Talk:First-move advantage in chess/Archive 3
This is an archive of past discussions about First-move advantage in chess. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Chess has two players, White and Black
I have hatted the long, tedious, bad-faith discussions below now that the main problem editors have been blocked as sock-puppets. --JBL (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Long, bad-faith discussions involving users now blocked as sock-puppets |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
If the article has a section on perfect play, then it should explain the status of play for both White and Black (i.e. who wins, or a draw, or unknown). To not mention this is a serious deficiency in the article. I've elaborated slightly in this respect with references. (The other option is to remove any discussion of perfect play, since that is not the main theme of the article anyway).—MeixiangKazuki (talk) 07:34, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Yet another disruptive editFor goodness sake please stop inserting Stack Exchange! We do not source anything to forums or wikis per WP:UGC. Also, "consensus among many" is a tautology. Consensus does not mean unanimity, it means a clear majority. It is an accurate statement that the consensus among strong players and theorists is that a perfectly played game of chess would end in a draw. The Allis source does not address this question, and it's unclear whether the Nowakowski source does either (no page references are provided). Only the Shannon paper is relevant, and on page 3 he agrees that the game is most likely a draw. 222.153.250.135 (talk) 00:59, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
LithiumFlash You still haven't addressed the point - how is stackexchange a reliable source? Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:43, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
There's a difference between that and saying that they have long-debated on that. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:01, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
This is just going round in circles. Our options are:
222.153.250.135 (talk) 06:23, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Quale's right; discussion's toast. --IHTS (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
The arguments to change the sentence in question are deeply wrongheaded, and the proposed SE sources for it are ridiculous, and consensus here is unambiguously opposed to both the sources and changing that sentence. There are undoubtedly other improvements that could be made to this article, and the two WP:IDHT should find something else to do with their time. --JBL (talk) 12:39, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
References
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Almost nothing about computer chess? What a joke.
There's no reason for this pre-computer quotation and speculation. Let any good computer program have plenty of time per move, >15 minutes per move or whatever, and play itself to remove software biases. (The cited AlphaZero-Stockfish games were only 1 minute per move and are, therefore, irrelevant. Worse, it is fake news because (1) AlphaZero uses fast FPGAs (massive parallel computer) which could have run on the same hardware as Stockfish, just ~100x slower and (2) Stockfish wasn't really Stockfish but was, rather, a variant without an opening book!!) Perhaps bypass or remove or regulate the "random code" typically there to make different openings and keep games interesting. If they are NOT all wins for white, then the first-move advantage does not allow wins. Period. Done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasontaylor7 (talk • contribs) 20:26, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- This page is not a forum for discussing the subject of the article. If you are aware of any sources that publish the results of experiments like the one you describe, that would be interesting and useful and could be added to the article; but if you just want to rant, Wikipedia is not the right venue. --JBL (talk) 21:03, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- Larry Kaufman set Komodo and Leela Chess Zero on the opening in his recent book Kaufman's New Repertoire for Black and White. I put his conclusion in the article. Basically, White likely does not have a forced win, but if he begins 1.e4 and makes no mistakes he can consistently maintain the upper hand and force Black to be careful to hold a draw. Double sharp (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Result for the pieces or players?
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With the initiative, a player with white pieces can keep the opponent guessing and or force moves to his or her advantage which gives more opportunity to capture a piece or strategic advantage, but since a checkmate cannot be enforced with a Knight or a Bishop alone among a few other techniques like 3-fold repetition, stalemate etc., the player with black pieces can still play for a draw. The competition is unbiased and equal only when both the players take turns playing white and black pieces. So, one has to regard and insist a chess match as a pair of games with interchanged pieces for getting the correct measurement of the players' skill and not as a single game which is skewed slightly in favour of the player with white pieces. Overall, to the question, "Are white pieces winning more games in multiple pairs of games irrespective of the players?", the answer is "Yes." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.183.37 (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2019 (UTC) Win, lose or draw?It's a matter of priority: White plays to win or draw; Black plays to draw or win; both don't play to lose [unless Jesus is on board wanting self-crucifixion, but since He has already had it, He isn't going to ask for it again :)]. Chess is a long game involving psychological duress compounded by human failure. So, when plan A fails, plan B could work. Having plan A alone could be risky hit or miss eventuality. With advantage of initiative, White could dominate the board all through excepting for blunders or skillful play of opponent. While Black doesn't have advantage, it can frustrate the attempts at the opponent winning the game which could elicit a blunder, in which case it could even proceed with plan B for a win. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.76.38.29 (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC) |
The Lede v The Article...
