Talk:Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel

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Naming

According to Noel McFerran, Google Books overwhelmingly gives the Landgrave's title as Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel. At any rate, either Cassel or Kassel needs to be appended to the end of his name as he did not rule all of Hesse, just Hesse-Cassel as Hesse-Darmstadt was a landgraviate as well. This also raises questions (for me at least) regarding the use of "Kassel" for other Hessian rulers and princes as "Hesse-Cassel" seems to be a more common form than "Hesse-Kassel", even if Kassel/Cassel alone differs. One must remember though: Hesse-Cassel/Kassel ≠ Cassel/Kassel. Charles 21:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Noel has failed to follow up on this page, so I am nominating it for a move. Charles 00:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse → Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel or Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel — Frederick II was landgrave of the Cassel/Kassel division of Hesse, not of Hesse in its entirety. During his reign, there was a separate landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt. Both Hesses together made Hesse. I prefer the form Cassel as it was the form used in the titles, also noting that: Hesse-Cassel/Kassel ≠ Cassel/Kassel, meaning the city and its name is not the same thing as the landgraviate and its name. —Charles 00:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Support move to Hesse-Cassel, as it seems to be the most common name and was the form used in the titles in English. Hesse-Cassel is not the same as Cassel/Kassel only and cannot be compared directly to it for naming. Charles 00:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support at least a move to "of Hesse-Cassel" or "of Hesse-Kassel". Olessi 15:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support per User talk:Charles#Hesse-Cassel. — Sebastian 01:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC) (I am open to changing or amending this vote or statement. If you feel facts changed sufficiently after I posted this, please let me know, as I may not be watching this page.)[reply]

Discussion

More often then not, seems that Kassel is used instead of Cassel, ie Louise of Hesse-Kassel or Marie Sophie of Hesse-Kassel and Kassel itself — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.196.130 (talk)

Please read the commentary on the talk page. One, the city of Cassel is not the same thing as the Landgraviate of Hesse-Cassel. Two, names are not consistent across Wikipedia, if they were I would not have put a choice. Three, Noel McFerran has noted that the form "Cassel" is used more for this landgrave. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes (that being this: ~~~~). Charles 08:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had initiated an unsuccessful RM of Hesse-Kassel to Hesse-Cassel before. Concerning the phrase "Landgrave of Hesse-Foo" in publications since 1950, Google Books indicates that "Hesse-Cassel" is used more frequently than "Hesse-Kassel". Olessi 15:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is indeed the form which should be used then. Charles 17:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article should be standardized with the other articles in Category:House of Hesse-Kassel. A WP-wide move to Hesse-Cassel could then be reconsidered. Olessi 22:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the individual merits ought to be considered, really. That is the best way to effect a proper change of the names of other articles. As Noel McFerran, a librarian, pointed out, most works refer to this name as Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel, not Hesse-Kassel. I think that we should go on that, which is solidly supported, and use it as just cause to initiate other moves. Charles 22:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request moves

