Talk:Football in Scotland

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This article talks about England playing 1-1-8 in the first England Scotland game, but http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Seas1872-00/1872-73/M0001Sco1872.html suggests that they played 1-2-7. Jooler 09:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Revisions required

This article needs referencing and correcting.

Certainly dribbling was part of the English game prior to the first official international. The implication that the English were just running around the field hoofing the ball until the Scots came and taught them how to dribble is ridiculous. The assertion that Scotland invented the dribbling game should be removed. Or it would need to be heavily referenced to an independent academic source to be convincing (dribbling was definitely an important part of many of the english public school games and players were very skilled at it).

"Passing on" (forward passing) had been permitted by the FA rules by the time of first official international and it was the Scots who probably exploited this rule best with combination football. It is not fair to imply that there was no passing at all in the english game previously. Certainly this was part of some english school rules and even in the 1863 rules it states that passing should not happen with the hands. The assertion that Scotland were the only ones to think of passing needs to be modified. They were the ones who best saw the advantage in the law that allowed "passing on". But the law permitting forward passing had already been written.

Frankly if the Scottish tactics were so revolutionary why was the game a goal-less draw? This assertion needs to be toned down.

Similarly, both teams at the first offical international played what are essentially VERY attacking formations and this needs to be added in order to be fair. The Scottish formation was slightly more defensive, but was nothing like a 4-4-2 or whatever is preferred today.

I also think that the Brazilians should be consulted first before implying that they are just putting into practice what the scots deigned to teach them?

Obrigado. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.175.118 (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I DON'T THINK THAT FOOTBALL WAS TRADITIONALLY A HIGHLAND GAME... MORE LOWLAND AND THE ISLANDS. HENCE THE CORRECTIONS. JED — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.175.118 (talk) 17:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Obrigado, England had around 100 clubs engaged in Asscoiation football in 1872, Scotland had around 10, and only the Queen's Park players were considered competent enough in the code to play in the match. It was effectively Queen's Park v England in this match and the Glasgow Herald notes that the Scots were on average 2 stones lighter than their English counterparts. In a game of physical charging this statement is very notable. The English team were more skillful individually, were stronger and were faster. The Scots should have been overrun and heavily beaten - it is their tactics of team work and passing which held back a crack England side. The game is revolutionary in that it helps to forge a 'Scottish Style' of systematic passing and creates a 'football explosion' north of the border as new clubs are rapidly established. This 'systematic' style is taken into England by 'Scotch Professors' and latterly overseas by a host of British coaches and administrators.

The large number of forwards in the game provides an insight into the tactics at that time - the individualism of the England international side produced a 'pack' system based around backing up. The Queen's Park players are in pairs and are more spread out. They pass the ball to keep possession. As the rules evolve so do the playing systems, the 2-2-6 formation moves to 2-3-5, WM 3-3-4, 4-4-2 etc.

If the Brazilian style of game involves systematic passing and individual dribbling and the game was introduced by British pioneers like Thomas Donohoe, Charles Miller and Jock Hamilton (Brazil's first professional football coach) then there is a link unless you want to ignore the late 19th and early 20th centuries and just start Brazilian football history fromn 1958 onwards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.5.112 (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Needs photos

The page is looking better, but needs some photos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.172.237 (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Rugby football

re: quote below

Prior to 1863 there was just football and it came in endless varieties. After 1863 and the Association - Rugby split there was more than just football... For this reason I think that the adoption of Rugby football before 1863 is notable under "football"

The earliest evidence of the use of codified rules of any type of football in Scotland came in 1851 when rugby football was adopted by the Edinburgh Academy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.138.172.237 (talk) 08:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Straw Poll - on changing to Association football in Scotland

The Republic of Ireland football article has recently been changed to Association football in the Republic of Ireland. The attending voters had a chance to use the common Irish-media-used 'disambiguator' of "Soccer" (ROI of course has Gaelic football too), but instead they chose "Association". It was pushed through on an "over 60% percent consensus". There is a vote going on now to change the article to "Football (soccer) in the Republic of Ireland". But even now "Association" is winning out - and the most common reason given to keep it is that the 'main article' is called Association football - and so other articles must keep in line.