The lede opens with the sentence, "The first-move advantage in chess is the inherent advantage of the player (White) who makes the first move in chess," which is a definitive declaration that White has an inherent advantage. However the article which follows then makes it quite clear that there is no definitively proven, inherent advantage for White, with many theorists and players - some of them former World Champions and 2 of them the greatest players of all time - disagreeing with the conjecture. The second sentence immediately starts to back down from the initial declaration by saying that "Chess players and theorists generally agree that White begins the game with some advantage." We've gone from a definitive, inherent advantage for White, to a wishy-washy general agreement about "some advantage." Even that is deceptive though because the implication that all chess players and all theorists agree on this advantage is patently false; as a full reading of the article demonstrates. The third sentence backs away even further and makes an unproven, cause and effect claim that the supposedly definitive, inherent advantage for White is proven by the statistics when in fact:
- 1. The statistics can be interpreted in a different way - as is invariably the case with statistics - to show that this definitive, inherent advantage leads to White winning a little more than a third of the time; which certainly doesn't support the claim of a definitive, inherent advantage at all.
- 2. As shown in the main body of the article, there are other possible explanations for the statistics, such as the definitive, inherent advantage for White being nothing more than an unfounded, self-fulfilling prophecy which is nothing more than players believing White has an advantage and having that unfounded bias affect their play.
The bottom line here is that it is by no mean proven that White has a definitive, inherent advantage and the article should reflect that, rather than starting with the assertion that White has an advantage - as though it is a fact, which it is not - and presenting contrary views as being dissenters; which they are not. You wouldn't start an article about Vaccination with a claim that it causes autism, then present the evidence that it doesn't as a dissenting view; an example I use because Vaccination is an excellent example of statistics being used to prove a cause and effect relationship where none actually exists, exactly as the statistics are used here to 'prove' White's advantage. Neither should this article - or any article for that matter - start by presenting an unproven claim as true, then provide evidence to the contrary as a dissenting view. If a conjecture is unproven then it should be presented as such, with evidence for and against it then presented equally so that the reader can make their own determination. Doing otherwise, as is the case with this article, immediately predisposes the reader to believe the unproven claim is factual, then biases the evidence so that the dissenting view must provide stronger evidence just to be equal; which is ironic, given the nature of the article!
- ;-)
A patient, dispassionate, objective reader will come away from this article with the understanding that there is no definitive proof that White has an advantage in Chess. However a less patient and objective person who only reads the first few sentences will come away with the erroneous viewpoint that White has an advantage in Chess. That viewpoint is unproven and therefore wrong and, as such, the article needs to change. FillsHerTease (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:47, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- I intend to start changing the article to reflect that White having an advantage is an unproven conjecture - with arguments on both sides - if no one objects. I don't want to waste my time if it's just going to be reverted obviously, so I will leave this for 1 week and if no one has objected I will start making updates after that. FillsHerTease (talk) 13:51, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. The lead did appear to over-state the case that White has a definite advantage, at least when judged by the available references. For the time being I slightly rephrased the opening statement, and added two citation-needed tags.—LithiumFlash (talk) 03:16, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- I don't agree. The article was better before your changes. The claims in the lede are more than adequately referenced in the detail sections of the article. Quale (talk) 05:45, 25 December 2017 (UTC) BTW, "drawn with best play" and "White has an advantage" are not mutually exclusive claims or in conflict with each other. The article explains this in detail. Quale (talk) 05:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- This article should not have statements synthesized by Wiki editors, and bold statements require reliable references. The article currently does not have any references to support the statement "...the consensus has been that a perfectly played game would end in a draw."—LithiumFlash (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- Really? Did you read the article? The First-move advantage in chess#Drawn with best play section has citations saying chess is a draw from Steinitz, Lasker, Capablanca, Fischer, Fine, Rowson, Adjoran, and Watson (also quoting Kasparov). If you're not going to read the article you should not edit it or tag it. Quale (talk) 07:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- The article expresses a sampling of other opinions but it is certainly not a consensus. The lead should not state that there is a consensus (chess being a draw) when there are already sections in the article expressing other possible endings of perfect play. The lead should be both concise, and accurate. It is very misleading to tell readers that there is consensus when in fact there is none.