Talk:Fort Boise

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. --dashiellx (talk) 11:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thomas McKay

• "Fort Boise, erected originally by Thomas McKay in the fall of 1834 to meet the challenge offered by Fort Hall farther up Snake River, stood on the east bank of the Snake where the Boise flowed in. Originally McKay's private venture (with a guarantee, October 14, 1834, that the Hudson's Bay would cover any losses), the new fort definitely became a company post by 1836." http://www.idahohistory.net/Reference%20Series/0062.pdf

• "Fort Boise was built by Thomas McKay in the fall of 1834 to meet the challenge offered by Fort Hall. McKay had the backing and support of the Hudson's Bay Company for his venture. By 1836, the latter obtained control of the new post and it remained a Hudson's Bay post until abandonment in 1854." http://www.idahohistory.net/OTftboise.html

From what I gather from other sources is that McKay, a long time HBC employee and step son-in-law of John Mclaughin boss of the HBC in the North west, was working as a private contractor and built Fort Boise on his own initiative. Have no knowledge of the busines agreement. Tinosa (talk) 14:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, this explains my confusion and recent edits. The book I've been reading makes it clear that McLoughlin had Fort Boise established as an immediate counter to Fort Hall, and that the strategy (new post halfway between your nearest and your rival's) was one McLoughlin had learned while with the North West Company and used to counter the Hudson's Bay Company before the 1821 merger. It worked and the Americans were forced out of the Snake Country in 1836-37, and McLoughlin bought out the entire region. In short, it sounds like whatever the details about how Fort Boise was first built (private venture, ie, money), it was McLoughlin's agenda and had HBC financial guarantee from the start. I'll try to make this idea clearer, with source, tomorrow perhaps. Pfly (talk) 04:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Made the edits. Will write more here in a bit-- gotta run atm. Pfly (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, a quick summary of the edit made. First, I noted and used the abbreviations HBC and NWC since the full names get so clunky when mentioned over and over. Second, I tried to write a kind of compromise between sources: most sources seem to credit the HBC and/or McLoughlin for the establishment of Fort Boise, but some credit Thomas McKay; and this one and this one (same website for both however) say it a private venture of McKay's, but with at least some HBC support. So I tried to phrase it sort of between the two ideas. Third, it seems like Thomas McKay was an interesting person. He was definitely an important and experienced employee of the HBC, as well as the older NWC and others. McKay had long led the HBC's Snake Country brigades, which routinely trapped southern Idaho clear to Wyoming and north Utah, so it would make sense that he both knew about Fort Hall early on (which he apparently did, so I mentioned and sourced that) and was a logical choice for building a rival post. Apparently he had retired in 1833 but McLoughlin called him back into service for at least a couple years. Perhaps that is why the venture was technically private instead of being fully HBC at first. Anyway, will try to write a short bio page about McKay, he deserves one (especially because it is tricky finding sources, given the many notable Thomas McKays in history and today). Finally, for all these reasons, I changed the phrase "...took control of the fort..." to "operated...". Taking control has connotations of a hostile takeover, or taking control from a rival. Pfly (talk) 01:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Another version. "Fort Hall" Frank Robertson. 1966: According to this author McKay and his brigade was in attendance at the rendezvous on Hams Fork in 1834 and accompanied Wyeth with a group of inexperienced trappers, two botanist,the missionary Jason Lee and his large herd of cattle to the location of the future Fort Hall. At a celebration of the completion of the stockade, one of McKays men was killed in a horse race and Lee conducted a service. McKay, his brigade, the missionaries, and the cattle left for Oregon. At Three Island Crossing the group split. The largest portion of the brigade traveled North West to the upper Boise to collect a cache of furs. They were accompanied by missionaries and the cattle. They crossed the Snake well North of the future Fort Boise and then over the Blues to Vancouver. Meanwhile McKay and his remaining men traveled West to construct Fort Boise. About a week after McKay left, Wyeth and the two botanist left for Oregon. They stopped at McKays farm in Oregon for rest and a change of horses and were told that McKay had not returned and was still in the mountains. At least part of this story can be verified here: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mmarch.html (see Townsend & Wyeth).

Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how McKay and McLoughlin could have communicated considering the time and distance.Tinosa (talk) 02:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The Townsend Narrative is available at Google Books, I cited it as: Thwaites, Reuben Gold (2007) [1904]. Early Western Travels, 1748-1846. Reprint Services Corporation. pp. pp. 201-202, 230–231. ISBN 9780781264549. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) online at Google Books, for the bit reading "Thomas McKay's Snake Country brigade was trapping far to the east and met the party sent by Wyeth to select a site and built Fort Hall. McKay returned to Fort Vancouver and informed McLoughlin about the American acitivity." (actually I should move the footnote, the informing of McLoughlin is not specifically mentioned, just that McKay was leaving for Fort Vancouver.. I'll fix that now). Much of the story you mention is in that book, although there isn't anything about McKay after he left the future site of Fort Hall. When I read on p. 230: "On the 30th of July [1834], Mr. McKay and his party left us for Fort Vancouver", I made the perhaps unwarranted guess that McKay did return to Fort Vancouver, but then was apparently back at the Boise River in "the fall" (October? November?).

