Talk:Fleance

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fleance/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Thank you, Wrad, for working so hard on these Shakespeare articles! This corner of Wikipedia is becoming so much better because of you!

• I don't know if there is more research that could be done on Fleance. For example, do any of the many volumes on Macbeth itself have a few stray lines on Fleance? The "Analysis" section just seems a little thin right now.
  • I'll dig around. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Whew! Done. Although now it probably needs another copy-edit. Wrad (talk) 23:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Looks good to me. --Xover (talk) 00:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Is there an image or quote you could put at the top of the article?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Fleance and Banquo are mentioned in Holinshed's Chronicles. - Explain to the reader unfamiliar with the Chronicles what they are. I don't think this information should only be mentioned in the lead, as the lead is supposed to be a summary of what is in the rest of the article.
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• In the Chronicles Fleance flees to Wales and marries Nesta verch Gruffydd, daughter of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, the last native Prince of Wales. - Why is he fleeing?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Why is Macbeth jealous? Awadewit (talk) 04:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
      • I tried a different tack. Revert if you don't like it. --Xover (talk) 21:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

• The Stuarts used their connection with Fleance and his marriage to the Welsh princess to claim a genealogical link with the legendary King Arthur - Why? How did this help them?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• The story of Fleance as described in other sources does not appear in Shakespeare's play. - What other sources?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Marvin Rosenberg argued that the tension that exists between Fleance and Macbeth is made stronger by the fact that Macbeth has a child - Who is Rosenberg? A Shakespeare scholar?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Marvin Rosenberg argues that the tension that exists between Fleance and Macbeth is made stronger by the fact that Macbeth has a child: his motive is not just greed but also fatherly ambition - It is hard for the reader of this article to understand the greed part - we need a little more information on Macbeth's motivations. We haven't heard about greed yet - we have only heard about ambition.
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Some productions of Macbeth show this tenderness by having the title character frequently pat Fleance on the head, or attempt to do so, but be denied it when Fleance withdraws to his father. - sentence is hard to follow
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Scholars have interpreted this to mean that Banquo has been dreaming of murdering the king as Macbeth's accomplice in order to take the throne for his son, Fleance, as the Three Witches prophesied to him - I don't quite follow
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• They argue that Banquo is merely setting aside his sword for the night, but when Macbeth approaches, Banquo, having had dreams about Macbeth's deeds, takes back his sword as a precaution. - Explain more clearly - what deeds? Why does he need to take precautionary measures?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Why have you chosen to focus on these three screen versions? The choice seems a bit random.
  • Those are the only three I could find with scholarly commentary on Fleance specifically. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Macduff shoots Macbeth and takes the ring off Macbeth's finger. - What ring? Why?
  • fixed. Wrad (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm placing this article on hold as I am confident that these issues can be resolved in a short amount of time. Awadewit (talk) 02:15, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm passing this article. Awadewit (talk) 06:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Historia Gentis Scotorum and Fleance

Fleance and his father Banquo are both fictional characters apparently created by Hector Boece, whose Scotorum Historiae (1526-1527) was a source for Raphael Holinshed's Chronicles.

Hmm. This doesn't match my recollection, and the cited source looks like a popular press edition of four of Shakespeare's plays. Can we perhaps find a scholarly edition to cite this to? --Xover (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The source I just added covers it, actually. Paul, Henry N. Wrad (talk) 23:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

References

Shakespeare

Me gusta shekespeare —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.86.247 (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Fleance as a fictional character

Hi there, not sure how to fix this but Fleance DID exist as did his father. See The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland by Michael James Alexander Stewart. (page 40 and 41 and pages 44 and 45). Cheers Tania —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tania Roxborogh (talk • contribs) 23:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Macbeth's son

''Macbeth thematizes the rivalries between pairs of father and son: Banquo and Fleance, Macduff and his son, Macbeth and his. Theater expert Marvin Rosenberg argues that the tension that exists between Fleance and Macbeth is made stronger by the fact that Macbeth has a child: his motive is not just selfish striving, but also fatherly ambition. All that Macbeth does to Fleance and Banquo is for the sake of his own son. Some productions of Macbeth show this tenderness by having the title character attempt to pat Fleance on the head, when Fleance withdraws to his father's side.

The above paragraph, the first in the Analysis section, is problematic. Rosenberg is explicitly putting forward an alternative interpretation of Macbeth that posits that the title character has a son. There is no explicit mention in the play of such a son, and indeed, Macduff's line at 4.3.216, "He has no children," is often interpreted as referring to Macbeth.--Trystan (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

References

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GA concerns

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good article criteria because there are several uncited paragraphs throughout the article. Is anyone willing to address this concern, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Fleance

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

This article has uncited text, including entire paragraphs and statements attributed to people without citations. The lead could also use an update for formatting. Z1720 (talk) 16:59, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

• I might be able to help with this. I haven't been involved with the page previously, so far as I can remember. Some immediate thoughts I have are:
  • Is it right that the page should attempt to cover both the historical person and the Shakespearean character? Or are those two separate entities requiring two separate articles? If the latter my worry is that the historical one would be little more than a stub. Is there precedent for this kind of decision?
  • Is there a WP:WEIGHT issue in devoting so much of the article to the character rather than the historical figure? (In this regard I would venture a guess that MUCH more has been said in reliable sources about the fictional Fleance than the historical one.)
  • Is there a WP:WEIGHT issue in devoting so much of the article to Fleance's depiction in films, when he is equally - or moreso - a stage character?
  • I've quite a lot of sources on this so if @Z1720: you can give me an indication of which bits you consider to be unsourced or undersourced, I can start doing some fixing.
• Anyone have any thoughts on any of the above? AndyJones (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@AndyJones: Some answers:

• Probably two separate articles, though if the historical figure is not notable, then it can't get its own article.
• If the article focuses on the Shakespeare character, it doesn't need too much information about the historical figure.
• I don't think the article needs to have too much information about its various depictions, especially since Macbeth has been staged and depicted several times. Instead, it should focus on what academics have said about the character's role in the play.
• I have added cn tags per the GAR. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you. I'll take a look in the next day or so. Would you (or anyone) have any objection to me removing the whole paragraph beginning "Theatre scholar Marvin Rosenberg theorises..."? No doubt we could reliably source what Rosenberg says from his book. But we cannot reliably source from there that he is wrong, and why, which is what the article currently says, in Wikipedia's own voice. My conclusion is that it's WP:OR, and should go. AndyJones (talk) 12:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
• I've now acted on this. AndyJones (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  AndyJones, do you intend to continue working on the article? No worries if not. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I'd say probably not in a major way, but I will look through my sources again to see if I have anything which helps to address the issues raised here. If I don't repost here by 28th you can safely assume I concluded I had nothing new to say.

I miss Wrad! AndyJones (talk) 12:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Historical Fleance

PS to the conversation above, and influenced by it, I ordered a book about the historical Macbeth, and i've eventually got around to starting reading it. However I notice that Fleance isn't even mentioned in its index. So I think it's fair to say I won't be adding anything to this article in the near future. AndyJones (talk) 13:52, 6 December 2024 (UTC)