—LithiumFlash (talk) 05:36, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you don't understand what "consensus" is. Consensus does not require unanimity, and opinions held by a small minority do not prevent consensus. Also, you are just wrong here. Adams and Berliner thought White had a decisive advantage, but they knew that their opinions were in the minority and were against the consensus that the game is probably a draw. They recognized that there was a consensus, they didn't agree with it, and so they said so. Quale (talk) 05:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- The article expresses a sampling of other opinions but it is certainly not a consensus. The lead should not state that there is a consensus (chess being a draw) when there are already sections in the article expressing other possible endings of perfect play. The lead should be both concise, and accurate. It is very misleading to tell readers that there is consensus when in fact there is none.—LithiumFlash (talk) 05:36, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Really? Did you read the article? The First-move advantage in chess#Drawn with best play section has citations saying chess is a draw from Steinitz, Lasker, Capablanca, Fischer, Fine, Rowson, Adjoran, and Watson (also quoting Kasparov). If you're not going to read the article you should not edit it or tag it. Quale (talk) 07:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
- This article should not have statements synthesized by Wiki editors, and bold statements require reliable references. The article currently does not have any references to support the statement "...the consensus has been that a perfectly played game would end in a draw."—LithiumFlash (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
- I don't agree. The article was better before your changes. The claims in the lede are more than adequately referenced in the detail sections of the article. Quale (talk) 05:45, 25 December 2017 (UTC) BTW, "drawn with best play" and "White has an advantage" are not mutually exclusive claims or in conflict with each other. The article explains this in detail. Quale (talk) 05:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. The lead did appear to over-state the case that White has a definite advantage, at least when judged by the available references. For the time being I slightly rephrased the opening statement, and added two citation-needed tags.—LithiumFlash (talk) 03:16, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
And while I'm here, Stack Exchange is not a reliable source for claims about chess. It's essentially a wiki and has the qualities of a self-published source. Stack Exchange answers may cite published sources to bolster the writer's argument, and those sources may be useful in Wikipedia. But really I wish drive-by editors would stop trying to fix this article because it ain't broke. Nearly every "improvement" to this article in the past four years has made it worse. I'm not saying the article is perfect and can't be improved, but virtually none of the people who have felt compelled to put their stamp on this article is as knowledgeable about the subject or as skilled a writer as the original author. The result is that their help has not helped.
Also, once again, please read the article before trying to improve it. There is already a section in this article on solving chess, and it is titled "Solving chess". Astonishing, I know, you could never be expected to find that. That section is well cited. The lede is supposed to summarize the article, so don't put new claims in the lede. Look to the article body and summarize it in the lede. If something about solving chess needs to go in the lede, it should be a very brief summary of the most important parts of the Solving chess section. But while we're here, the lede is already a good summary of the article and it doesn't need to say anything about solving chess. First, it's obvious in context that chess hasn't been solved or there would be no debate over whether White or Black has an advantage. The mere existence of this article implies that chess hasn't been solved. Also, we already have a whole article for that: see Solving chess. Quale (talk) 05:54, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
LithiumFlash, it's beyond ironic that you would tag the article as having unreliable sources. The only unreliable source that was in the article was stack exchange, and you were the one who added it. The article was better before you insisted on trying to "fix it". Quale (talk) 05:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Agree w/ Quale in all respects. --IHTS (talk) 01:06, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- Note: this discussion continues in the next section "Chess has two players, White and Black" and then to "Yet another disruptive edit".—LithiumFlash (talk) 14:30, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
To my understanding neither arguments not theorists disagree that white has some advantage, even it is just psychological, as that one is very important in chess. If this advantage is real, the article is giving arguments if this is sufficient white to win and if various perceptions of black playing for draw are supported by facts. So I do not see the first sentence wrong, it states a general opinion and then argues for and against it. Because, regardless, it is still a prevalent opinion that white has some advantage. 46.250.214.3 (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Math investigation
