Talk:Freeware

More emphasis on license?

This article should include more of a focus on freeware as a type of license. Freeware, as programs, aren't really distinct from other types of software. Rather, the significance of freeware is the terms under which the software is provided, i.e. a license. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed "Since freeware refers to the terms under which software is provided, it is a type of software license rather than a functional software category." from the intro. Freeware is not a license. A license is related to IP and the right to modify and redistribute the software. The developer/publisher of a freeware app can choose to include a restrictive EULA or adapt a less restrictive free software license. The developer can include copyleft restrictions as well. As the article points out, freeware is not necessarily the same as free software. Free software come with free software licenses. Free software grants certain freedoms to the end-users. Freeware does not have to be free in that sense. A freeware application can have a proprietary license, a free software license (e.g. GPL), or no license at all. Slo-mo 11:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Huh? A license is the set of conditions under which the software is offered. A license agreement is the contract between the user and copyright owner to adhere to those terms. You cannot have a license agreement without a license to agree to. A EULA document includes the text of the license (otherwise you'd be agreeing to nothing). A license is not limited to modification and redistribution -- binaries are also copyrightable, and without a license you cannot legally redistribute them. However, you're correct that public domain software is not licensed, so I will add that qualification. Ham Pastrami (talk) 16:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I kind of misinterpreted your reference to license-free software. I thought you meant public domain, which is a valid point. However, the article you referenced is about a type of licensing that has been coined as "license-free", in the same sense that "copyleft" is in fact a form of copyright, and neither really has any relevance to this topic that I can see. Ham Pastrami (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Slo-mo is right. "Freeware" is not about licenses, it's about prices ($0.00). You can have freeware that is GPL-licensed, a la free software. You can have freeware that disavows ownership, a la public domain software. And you can have freeware that doesn't permit redistribution, a la proprietary software. RossPatterson (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Your argument about price is certainly much more understandable; the word "freeware" means gratis software, I agree with that. What I disagree with is that, apparently contrary to Slo Mo's and the latter half of your argument, yes, there is such a thing as a "freeware license": trivially, any license that is attached to freeware. The sentence in question doesn't say what freeware is, it says what the word freeware refers to -- its terms of use. You can edit this to be more precise if you like, or you can remove it if you believe it to be stating the obvious, but to say that freeware isn't a type of licensing is incorrect; the duality of open source and proprietary licenses is not absolute. In fact, the latter as a category only exists as the antithesis to the former. Freeware licensing, shareware licensing, etc. are all valid types of licenses that exist outside the blanket of "proprietary". That is whether Richard Stallman likes it or not. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to correct myself: the sentence as worded does imply a re-definition of "freeware", that is a mistake and I will change it now. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ä 176.224.51.190 (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Free2Play

Shouldn't Free2Play be added. Free2Play is a common form or term using by the gaming industry that indicate the game as a Freeware EULA. I know it usually come in 2 forms, free forever and premium accounts or free forever account only, both with Marketplace / Item-mall. Marketplace or Item-mall is the most commonly type of operations that a free MMO games operate. Larger corporations such as Digicell and K2Network often have a community game that is used for online transaction or multiple accounts. --Ramu50 (talk) 01:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Shareware x Freeware

The article concering Shareware says "(shareware)...is distributed without payment on a trial basis and is limited by any combination of functionality, availability, or convenience...The aim of shareware is to give buyers the opportunity to use the program and judge its usefulness before purchasing a licence for the full version of the software."

Whereas Freeware says: "Freeware is computer software that is available for use with no cost or for an optional fee.[1]. Freeware is different from shareware, where the user is obliged to pay (e.g. after some trial period or for additional functionality)."

Isn't that somewhat contradictory? Or did I misunderstand what is said here? There are optional fees, but how doesn't that make it shareware? You do pay fees for more functionality or convenience, then it is shareware. And in Shareware it is said that the user is limited by any combination "functionality, availability, or convenience". I guess demos could fit in the description, even those that have no expiration time. To what extent can't "freeware" with fees or extra subscriptions be considered a demo or trial of some sort? I always believed that freeware was some piece of software 100% free (no subscriptions or extra fees).

