Talk:Flitwick Manor

For the interested

The Strange but True? clip is on Youtube. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Hmm

How are we on using some of these ghost-books as sources for actual history? Like Damiens book. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:52, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Gronk Oz - I think some of the sources are still pretty shaky; The Spooky Isles website looks particularly dodgy and user-generated and Haunted Rooms doesn’t look much better. And I suspect Gronk Oz and I may disagree as to how “encyclopaedic” adding material on reputed hauntings is. That said, they have gone to the trouble of searching out some at least half-way decent sources, so I thank them for that. I can’t say how reliable they are, but Amberley (Damien O’Dell’s publisher) does produce some decent history books. KJP1 (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't have full access to the books which would allow me to check how suitable these are as historical sources. As they are now, they are just being used to support the claim that there are widely circulated ghost stories: three books on local folklore that all mention these stories sounds sufficient for that purpose to me. The Web sources in particular as "dodgy" as you say, and I would not have any objection to removing them. They do support the notion that the paranormal angle is used to promote the hotel, and if they are removed then I think that part of the text should also go.

We may not differ as much as you think about the "encyclopaedic" nature of ghost stories. In general I'm not a fan, since most old buildings can make similar claims. But when I looked for sources, there they were - and Wikipedia is meant to reflect what the sources say. I worry that in its current form it gives undue weight, due to having its own section. I would prefer if it were incorporated into a larger section on something like "Local culture" (if it had any wider influence). --Gronk Oz (talk) 23:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I was about to remove "Haunted Rooms", but then I also thought that it was good for "sometimes been used for publicity", it seems reasonable to assume that the hotel is "in on it." I was reminded of the Falcon Rest article (Category:Reportedly haunted locations in Tennessee). I'm a little disappointed they don't seem have a better official webpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Gronk Oz - Have tried a bit more of a tidy, a re-formatting, and the addition of a few more cites. Much of the History still needs work - the reference to a British telephone directory being only the most obvious weakness. Much of the section remains completely uncited, so I've left the tag on. Many thanks for your interest, it is undoubtedly in better shape than it was. KJP1 (talk) 11:07, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:21, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Fwiw, I wish you hadn't started using the harvard (?) WP:REFVAR. My personal preference is templates via reftoolbar, and I think many editors, perhaps especially new editors, find it easier to work with. For example "Named references" is very handy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:39, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Added the place at Reportedly_haunted_locations_in_the_United_Kingdom#England. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:42, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm used to that reference style, so I'm happy. I think the subtle change to a lower-level heading and combining into a single paragraph is surprisingly good at reducing the visual impact of the haunted bit. I'm almost sorry to see the reference to the British telephone directory go: it always gave me a laugh, but WP isn't supposed to be enjoyable, is it. Some of the history can be sourced from the Historic England listing: I will have a go at seeing where I can apply it.--Gronk Oz (talk) 11:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about the sfn. I've used it so long, I really struggle with the alternatives. If others find it cumbersome, I'm pleased to covert any style they want to use. KJP1 (talk) 15:09, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Events around Anne Fisher

There is a discrepency between what is currently in the (unreferenced) History section:

When Dell died in 1764 he left Flitwick Manor to Anne Fisher, his goddaughter, but as she was only seven years old her father Jeffrey Fisher was the proprietor until she turned twenty-one... Anne married James Hesse of Edmonton in 1778 but he died in 1783 and in 1789 she married George Brooks (1741–1817).

and what is in the Historic England reference:

Anne Fisher inherited the house on a marriage settlement with George Hesse and following his death she married George Brooks in 1783.

So either she inherited in 1764 at age 7 (and got control in 1776 at age 21), or in 1778 when she married Hesse, whose first name was either George or James. And later she married George Brooks in either 1789 or 1783.--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:06, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The Bedfordshire Archive (Ref 3) says she married firstly James Hesse and then, in 1789, George Brooks. It also says Jeremy Fisher acquired a life interest "in right of his daughter Anne", but doesn't say when. Such are the problems of poorly-sourced articles! KJP1 (talk) 11:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The, now recovered, Cite 4 shows that James Hesse died in 1779. KJP1 (talk) 14:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I’ve also now recovered Cite 2, so they might help. KJP1 (talk) 14:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)