There are very little purely math investigations in chess and computer chess. Even though a lot of algorithms were invented and implemented, the reasoning in computer chess is still human, we have incorporated our perception about chess in computer as well. A very simple test will convince you about that. Play 1. a3. This move means not much for white, so this moves does nothing more than reversing white for black. If white had any advantage it is now in hands of black. If you run the most sophisticated engine or look into any theoretical book, it says that this move is bad because white has wasted one move. But, theoretically that should not matter that much in case black and white are equal or close to equal, just as many authors claim. Additionally chess is about history. The main advantage of computer chess is a quick access to the libraries, but these libraries are human, so we are teaching computer to play more or less faster than us, to think faster. The only detailed investigation done on purely math level is retrograde analysis, especially endgames, where computers are able to analyze each position and find wining combination or prove that it is draw. If we take this as how computer would play chess, we would see that our vision of chess would fall apart, there is a way these endgames are played that we cannot comprehend, they cannot be remembered or reasoned or explained, they are just purely the effect of the connections between mathematical positions in chess. So this article is missing that analysis, and I think I can find a few good sources, I am just not certain if these are talking about advantages of black and white, since endgame is more of having a tempo than about purely black and white playing first long time ago. But, article is written by human, so I guess these are still human opinions after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.250.214.3 (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
- 1.a3 is not as good a test as you might think. If Black plays ...d5 or ...e5, the a3 move can often be useful (just think about how often ...a6 is played by Black in KP or QP openings). Probably better for Black to adopt a KIA setup (lame source but IM). Double sharp (talk) 08:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- OK here is a proper source: Djuric, Komarov, and Pantaleoni's Chess Opening Essentials, Vol. 4. Page 239 (on 1.a3): "it is essential to remember that ...a6 is fundamentally a reactive move that prepares counterplay on the queenside in openings where White has already taken possession of the centre. The problem here is that it is impossible to have counterplay if the other side is not attacking you." On those grounds they recommend the not-so-sharp replies 1...Nf6 or 1...g6, which make 1.a3 look a bit pointless. But I would also point out that if Black is not doing the attacking (which is needed to make 1.a3 look silly), then he's not exactly making full use of the first-move advantage handed to him. Double sharp (talk) 07:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Solving chess?
About 2/3 of the article with that name has been copy-pasted here. It’s only tangentially related to the subject matter of the article, and if kept, I propose it be summarized by a sentence and linked to the other article. It’s duplicate info with no sufficient purpose here. Sbalfour (talk) 22:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- Actually the information flow was in the opposite direction, Solving chess was created in 2010 by copying text that was in this article first. Quale (talk) 07:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Dead link needs fixing
Can someone please substitute the cite https://web.archive.org/web/20140708102445/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/thesystem.pdf for the dead link in footnote 83? Thanks! Krakatoa (talk) 20:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The link to Silman's review in footnote 84 is also dead. Can someone try to use the Wayback Machine to save it? Thanks! Krakatoa (talk) 20:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
FAR needed
Since the editors of this page refuse to remove a "quotations" section despite the fact that such sections have no place on wikipedia per various policies and guidelines, I've taken a closer look at the article and determined that it does not currently meet the fA criteria. Some of the sources do not appear to be high quality RS as required, with dodgy internet sites such as [1][2] being cited, as well as likely outdated sources such as [3]. Also, the citations are a mess, with various formats used and not all books with appropriate identifiers and page numbers provided. All of these things would have to be fixed to avoid FAR. (t · c) buidhe 08:00, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- You named WP:NOTDIRECTORY for reason in editsum for removing the quotes sec. Can't find anything there that w/ prohibit the sec, can you point out what's at WP:NOTDIRECTORY that does? Thx. --IHTS (talk) 08:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- I have not examined Buidhe's other complaints, but Edward Winter (the author of the second link) is a published subject-matter expert. Per WP:SPS his website should qualify as RS. Double sharp (talk) 13:23, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Possibly incorrect reference to "The Noble Game of Chess"
This wikipdedia article has the line "Joseph Bertin wrote in his 1735 textbook The Noble Game of Chess, "He that plays first, is understood to have the attack." " This line seems to contradict the information presented in the wikipedia article https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Philipp_Stamma which says Philipp Stamma is the author of The Noble Game of Chess, and that it was published (in English) in 1745, not in 1735. 2601:14F:C001:9865:AD6E:A2C2:EEA1:F40C (talk) 21:07, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Pinging @Krakatoa:, who wrote that sentence forever ago (as well as much of the rest of the article). --JBL (talk) 21:12, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- It appears that both Stamma and Bertin each wrote a book with that title. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+Noble+Game+of+Chess%22+book+(Stamma+OR+Bertin)&rlz=1C1JZAP_enUS1048US1048&oq=%22The+Noble+Game+of+Chess%22+book+(Stamma+OR+Bertin)&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQIRigARiLAzIKCAIQIRigARiLA9IBCTI1NzI5ajFqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Krakatoa (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)