Talk:Frederick Miller

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On the German Page it says that he was born in Riedlingen not Sigmaringen: Frederick Miller (* 24. November 1824 in Riedlingen, Württemberg; † 11. Mai 1888 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA) But started his brewery career in Sigmaringen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.212.28.25 (talk) 22:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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I am related to Frederick Miller

He is my great great great grandfather

WikiTree is not a reliable source

Hi MarconiCheese, even though I understand your general point with this: where is the source for him being born Müller or having that additional first name Edward? If the birth record, which is linked at his WikiTree profile, does not include that name, and his death record, which is also linked there, does not include it, where should it come from? From an unsourced Find a Grave page that probably copied from Wikipedia? --Flominator (talk) 13:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. The name needs a reliable source. I'll do what I can to try to find one. MarconiCheese (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for adding the source, but I'm still convinced that the name is wrong. Like stated: neither birth nor death record mention that name, which was his father's. The only mentions of that additional name pop up in the 1990s and get replicated through various beer books (see the source collection here). I would assume those all go back to a mistaken press release from the brewery. It is also noteworthy that the present day brewery website only mentions him as Frederick J. Miller as well. Flominator (talk) 07:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may (or may not) be correct in your skepticism about the name. But it appears that you're butting your head against several core, long-standing Wikipedia policies: (1.) "verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information." (2.) "reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published, the definition of which for the purposes of Wikipedia is made available to the public in some form.[f] Unpublished materials are not considered reliable." (3.) WP:OR: "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists."

It appears that you're using genealogical standards to judge the accuracy of the name. I'm a genealogist, too, and the lack of solid evidence regarding the name would bother me as a genealogist. However, Wikipedia's policies call only for support in published, reliable sources, and it appears there is plenty of that. So, maybe you should stop trying to butt your head against a brick wall and relax a little. Thanks for the good discussion. MarconiCheese (talk) 22:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@MarconiCheese: I'm fully aware of those rules, since I've been a pretty extensive contributor at German Wikipedia before I became a genealogist. I might have created the wrong impression, by mentioning WikiTree in my edit summary. I only used it in order not having to quote all the sources for the correction of the mistake. Let's forget the WikiTree page. It is verifiable, that he was not "Born Friedrich Eduard Johannes Müller", by citing the birth record and the death record. Both do not contain Eduard. These sources are independent and reliable and "available to the public in some form" and archived by a reputable party (in this case the State Archives of Baden-Württemberg and the Wisconsin Bureau of Vital Statistics and Bureau of Health Statistics). Also, WP:SCHOLARSHIP only asks for caution, when working with primary sources (but again mostly referring to scientific papers, not archive material) instead of completely outlawing.

The idea of original research as in WP:OR, in my opinion, is a different one and doesn't really apply here. I believe the rationale behind it, was to prevent people publishing their own theories, like cures for diseases, ideas for new physical laws and stuff, not to prevent obviously wrong facts from being corrected. Me trying to find sources for the name before the 1990s, I would not consider "own research" in the scientific sense covered by the rule, but rather the process of carefully weighing a source to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. A name at birth to me seems to be a case, where "older reports (closer to the event [...] are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing.".

May I now correct the name by properly adding references to the sources, rather than adding just a WikiTree link in the edit summary (sorry for that!)? --Flominator (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're incorrect in some of your interpretations of Wikipedia policy, but I don't have the time to research this. I also think this needs more sets of eyes on it than just mine. Please take this to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard before adding your sources. MarconiCheese (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]