link to a similarly titled map).

It is also worth noting that prior to 1920 the present border between Germany and Denmark was not at its current location, with a slightly larger portion of the Wadden Sea for centuries being part of the Danish/German Dutchy of Schleswig, thus some sources discussing the issue of the presence of Frisians on what is now the Danish Wadden Sea Islands may be conflated with information based on different border locations, thus extra care is needed in using such sources, see History of Schleswig-Holstein for a more detailed account of these constant border movements, including multiple occurrences of forced migrations and some mention of a Frisian speaking minority somewhere.

Accordingly, someone with much better knowledge of the subject than I should try to figure out if this northernmost part of the Wadden Sea was ever Frisian. Jbohmdk (talk) 23:22, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The boundary between between Frisian and Jutish colonisation runs/ran along the River of Vidå / Wiedau. You can see that (among others) in the map over the historic boundary of the Frisian settlement on the site of the North Frisian Institute (other sources: North Frisian Association; Verein für Computergenealogie e.V). So the northern border of the North Frisian settlement is largely identical with today's state border. But among the North Frisians were of course also Danish-minded North Friesians. With relation to the Frisian language, I can quote from the Handbook of Frisian Studies, page 267: "The border between Frisian and Jutish seems to have hardly moved for centuries apart from a small Friaians Expansion to the east. (...) Frisian ist spoken on the mainland from the Dano-German state border down to about (but not including) the small town of Bredstedt (...)" --93.201.108.15 (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence of Frisian colonisation on the Danish islands, though there has been a Dutch village in the Ballum Maersk. See, however, the book by Benny Siewertsen, Friserne -vore glemte forfædre and my critical review in De vrije Fries 2008. Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 01:20, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Otto S. Knottnerus, The Islands and coastal area in Schleswig, settled by Frisians in the Middle Ages, was however Danish at the time of settlement. Schleswig only became German in 1866, and while North Schleswig was returned to Denmark in 1919, it's Frisian parts remained German. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:08, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, Gerard von Hebel, of course, that's the reason king Christian VIII spent his summer holidays on the island of Föhr, for instance. In the Middle Ages the Frisians settled on Danish or even viking territory and leaving the drowning islands they colonized the Jutish mainland. But for the modern reader we shoud prevent confusion with the islands of Rømø, Mandø and Fanø, which have no traces of Frisian settlement, in spite of Benny Siewertsen's efforts to prove otherwise.Otto S. Knottnerus (talk) 18:20, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough Otto S. Knottnerus, I suppose you're right. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 16:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

"Frisia"

As far as I'm concerned (as an English-speaking translator), "Frisia" simply isn't an English word. All native English-speakers refer to the area as "Friesland", although the adjective and the name of the language are "Frisian". I'm afraid arguments by Dutch-speakers or Frisian-speakers about what the place should be called in English are irrelevant, just like the insistence that English-speakers "must" refer to "Nederland" as "the Netherlands" (worse still, "The Netherlands" with a capital "T" in mid-sentence) just because the Dutch language makes a distinction between "Holland" and "Nederland". The truth is that most English-speakers refer to the country as "Holland" - just as most Dutch-speakers refer to the whole of Britain as "Engeland". It's a fact of life, just like the fact that Friesland is always called "Friesland" and not "Frisia" in English.213.127.210.95 (talk) 23:12, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Present day/Largest municipalities in the present-day region

The region is a historic region from a time when the cities mentioned did not exist. Wilhelmshaven, for one, was founded in 1853. Adding 'present-day' does not help, since 'present day' the region does not exist in any reasonable way. The addition of this list is misleading and suggests an association which simply never existed. Kleuske (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Flag of Nordfriesland

In June 2019 an IP user placed a citation request on the flag for Nordfriesland, raising the question with this edit summary: "→‎Divisions: This is the flag of North Holland in the Netherlands, made up by combining the west-Frisian flag and the Hollandic flag. Can anyone show a source for this flag being the flag of Nordfriesland?"

No one has responded to the citation request in six months, and a check of the web page for Kreis Nordfriesland [1] confirms the district flag is as per this photo on their site: [2]. This accords with this page: [3] and incorporates the coat of arms described on the district's web page: [4] which is incorporated into that flag.

I am not sure if there is a wikimedia or CC licensed version of the flag we can use. Will look now. In the mean time I will remove the wrong flag. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 20:27, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Problems with the Usage of West Frisia, East Frisia and North Frisia

Currently the page seems to divide Friesland based on the two main regions of West Frisia and East Frisia and the northern Danish, non bordering region of North Frisia.

The problem arises when one looks through historical uses of the meanings of these regions.

West Frisia can both refer to Westerlauwers Frisia, seperated by the Lauwers stream and bay which is a counter part to Easternlauwers Frisia or West Frisia can refer to the region of Frisia that nowadays constitutes Holland and in a more narrow sense, the small region of Westfrisia in North Holland.

So, what is the problem? It's that there is actually a term in history which is Middle Frisia. This is mentioned in the County of Middle Frisia.

This is in contrast to the same period in history where the Counts of Frisia (West of the Vlie) renamed themselves to the Counts of Holland.

Given this, I think it's a problem to not seperate the idea of the modern Friesland province and Ommelanden in the Netherlands versus the Region of Frisia (West of the Vlie river / sea-arm).

I propose the regions be better served if there is a distinction made between Westfrisia (the regions of Holland and Westfriesland as the region is today in North Holland) and Middle Frisia or Middle-Friesland with the inclusion of the province of Friesland and the area of the Ommelanden in the Province of Groningen.

--2A02:A455:B92:1:EDD3:6017:A5ED:36E0 (talk) 05:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Groep fan Auwerk

Do we have to feature the Groep fan Auwerk so prominently? For starters, it overstates its importance, since most Dutch (even Frisian Dutch) haven't heard of it. Also, it holds some very fringe views, like Frisian independence, like claiming Groningen and other now non-Frisian territories as Frisian, and wanting to hoist a Dutch-coloured Christian flag upon German Frisian territories as well. In other words, they're a fringe group not taken seriously by the mainstream of society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.86.185 (talk • contribs) 11:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)