But for this 'conformity' to make proper sense, it would mean that the other national team articles like Scotland's would have to fall into line too. Some voters have openly expressed a desire for this to happen. Where will it end - with the national teams?

I think people here should be alerted to the tide of change that was first started with the move to Association football, and that a collection of UK nation 'straw polls' would be an interesting barometer for us all. (I have straw-polled this at England, Wales and Northern Ireland too).

Note on "canvassing"

Supporters of the word "Association" are very critical of "WP:CANVASSING on this subject, and it is my opinion that they prefer their votes to be tight and guarded: and I can see no bias involved in informing all the UK nations at all. I am risking this accusation as I believe this vote is of major importance to all national team articles: I have given valid reasons for this above - so please restore this poll if it changed or removed, and explain why it is important in your edit note. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Would you like to see this article CHANGED to Association football in Scotland? Or would you like to KEEP it as it is?

Please vote "Change" or "Keep" in bold, and sign.

• Keep. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. --Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Traditional 'Anglo Centric' view

While newspapers may have over exaggerated the Vocabula 'discovery' in 2006 the overwhelmingly negative 'interpretation' of the book's contents within this article now place it to the other extreme. Whilst taking into account the fact that it is a latin book written in 17th century Scotland (which has some translations contained within its passages) this unbalanced account tries to conjure up the image of rugby football (despite the fact that the 'carrying game' in Scotland dates only to the 19th century) Rugby reaches Scotland's private schools in the early 1850s while 'folk' or 'mob' games of hand ba' like that at Jedburgh were originally street football and evolved (or were forced to change) into handball during the 19th century.

The game at Kirkwall was also street football up until 1850 - the growing numbers transformed a kicking game into the large scrum that exists today. There are no accounts in Scotland of matches described as 'football' involving the ball being 'carried' prior to the 19th century unless you try to 'convert' Wedderburn's account of Pila Pedalis (Football) from Vocabula. Ball games involving handling did exist in Scotland but were not called football - 'Caiche' being perhaps the best known example.

Football was rough in 1630s Scotland just as it was rough under the 'civilised' Association game of the 1870s where heavy charging persisted much to the chagrin of the Scottish FA. Use of hands (if Vocabula does indeed suggest this) is not a great issue either as the early Association code of the 1860s also permitted limited use of hands. What is interesting are the terms - 'you keep goal' (implying a goalkeeper in the game), 'Strike it (or kick it) here' is a command for the ball to be played from one player to another. If the term is Pila Pedalis (football) presumably it was kicked and if the game was caiche then persumably it would have been thrown. 'Strike (kick) the ball back' implies the ball being played back from one player to another - unless of course it is inconceivable that participants in the 17th century were unable to kick a ball from one player to another? 'Take hold of the ball' is open to interpretation (it can mean 'take possession' as well as to physically grab at the ball). If it is the latter then this would just as easily make it an ancestor of the regulated rule for fair catch / limited use of hands of the Association game of the 1860s. While the current interpretation in the article goes out of its way to highlight the rougher form of the game (which is perfectly suited to 17th century football) and to the statements like 'Drive that man back' (pushing, pulling, hacking and charging existed in regulated games of the 1860s too) it of course overlooks the elements of skill noted in the book - for example 'he is an excellent ball man'.

Having attempted to 'rubbish' the original arguments behind Vocabula's link as an ancestor to football as a kicking game it then points to English public schools like Eton and Harrow as the civilising influence in Scottish football. This portrays the traditional anglo centric viewpoint of the development of the game and overlooks what was actually happening in Scotland. Structured games were also being played at leading private schools in Scotland as well as at the universities. John Hope, who founded the earliest known football club in 1824, was an Edinburgh University student who had attended the High School of Edinburgh! Rugby schools like Merchiston converted to the handling style in the 1850s. While Eton and Harrow were certainly influential within London circles and were amongst the first to create written down rules, as opposed to the semi structured forms of football which relied on a basic understanding of how to play (unwritten rules), there were other influences developing across the UK. There is no mention either of Hope's Edinburgh rules of 1854 which clearly defines football as a dribbling game or indeed of the small matter of his aforementioned football club which was created in 1824!