For example, F2P games, as mentioned above, are often considered as "freeware" by many. But they almost always have "cash shops", and users who don't pay to get credit for buying extra stuff from such cash shops usually don't experience a "complete" version of the game in comparison to those who pay, this ranges from insignificant things to vital aspects of the gameplay. And even that way, all of them claim to be "freeware", not "shareware". Can someone help me coming up with the real definition on this?--Faitudum (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the writing is merely vague... the appositive attached to the end of the second sentence is talking about shareware, not the freeware that is initially mentioned. I'll try to clean this up right now. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There's always been a lot of ambiguity in these terms. The very stripped-down article as it now stands is a pretty good definition of the historic meaning of freeware. Shareware, in the Association of Shareware Professionals Sense, was software you could try (fully-featured) for a period and then were required to buy. I'd argue that the term is largely meaningless today as that would include all manner of software from the likes of Adobe and Microsoft as well. ghaff (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Examples

I believe Firefox should be removed as an example. While it is technically Freeware because no monetary contribution is required, Firefox is general considered to be free software, which is something this article is attempting to avoid confusion with. For the sake of avoiding said confusion, free software such as Firefox should be removed or at the least many examples of proprietary freeware should be added along with it and distinguished from free software. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.134.204.247 (talk) 17:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Indee a confusion with Free software is possible, but as you say, Firefox is technically freeware. I've made it clear that there is closed-source freeware and open-source freeware. --SF007 (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Criteria section

The current Criteria section says more about "free software" than it does about freeware. -- leuce (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I have commented in the past that the constant comparisons being added to free software places undue emphasis in an article that is supposed to be about freeware. What I've noticed, however, is that the WP community overall places undue weight on the free software concept, likely because WP itself is based on it (GFDL). I am of the opinion that the only mention of free software that is really necessary is the disambiguation link at the top. Historically, the form of licensing most compared to freeware is shareware. Certainly, if there's going to be an extensive discussion centered on "freeware vs" the bulk of it should be regarding shareware. Otherwise all of this belongs in a Comparison of software licenses article. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Very valid point. I guess I need to read the "Free Software" article to find out about Freeware instead. Since this is epidemic on WP though I guess deleting FSF references here would not do much good. 63.241.31.130 (talk) 21:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

The section only has two sentences on free software, and is hardly a majority:

Accordingly, freeware may or may not be free software or open source software. The principal difference being that free software can be used, studied, and modified without restriction; free software embodies the concept of "libre" while freeware that of "gratis".

Also, the intro has a necessary mention.

Freeware is generally proprietary software available at zero price, and is not free software.

This doesn't seem like "undue emphasis" to me.

The article is really just a stub still, in my opinion. More material and references should be added, rather than threats to splicing things out. --Ashawley (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Confusion on the "free beer" analogy

In the Criteria section, part-way into the second paragraph, it says, "The principal difference being that free software can be used, studied, and modified without restriction; free software embodies the concept of 'free speech' while freeware that of 'free beer'." Call me stupid, but I have never heard that before, therefore I don't know what is being alluded to here. Could that maybe be fixed, or at least clarified in the article? Thanks. 98.202.38.225 (talk) 23:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Usage of the term freeware

Quick question: Is the correct usage:
1) Program X is a freeware.
2) Program X is freeware.
Inquiring minds want to know! -- Schapel (talk) 13:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to have taken six years to respond to your question. In my experience, your option 2 is standard usage. Thus, "Google Chrome is freeware" (and now for the war to start based upon my chosen example).Ambiguosity (talk) 06:28, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

When "freeware" is not freeware?

When it's crippleware, nagware, adware, spyware, trialware etc. Is this incorrect? I see lots of people trying to promote programs as freewares when what you actually get isn't the full program but a crippled version, or it's somthing that keeps showing advertisement or nagging you to buy the full version/"register", or somthing that doesn't stay fully functional after a small period etc; it is incorrect to call those freewares, don't you agree? --TiagoTiago (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

• crippleware, nagware, adware, spyware, trialware Yug (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Freeware make better code

• http://www.technewsworld.com/story/software/73491.html

Yug (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for new definition

I've been pondering this, and I think that this would make a good definition for the lead:

Freeware is software that is provided at no cost, but whose license terms violate one or more principles of the Free Software Definition.

Can anyone else offer an opinion on this? Pokajanje|Talk 21:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

This would be a npov propaganda pro-free software statement... that is a subtle political statement that cannot be on Wikipedia. --Pretty les♀♥, Dark Mistress, talk, 15:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

NPOV (neutral point of view) propaganda is fine! ;) --AVRS (talk) 13:18, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Coverage of free software vs. freeware

Hello.