I agree that it's hard to believe the speed of travel it would have required, but as I've read more about these brigade leaders I've been repeatedly amazed at the distances they traveled, often arriving somewhere only to turn around and go back right away. The trip to Fort Vancouver could have been fast, being downriver (not sure if they canoed through Hells Canyon or not, but still, once past that the trip to Fort Vancouver might only take a week or so). One of the other books I cited (Mackie, Richard Somerset (1997). Trading Beyond the Mountains: The British Fur Trade on the Pacific 1793-1843. Vancouver: University of British Columbia (UBC) Press. ISBN 0-7748-0613-3. online at Google Books) is quite good. It has a long section detailing how the Snake brigades operated, on pages 102-103 Mackie says the brigade was sent out annually from Fort Vancouver, and returned there. They were usually a fairly motley group led by "a single seasoned officer, often an old Northwesterner". And that "a party might be obliged... to winter in [the Snake Country], some numbers of it return to Fort Vancouver at the fall, with the produce of the season's hunt, and report progress; and return to the camp with a reinforcement of necessary supplies." Also, even if the HBC didn't know about the plan to built Fort Hall specifically, they knew about the American Rendezvous system and had decided by 1833 to use the Snake brigade to "crash the Americans' annual party".

Anyway, it is all rather complicated in the details, especially the closer I look into specific events. I don't know for sure whether McKay went from future Fort Hall in July, reached Fort Vancouver, and then was back at the mouth of the Boise River by "fall". But even though the speed of travel seems very fast I can at least believe he could have done so. Still you mentioned "Wyeth and the two botanist left for Oregon. They stopped at McKays farm in Oregon for rest and a change of horses and were told that McKay had not returned and was still in the mountains," and some other bits that aren't in the Townsend Narrative. So I'm not quite sure about exactly what happened. Since most sources I've come across credit McLoughlin, or at least the HBC, for founding Fort Boise, I figured that should figure in the article, tempered with the idea of McKay doing it on his own. But I'm open to whatever might shed some light on this little mystery. My comments above were just trying to explain my thinking, not that I'm married to it. I'll look into the Wyeth sources at that link you posted. Just to complicate matters, Mackie says that Francis Ermatinger "transformed the HBC's Snake Party" in 1833-34 from one focused on trapping to one aimed at attending the American Rendezvous gatherings and trading for furs with better trade goods and lower prices than the American traders could afford, ie, "crashing the party". If this was happening in 1833-34 as well as McKay's expedition, and Wyeth's, plus missionaries and cattle and so on.. well... could be a complex bit of history. Still I'll look for more-- if nothing else I'm amazing at the scope and scale of the Snake brigades. I only recently learned about them. Plus they had another annual long distance brigade, also based at Fort Vancouver, which went south to California clear to the San Francisco Bay area. These people were hardcore. Tomorrow I might manage to create a page for Thomas Mckay himself. Pfly (talk) 05:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

the more you read about these guys the more amazed you'll be about how "hardcore" they were....the same is true of the early gold-mining prospectors/explorers in the colonial years (see Francis Jones Barnard, although his story isnt' as fleshed out as it could be in that article). "Epic" as an adjective for their journeys/adventures is an understated term...as for the Snake River brigade, I think there was a portage or a detour around Hell's Canyon, in the mountains on its eastern side via other rivers/valleys; I remember coming across it in refs while plotting rivers/prominence chains in that area for bivouac. The Yerba Buena (SF) brigade didn't have quite so hard of a route, albeit longer, but both brigades were large affairs.....in some US history articles it's always curious/odd to see them described as "trappers", as if they were isolated mountain men going on their own; no, they were large parties like the New Caledonioa Brigade and the much larger York Factory Express, and "traders" is the more apt descriptor. Interesting about the Rendezvous (the mountain man rendezvous still does on BTW, I'll see if I can dig up a site on the modern gathering, though it's not relevant to this article or old-fur-trade history).

Snake Fort

For people with an interest in this article may I suggest the following book: Bird, Annie Laurie (1990). "Old Fort Boise". Parma, Idaho: Old Fort Boise Historical Society. OCLC 962624.

It seems Mrs. Bird, as a reprepresenative of the Idaho Historical Society, received 15, June 1934 a document from the HBC titled " Manuscript History of Fort Boise"

Unforunately, Mrs. Bird does not present the entire transcript, but only excerpts. Perhaps she cherry picked info to make a point, a story or it was difficult to interpret many of McLoughlin's correspondence directed to French speaking people such as Payette. The information that is provided shows that after leaving the missionaries at Three island Crossing, McKay traveled to the Boise and did not return to Fort Vancouver until late 1835. From the information provided by Bird concerning the HBC Manuscript, there is not even a hint that McLoughlin instructed McKay to establish "Snake Fort", the name McKay gave his fort, or "Fort Boise" the name the HBC gave McKay's "Snake Fort" when they obtained it in 1837. (7, May 1836) Letter from McLoughlin to his superiors at HBC (HBC Manuscript History, pp1-2) "The only reason we allow Mr. McKay [to] establish River Boisse is because Fort Hall draws the trade away from the Nez Perces..." (Bird: "Old Fort Boise" (pp34-35).

Mystery of Boise Idaho VA hospital.

I myself have been subject to this very odd situation. When driving up to the administrations building look closely,what do you see? Many people see it as a brick building with the white pillars and door...and then there are others that see it as a white smaller building with wood sideing and large white pillars and entrance.Which is it? I have been looking for old historical pictures of the buildings but havent had much luck.When I went to see a member of the administration team I asked her what color and shape the building was,after and odd look or two She discribed it as a square, white building.I told her thats what I belived too,but I had also seen it as a modern brick building.When we went out side for lunch I asked her what the building looked like she turned and almost fell down.The building was a modern but older looking brick building....we discussed for hours at lunch how odd what we had seen was.If any one eles has seen this please document it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.167.176.90 (talk) 21:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

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