The statement, above, that the Edinburgh Academy's rugby rules of 1851 were the first evidence of codified rules in Scotland is not strictly accurate either. John Hope was experimenting with rules within his football club as early as 1833 and noted down a number of them which have survived the passage of time and now exist at the National Archives of Scotland.

In relation to Scotland's contribution to the passing style of game which evolved in the 1870s there are a lot of contemporary references made in the wikipedia article (Scotland section) entitled 'Combination Game'. This also explains the clash of styles between England and Scotland and the fact that the Scots played together in pairs to counter the runs (and charges) of the individual England players who were heavier and faster. This is the reason why the first international ended in a draw - had the Scots tried to compete 'man for man' with the individualistic dribbling style of England they would have been out muscled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.101.56 (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Opening Lines to football In Scotland

I started the earlier thread by focusing on the attack on Vocabula - having properly read the opening line to 'Football in Scotland' it has to be said that significant parts of this entry are completely wrong. As mentioned earlier football in Orkney and in the Borders was originally football (ie kicking the ball) which changed into handball in the 19th century due to a number of factors. The opening lines are completely wrong and appear to have been written without proper research. Football was played widely throughout Scotland and many examples can be given from the 15th century onwards. It appears that much of the text has been written to play down Scotland's links to the development of football as a 'kicking' and 'dribbling' form of game - there is completely no foundation to portray 'football' in Scotland as a handling game between the 15th and 18th centuries. Large parts of this article will need to be re-written to give a properly researched account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.101.56 (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Death of Willie Clark

I note that we have no article on Willie Clark (1918-2008).

• Obituary at The Scotsman

--Mais oui! (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Demise of Rangers

For reasons that are unclear, the demise of Rangers in 2011 is not mentioned. The outcome of this saga is obviously not yet known, but thus far, one thing seems clear : Rangers is no more, and Rangers "newco" is a 3rd division club. What will happen in the future ... Aidan Karley (talk) 09:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I came here hoping for clarification about whether the old Rangers is the same club as the new Rangers. The article says that Rangers have won 55 league championships, implying that they are, but when I checked the source I found it was an article about the old Rangers's 54th Championship and never mentions the 55th one. ACCH (talk) 20:36, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Systematic vandalisation of Scottish categories

Does nobody here keep an eye on Category:Football in Scotland and its super- and sub-categories? This idiocy is from way back in April:

• https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Category:Football_in_Scotland&diff=prev&oldid=604733946

It is part of a very widespread, sustained, long-term programme of systematic vandalisation of Scottish categories, both by registered users and by ip adresses. --Mais oui! (talk) 09:33, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2020 and 14 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mshill64.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

2021-22 Inverness CT F.C. Season turned into a redirect?

Is there any reason why the 2021-22 Inverness season has been turned into a redirect link back to the club's page?

Been working on the page for however long, and then all of a sudden it's been turned into a redirect for no good reason.

There was nothing wrong with the page, and it was all ready to be updated when updates came out i.e. managers, fixtures, transfers etc.

Any insight, and can it possibly be revived to what it was?

Cheerso, 2A02:C7F:CED:0:5820:98C:723B:405E (talk) 11:20, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Done. The edit was changed into a redirect because you had added very few references to the article (WP:V). This is an important policy - we need to to be able to justify what we are writing with reference to what third party sources are saying. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:13, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Private school toffs (think Boris Johnson! lol have you *seen* him attempt to play football?!) attending Eton and Harrow "civilised the game"?! Don't make me spray my coffee on the monitor!

• • • My god...; I take it that the fine person responsible for that massive *howler* is not even going to do us the courtesy of pointing out how that translated into; you know, *how Scottish clubs, such as they were in the early 19th century, played the game*...just gonna leave it hanging their for the reader to do the work of connecting the multifaceted nexus.

For goodness sake, it is hardly a secret that one Scottish club; One Scottish club from Glasgow, back in the mid to late 19th century by the name of Queen's Park F.C. is mainly responsible for introducing the passing game and other such 'civilising' factors. The above user 81.148.101.56 said far more than I am willing to get into on this Wikipedia talk page; sufficed to say I am going to sort out the page when I have time. Help would be appreciated, thanks. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 16:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)