Two days ago, Shaddim removed mention of free software from the lead. (Revision 698515903) I contested this edit (per Wikipedia:Editing policy § Talking and editing) with a partial revert. I didn't feel a full revert is justified. (Revision 698627903) I rewrote the lead to:

• remove examples per WP:SPAMBAIT
• re-include the removed contents, because the lead must summarize the body, and the body already covers this distinction in three paragraphs:

[...]In contrast to what the FSF calls free software, the author usually restricts the rights of the user to use, copy, distribute, modify, make derivative works, or reverse-engineer the software.[...]

The US Department of Defense (DoD) defines "open source software" (i.e., free software or free and open source software), as distinct from "freeware" or "shareware"; it is software where "the Government does not have access to the original source code".[12] The "free" in "freeware" refers to the price of the software, which is typically proprietary and distributed without source code. By contrast, the "free" in "free software" refers to freedoms granted users under the software license (for example, to run the program for any purpose, modify and redistribute the program to others), and such software may be sold at a price.

According to the Free Software Foundation (FSF), "freeware" is a loosely defined category and it has no clear accepted definition, although FSF asks that free software (libre; unrestricted and with source code available) should not be called freeware.[3] In contrast the Oxford English Dictionary simply characterizes freeware as being "available free of charge (sometimes with the suggestion that users should make a donation to the provider)".[13]

You can compare both diffs to see the net result.

But apparently, Shaddim is not satisfied. Countering a partial revert with a full revert (or in general, counter-reverting) is a recipe for edit warring and I am hoping to avoid it. So first question: Is a single twelve-words sentence undue coverage for all that I quoted above?

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 09:01, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Codename Lisa, thanks for discussing this topic in detail. First, a lead should explain the concept and the definition of the DoD is most near in doing that. In contrast, the FSF approach of defining Freeware as "non-free-software" is for a layman totally not helpful in understanding what Freeware is, as he at first needs to learn was Free software is. What is also historical problematic as the concept of freeware existed before free software. Infact, it should be explained way around as secondary topic that Free software evolved from "freeware" as specialized form. And, two examples of historical relevance are not SPAMBAIT at all (infact I don't care which example you chose but removing easy to understand exmaples is not helpful) cheers Shaddim (talk) 10:18, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

@Shaddim: Hi. I can put the examples back for the time we are discussing this.

As for your first concern, originally I compressed your sentence ("Freeware may have restrictions such as unavailable source code and sometimes prohibited redistribution") into the "proprietary software" phrase, but if you feel the article must be self-contained, please check the edit that I am about to post: I am expelling "free software" and instead further define the proprietary software aspect. (Sure, suggestions and live modifications are welcome.)

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 17:22, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello Codename Lisa, First, I like the latest additions you did. I hope you find the extensions by me acceptable. The last major concern I have is in the initial sentence the early definition via "proprietary softare" which is in the generla public not well known or correctly understood. I would prefer if this topic would be explained later, maybe in the connection of the source code and other rights "As the usage rights for user of freeware are limited by the authors exclusive right it can be classified as proprietary software". As first sentence "Freeware is a software which is available (for instance by download or by media) at no montary cost." cheers Shaddim (talk) 17:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Shaddim: I love your compromise version. Thanks. —Codename Lisa (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Freeware critique

The introduction to the article is well written and gives a good overall view of the subject. The History section is not very long and can be expanded to give a more complete picture of the subject’s history. The section “definitions” has two sub-sections, “Software license” and “Relation to other forms of software licensing”. These sections are well written and give the reader a good understanding of their subjects. There is also a graphic that visualizes the relationship between freeware and open-source software. I’m not sure if “Definitions” is the best title for the section, though. The final section, “Restrictions” is also well written. There is a “See Also” list that list other Wikipedia articles related to this one. The article contains twenty Citations, which, I think is a good number for an article this size. The “References” Section contains notes on many of the references, which gives the reader a better understanding of what the reference contains. There are only two listings in the “External Links” section, and I think that there can be more links added to this section.
Overall, I think that the article is well written, with a good number of citations. Some of the sections, though I think can be expanded to add more information pertaining to the subject.

Original Sentence:

The term freeware was coined in 1982 by Andrew Fluegelman when he wanted to sell a communications program named PC-Talk that he had created but for which he did not wish to use commercial distribution channels.

Modified Sentence:

Andrew Fluegelman coined the term “freeware” in 1982 when he developed PC-Talk, a communications program, and he did not want to sell it through commercial distribution channels.

Any comments on this critique would be appreciated.

