Talk:Fourth Rutte cabinet

Opposition Party and Leader =

Please be advised that the 'Opposition Party' and 'Opposition Leader' fields in the Infobox government cabinet template are intended to be filled in for cabinets that have a formal Parliamentary Opposition. Frequently, but not exclusively, in the Westminster system.

While this mistake is understandable since the leader of the largest non-cabinet party is occasionally informally referred to as the opposition leader, it's not an official designation and those fields shouldn't be filled in for Dutch cabinets in order to avoid giving one party undue weight in the eyes of wiki readers unaware of this fact. Especially because the largest non-cabinet party in parliament is usually still a minority of the opposition and their leader does not speak as a representative for the entire opposition the way the official opposition leader in a formal parliamentary opposition does.

I've fixed this issue on the other pages for Dutch cabinets as well. Robrecht (talk) 21:35, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Sidebars and tables

There are a lot of sidebars and tables, which creates a lot of white space.. Dajasj (talk) 12:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

"Cabinet" or "government"

@Bart Terpstra In the context of the Netherlands, as in many other parliamentary systems, the word "government" is understood in the narrow sense, referring to "the King and the Ministers", as defined by article 42.1 of the Constitution. It does not comprise other parts of the political system such as the judiciary. Luxorr (talk) 09:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

pppppfffff, I don't know how i feel about that.

You might be technically correct, but I would read it wrong, which implies others might read it wrong.

And the King did not go back and forth on the issue, he stayed out of it afaik.

So i would prefer more specific language were it helps.

But I'll go neutral on this. Bart Terpstra (talk) 09:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

See definitions at Parlement.com, in line with 42.1 of the constitution :

cabinet

ministers and secretaries of state

government

king and ministers.

Suggestion, stick to correct terminology, remove 'government' from lede, link to Cabinet_of_the_Netherlands, just like Third_Rutte_cabinet Uwappa (talk) 11:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, "cabinet" would make more sense for the lede. Luxorr (talk) 13:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Done. Uwappa (talk) 13:40, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Overlinking

@Bart Terpstra Some of the changes of your reverts are fine by me, but I take issue with some reverts. Allow me to clarify my edits.

• Some of the links have little relevance to the topic of the text, which should be avoided, as per MOS:OL. These include Turning a blind eye, Dutch language, English language, Quality of life, Equal opportunity, Scalability and Plurality (voting).
• Some of the links are "easter eggs", bringing the reader to a page different to what its label would intuitively suggest. This, again, should be avoided, as per MOS:EGG. This includes [[Dutch farmers' protests|farmers]] and [[Neoliberalism|Rutte's style of politics]].
• Furthermore, your revert brought back some language mistakes, such as "dutch" and "basis beurs". "200 million euro", too, is incorrect; currencies are commonly written in plural form (see Budget of the European Union#2021–2027 period, for example).

Luxorr (talk) 12:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

• I have a motivation for each of these

• the government "looked away", drawing from the same metaphor as "turning a blind eye", but i couldn't fit it into the sentence in a way that made that clear.
• I link these languages, as i believe linking some, but not the others gives undue preference when put together in a list like that. I'm willing to compromise and remove English, but not Dutch.
• quality of life, equal opportunity and plurality are frequently misunderstood and, imho, are not in the same category of general understanding as vehicle, aircraft, violence, river or education.

• If they are easter eggs, i will expand them to the full text form, as i think it's relevant to understanding the political climate for someone who is not from the Netherlands, in comparison to easter egg examples, which are unnecessary.
• With unspecific numbers, euro is preferred. Maybe the best way to avoid the entire discussion is to just replace it with €

Bart Terpstra (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I second @Bart Terpstra's position and feel that what was mentioned is unambigious and does not need a link to explain or help the reader understand the concept. There is always a challange when trying to communicate in english terms from a foriegn language and carry the same meaning and I believe this article has its share of challanges. Jurisdicta (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

oh, btw, "has been", rather than "was" because it's technically still ongoing until the next cabinet. Bart Terpstra (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, here are some more suggestions:

• Now that the text has been changed to "the subsequent turning of a blind eye by previous cabinets", the link is no longer necessary. It is simply a common figure of speech with no substantive relevance to the topic.
• I think the phrase "scale capacity up or down" is unambiguous enough to make the link unnecessary.
• The phrase with the link to Plurality (voting) could be rephrased to "...bringing to a close more than thirteen years of his leadership of the VVD as the country's largest party".

Luxorr (talk) 14:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

What's the reading level of a reader supposed to be again, because the idea of scaling was kind of vague in my mind when i was that young?

The rest i agree with. Bart Terpstra (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

you could argue Wikipedia itself does not properly understand scaling, haha. Bart Terpstra (talk) 15:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

No Fracking in the Groningen gas field

I've changed the article and removed the remarks about fracking having caused the earthquakes in Groningen. The linked article (NRC, 8-Oct-2022) also does not mention fracking. It is about an earthquake that took place in October last year (2022) and continues about the parliamentary audit that took place about the decisions the government took on natural gas production in Groningen. So without an article specifically stating that fracking caused the earthquakes in Groningen the article should not mention fracking. In any case, fracking is used for liberating natural gas from shale. The source rock in the Groningen field is sandstone, that is sufficiently porous by itself such that fracking does not add anything. The wikipedia article Groningen gas field does not mention fracking either. I admit that it is a minor point in an article about the fall of this cabinet, but it is still good to understand that fracking was never part of the political discussions around the Groningen gas field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.108.4.230 (talk) 08:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, fracking is apparently used in the Netherlands, but in a different way that is not so controversial as in the US. See here. Dajasj (talk) 12:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

But this article suggests that it is not used in Groningenveld. I will remove it for now. Dajasj (talk) 12:57, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

With fracking removed there is no combination anymore after: "but a combination of ..." Uwappa (talk) 03:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)