Talk:Finnish nobility

Untitled

These sequences of translation are also related to noble titles.... Suedois 19:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Emperor Empress | Empereur,
Imperatrice | Kaiser,
Kaiserin | Kejsare,
Kejsarinna | Keisari,
Keisarinna (or Keisaritar, obsolete)¹¹

King,
Queen | Roi,
Reine | König,
Königin | Kung,
Drottning | Kuningas,
Kuningatar¹¹

Grand Duke/Grand Prince,
Grand Duchess/Grand Princess | Grand Duc,
Grande Duchesse | Großherzog/Großfürst,
Großherzogin/Großfürstin | Suuriruhtinas,
Suuriruhtinatar¹¹

| Archduke,
Archduchess | Erzherzog,
Erzherzogin | Arkkiherttua,
Arkkiherttuatar¹¹

Elector,
Electress | Kurfürst,
Erzherzogin/Kurfürstin | Vaaliruhtinas,
Vaaliruhtinatar¹¹

Prince,
Princess | Prince,
Princesse | Fürst¹⁰,
Fürstin | Furste,
Furstinna⁴ | Ruhtinas/prinssi,
Ruhtinatar/prinsessa⁴,¹¹

Duke,
Duchess | Duc,
Duchesse | Herzog,
Herzogin | Hertig | Herttua,
Herttuatar

Vote and seat belonged to the head of the house, and others were without such privilege

There seems to have appeared some editor who does not understand that in article presenting the entire nobility, there needs to be family members presented too, not only the heads. Until a workable other disposition of the presentation is found, and agreed between editors, classification of nobles should not be changed to present only classification between the heads. We shall not put too much emphasis to "officialdom", because official POV does not treat these people as a social class and so forth, only as a hierarchical organization between families. Suedois 00:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to riddarhusordningen (1626-1919) the head of the family has the primary right to the seat of the family. All male members could potentially take the seat of a family if the head did not participate. Also there existed a system with proxies, which meant that a noble man could represent another family. The classification of nobility is thus artificial. Furthermore, there was a class called the knights class which first encompassed "real" knights, later the decendants of riksråd, and in 1778 the 300 eldest families plus the decendants of commanders to the royal orders.

Also, it is misleading to translate the original names into Finnish in an en.wiki which is in English (wouldn't it be more logical to translate the name into English instead? But why translate?) The names you have translated such as Poiju, Hevosenkenkä, Metsästystorvi have never been used in Finnish. It is true that in the 15-16th century they did not exist in Swedish eiather and they are retroactive creations (except Boije), but the families were made noble by the king who later on gave them Swedish names. There is also no evidence of the families having been native Finnish speaking at any time, to the contrary.

Knaappiaateli is a term which is incorrectly used in the article. It is mixed with something called ancient nobility (uradel).

Lastly, I do not appreciate that you nullify all my changes in which I tried to start the above corrections.

Teuton 09:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your so-called corrections seem to be just your own stylistic notions also in other articles. Such are not appreciated here. Do not wonder when you are reverted on sight. Other editors are not eager to give an opening to somebody who just changes "December 6" to "6 December", and likes. Your above writing contains several misunderstandings of facts. For example, how are original nobility and knaappiaateli mixed there? They are two different, overlapping things, and should be explained in the article. Your edits have not improved any of such explanations. I would appreciate if you understand the English language. Suedois 01:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There barely ever existed altogether 300 noble houses in 18th century Finland, so it is nonsensical to allege in this context that 300 oldest of them were elevated to something. In case of someone having not given in due attention, this article deals with Finniah nobility, not Swedish. Suedois 01:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In 1778 Finland was part of Sweden. The noble families living in Finland had a seat in the Swedish House of Nobility. The very same year the 300 eldest untitled families (plus the families of the commanders) were included in "riddarklassen". When Finland became a grand duchy in 1809 the Swedish laws prevailed. The Swedish laws included also Riddarhusordningen. Hence, the Finnish families which were recorded in the Swedish House of Nobility continued to belong to riddarklassen. Check your facts before you start with your arrogant attitude. You are in fact inventing not only new names for the Finnish nobility but also other facts which I had corrected in the text. I am quite suprised that you even deleted the source I had added. Furthermore, I suggest that you read riddarhusordningen instead of inventing new classifications for the Finnish nobility. You may also read the source that you deleted so that we could avoid the vast amount of misunderstandings on your side.

Teuton 19:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. The name of Ritarihuone in English is Finnish House of Nobility. This has been checked with the Finnish House of Nobility.
2. The classification of the Finnish Nobility is incorrect and misleading in the current version.
3. Suedois has invented new names in Finnish for the old nobility. The peers and the kings were given Swedish names in most cases (there are a few exceptions). Names like Horn, Spore, Jägerhorn, Hästesko etc are established names. The same families have been registered both with the Swedish House of Nobility and the Finnish House of Nobility. Wikipedia must not be a forum for inventing new names in Finnish which never existed in Finnish.

Teuton 20:02, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish

In my opinion, being a descendant of what would here be called "Finnish Fobility", this whole article is misleading and should be removed.

The Finnish state has not on any occasion created any nobility, and therefor no such thing can exist. One could argue that the nobility created efter the founding of the Finnish House of Nobility would be Finnish. However given the nature nobility and as stated in articles about this, creation of nobility demands Fons Honorum. The only ones capable of Fons Honorum are monarchs, and rank alikes, like the Pope (there are certain exceptions, for instance Cromwell created Peers). I any case Finland has never had a nature of Fons Honorum, nor pretended to have so. This concludes that nobility created under Swedish rule is Swedish nobility, vasalls of the Swedish King. Through the Russian acceptance of Swedish law and the creation of the Finnish House of Nobility, Russia also accepted many of the Swedish noble families as Russian, thus becoming both Swedish and Russian nobles. Of course there are, quiet many, examples of families with noble ranks from different countries. In Finland there are a number of Baltic German noble families, that do hold ancient noble dignity as members of the Teutonic Order and both Swedish and Russian noble dignity.

So, there should be an article about the House of Nobility in Finland, and it's role as a organizer of the Nobility in Finland. There are nobles in Finland, however they are not Finnish nobility.

When it comes to the question of language usage, I find it utterly strange to change the names of persons, not ever known in the Finnish language to Finnish. The articles about these persons are made to target the persons, not the places they may be named after. It is nearly insulting to the person presently carrying the names, and I urge editors to prohibit the usage of Finnish names on Russian or Swedish nobles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.182.51.18 (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

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