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cassel is in France. Kassel is the actually Hessian area the article is about. If the Editor who moved it was so concern, why leave Kassel used throughout the article and only change the title? Request to move it to the orignal Kassel. Since there wasn't much in the way of discussion expect for a few "not really sure about Cassel" and with User:Charles semi-retired (really?) maybe finally get it moved back to be in with the rest of Kassel line. Cladeal832 (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overall think people who revert the edits are interested in Wikialty (something is true because I can get other Users to agree to it) then the actual informative content of the articles relating the Kassel branch of the former ruling house of Hesse, but if all interested, overall issue under way at Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel Cladeal832 (talk) 04:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Google scholar searches indicate "Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel" is by far the more usual spelling as opposed to "Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel" by a margin of 233–52. More general searches for "Hesse-Cassel" and "Hesse-Kassel" give a margin of 1660–746, with many of the 746 in foreign languages and all of the 1660 in English. Finally, as Kassel was called Cassel until 1926, this individual would have been known as Hesse-Cassel throughout their entire life, and not as "Hesse-Kassel". DrKiernan (talk) 07:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move as before. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Cladeal832. JPG-GR (talk) 01:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an actual arguement. Britannica Encyclopedia and Columbia Encyclopedia use Hesse-Kassel as well many other reference source. Google Scholar in the Recent Articles option, Hesse-Cassel get 183 hits, which is less then Hesse-Kassel which get 209 hits. and if Editors check Catherine of Aragon#Spelling of her name, while during her lifetime Katherine was used, the fact that most modern scholars use Catherine trumps that. Kassel is the proper name in English today and Cassel has been used offically since 1926 so pretty sure that's a sign it's out-of-date. Also the Move Request guideline state that wider consensus is better then one for a few articles. Quote "Consensus decisions in specific cases are not expected to automatically override consensus on a wider scale" Since all but 6 articles use Hesse-Kassel is clear sign of wider consensus then this article to be moved then just this one discussion. Also refer to Talk:Hesse-Kassel#Requested move and see that although consensus is apparently not being reached on this page for the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, it already has been for the wider Hesse-Cassel vs. Hesse-Kassel question. So this arguement is mute and I wouldn't mind it so much except for that the Editors opposing this move either do not give points for Hesse-Cassel or not respond when the points they have made have been refuted. Cladeal832 (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a disruptive move request by a single-purpose account, with whom nobody agrees. Strongly oppose. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree; see here Knepflerle (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Agree Agree with the above mentioned points. Please try not to make this personal. MeanLevels (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why not? This is a attack on English usage by nationalists, arguing in bad faith in the hope of exhausting the opposition. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And this edit demonstrates a WP:CANVASS violation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That implies that I either send it out to multiple users, which I didn't, or that I tried to influence them, which I didn't. I send a message to one user who came to this discussion on his or her own and ask that since you stated that I was the only one interest in moving, thought he or she would like to know about User:PMAnderson skewing the discussion and leaving that User out. I notice again that User:PMAnderson is making me the issue and still won't argue Kassel issue beyond overblown statements. Cladeal832 (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree the vast majority of other related articles use Hesse-Kassel JLIBPB (talk) 23:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First contributions from this editor after a six-plus month break. JPG-GR (talk) 23:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Kassel is the name use in English for the city. Disagree with silly prejudice against non-Anglophones. Think there have been many more good reasons for Kassel compared with CasselTodkvi5832 (talk) 02:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notice that, in the Google Scholar search, the Journal of Modern History, the leading journal of European history, uses "Hesse-Kassel". So, among my books, do John Merriman's A History of Modern Europe, a standard textbook; James Sheehan's German History 1770-1866, the standard English-language work on that period of German history; McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, a standard work on early modern diplomatic history; and various others. That is also the name used by Encyclopedia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia. It is also essentially true that while the translated name "Hesse" remains in general use in English for the region, the anglicized "Cassel" is very rarely used, and the city is normally called "Kassel." It is not wikipedia's job to create uniformity when the usage itself is not uniform. And the standard usage at the beginning of the 21st century is, indeed, "Hesse-Kassel," and not either "Hesse-Cassel" or "Hessen-Kassel." john k 21:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Also: looking at JSTOR searches, the American Historical Review (the main American historical journal), as well as the Sixteenth Century Journal and the German Studies Review use "Hesse-Kassel", all in recent articles. The only title match for "Hesse-Cassel" is from the Journal of Economic History. Also note that many of the results for "Hesse-Cassel" in the Google Scholar search come from older sources - one is from 1912. Cladeal832 (talk) 04:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose For the same reasons as before, but this time with the additional reason that the proposer of the move is a vote canvasser, who may be employing either sockpuppets or meatpuppets in an attempt to vote-stack. The subject of this article was never known as "Hesse-Kassel" and was always known as "Hesse-Cassel". I see no reason to alter their surname to a modern neologism, when the spelling that they used themselves is perfectly consistent with an accepted norm. DrKiernan (talk) 08:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for another personal attack. I don't use sock-puppets, and no I don't canvass for votes. Just that you stated you were a librarian and use that creditial to state that Hesse-Cassel is used more often, but solely for an FYI thing, just wanted to let you know about this other information that know realize you must have already ready and ignored from the Talk:Hesse-Kassel. I didn't even ask for you to vote, let alone which way to vote, which is requirement of canvassing. Show that other editors make actual notice that one the "more coherant" arguement requirement for a move, the points I have brought up are actual better. This exactly why Britannica is not affair of Wikipedia. They would never spelt Cassel for one article and use Kassel for the same person's sibling. Of the nearly 50 article titles and over one thousand articles that use it, only 7 use Hesse-Cassel in just the title so pretty sign of wider consensus including Category:House of Hesse-Kassel. Also note that 1911 edition Britannica gives "Hesse-Cassel" while the current one uses "Hesse-Kassel". If Britannica is able to update, surely Wikipedia will too. Cladeal832 (talk) 15:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Still Agree think new admins ought to be used to objectively look over this. Fear that opinions not made admins will not be counted nor are admin willing to be objective. Hesse-Kassel ought to link up with Hesse-Kassel. JLIBPB (talk) 14:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

66.185.217.73 (talk): This anonymous user is an IP in Ontario, Canada and shows a distinctive editing pattern of no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel.

User:Cladeal832 shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They also edit from Ontario IP addresses[1].

User:MeanLevels shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They are also interested in Ontario related subject matter[2].

User:JLIBPB shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. They are also interested in Ontario-related subject matter[3].

User:Todkvi5832 shows a distinctive editing pattern of few to no edit summaries and a large number of edits to nobility articles, including those of Hesse-Cassel. The username ends in the same three letter abbreviation as Cladeal832.

All five have "!voted" at least once in related move debates and occasionally edit each others' comments: Talk:Princess Louise Caroline of Hesse-Cassel [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]. DrKiernan (talk) 14:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So this is Kiernan's way of "consensus" and "hashing it out". Geez louise, what does this have to do with Hesse-Cassel or Hessel-Kassel exactly? Are you really that unwilling to adapt. Britannica did? How come you never wonder why all these source starting using Hesse-Kassel? Cladeal832 (talk) 14:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hesse-Cassel or Hesse-Kassel

possibly foolishly, I have re-opened the C-or-K naming dispute at Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel#Proposed move (3). If you have a strong opinion either way as to whether we should use the C form or the K form in the articles in question, please express it there. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 09:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in process

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RFC bot 09:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]