Heronhaus (talk) 02:19, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Freeware software Registration

When dealing with freeware products first thing that one should take care of is to find the difference between personal and business use. If the freeware is defined for the personal use only such as downloading the software program, installing and running the software mainly on one computer on which the software is downloaded then the software is all free! Now, if the same person is working for a firm and downloads the software on a office computer then it is considered as business use. As the software is downloaded on the office computer under the firm name the software will have lot of demands such as it includes the fee for the software, the software is looked as a commercial software, will have to seek permissions. So, the safe plan keeping all these things in mind is to simply treat these software programs as if they are business freeware products and then register their usage accordingly.Pkotrike (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Is this entry currently useful or meaningful?

I came to this entry from Wikipedia's List of commercial video games released as freeware, as that list and its talk did not make clear to me what 'freeware' is. Having read this article, and its talk, I am no clearer to gaining an understanding of what freeware is, and how it is distinguished from non-freeware. Given this lack of clarity, I suggest that either:

1. this entry should be thoroughly reviewed, with the aim of presenting a clear, simple definition followed by explanations about how freeware differs from other forms of software licencing;
2. consideration be given to removing this entry, as in its current state it adds no value to the encyclopaedia, and replacing the term 'freeware' in other articles with an alternative - clearly defined - term; or
3. a respondent tell me that I am wrong/misguided/idiotic and explaining exactly what freeware is and is not in a manner that does not require the kinds of acrobatic leaps that the current entry makes.

As it currently stands, this entry almost appears designed to confuse. Discussion about it has also been directed around "what is freeware", with individuals seeking to apply their own definitions, and an assortment of potential definitions offered up only to be quickly rejected in favour of the existing mish-mash. If the rest of the world cannot agree what freeware is and is not, should Wikipedia even try? In fact, that leads me to a fourth option - retention of the entry as discussion of a 'controversy', rather than seeking to provide a definition.Ambiguosity (talk) 06:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello

Quite frankly I am dumbfounded as to why you are so baffled (and am open to the suggestion that you only pretend to be baffled.) The article is very straightforward to me and it does present a clear, simple definition: "Freeware is proprietary software that is available for use at no monetary cost."

If you can demonstrate complication through further example and explanation, please do so. I will try to answer your concerns.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 07:24, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Lisa, why is only proprietary software able to be freeware? Says whom? Where is the logic in this definition? Why is open source software excluded?

When you say 'no monetary cost', does that mean adware is freeware? What about pay-for-play - with potential monetary cost, but you don't necessarily have to pay?

Is software that home users are permitted to use for no cost but for which businesses must pay freeware? Why, or why not?

In other words, the definition you present seems arbitrary and incomplete, is potentially inconsistent in its application, and does not appear to be agreed by all (most?) stakeholders. Given this, I wonder how Wikipedia can possibly declare this to be the definition.

Of course, the 'straightforward' definition you have presented is at the beginning of the entry. By the end, unfortunately, the reader will have been taken through all of the ifs, buts and maybes that I just stated, and a lot more. It is almost as bad as seeking a legal definition of hard-core pornography: "I know it when I see it".Ambiguosity (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello again

You said the definition is vague but instead you start by asking questions that have nothing to do with the definition itself, like "Says whom?" and "why?" (By the way, it is "Says who?" not "says whom?".) Moreover, all of your questions are answered in the article, except "Where is the logic in this definition?" which is a retort, not a question.

So, if you are here to throw mud at the article which you didn't even read, you are not welcome.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Why does gratis F.O.S.S. software excluded from Freeware?

According to FSF, the definition of "Freeware" is ambiguous, if so why the definition clearly excluded all gratis released F.O.S.S. and only including proprietary software?

Why does Freeware HAS TO not providing user at least 1 essential freedom(TM)? -- Vdragon.TW (talk) 11:34, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

While often Open source software is also freeware....it is not always. As FOSS software makes it an important point that it is not about "commerciality" ("orthogonal/we don't care") and Freeware is about commerciality, e.g. the lack of price, the concepts are mostly orthogonal. To formulate it another way: not all FOSS software is freeware, nor is this required or prohibited by FOSS licenses, so it is hard to include the FOSS software here in a single sentence explanation Shaddim (talk) 11:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your heads-up, personally I believe that the "proprietary" term should be removed from freeware's definition, just saying -- Vdragon.TW (talk) 11:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

After some further thinking , I think you are right and will try reformulate ... but I believe, much more work is needed in the header and definition part 11:43, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

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