Talk:Femke Bol/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: The Blue Rider (talk · contribs) 12:27, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lead

No problem spotted.

Early life and background

Amersfoort in the Netherlands. → Amersfoort, Netherlands.
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:PARA, short paragraphs should be avoided. I suggest the junction of the first and second paragraphs.
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To unclutter the paragraph, I suggest the following removals of non-notable places/people:

local club AV Triathlon → local club
she transferred to AV Altis, another local club → she transferred to another local club
where coach Werner Andrea discovered → where her coach discovered
Bol attended the secondary school Farel College in Amersfoort → Bol attended secondary school in Amersfoort

Changed (4x). I wanted to note that AV Altis and Werner Andrea are now missing in the running text, while they are still in the infobox. I'm hesitant about removing the name of her last club altogether from the article. And if the name is in the infobox, maybe it should also be in the running text? – Editør (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've put back the name 'AV Altis' in a slightly different way, let me know if you think it still needs improvement. – Editør (talk) 00:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, looks good. The Blue Rider

10:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the last paragraph there are two «As of 202x» in a row, As of 2021, she was a student... and As of 2023, she was in a relationship.... One of them should be reworded.
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you think it's a bit redundant naming the section as «Early life and background»? Early life already implies the latter.
The section title 'Early life' often refers to childhood, this section also mentions her academic studies and relationship. Taking into account Bol is only 23 years old, just 'Early life' suggests not to cover her entire life span, so that's where the "and background" came from. But I'm okay with changing it if you think that would be an improvement. – Editør (talk) 14:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The rationale makes sense, no need to change it. The Blue Rider 21:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Youth and junior career

Add wikilink to hurdles in (400 m outdoor, indoor, and hurdles).
Added. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is a heat? Is there a wikilink for that?
A heat is a preliminary race that determines which competitors advance to the (semi)final, see also wikt:heat#Etymology 1 definition 8. I couldn't find a Wikipedia article about this.– Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add wikilink to senior in first national senior title.
Added. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the sentence, In 2019, her last junior year, she claimed her first national senior title (indoor 400 m), be under the Senior career?
Youth, junior, and senior refer to the age category of both the competitor and the competition. So while she was still a junior competitor she won a title in a senior competition. Senior (athletics) redirects to 'open class' which may explain what is meant here, but I'm not sure 'open class' is used in athletics outside the USA. I've tried to clarify the text. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
as the continent's best U20 runner → as Europe's best U20 runner
Changed. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why did the 400 m hurdles became her signature event since that year? The source doesn't seem to corroborate; looks like WP:PUFFERY.
I think the statement was unsourced. I've simplified it for now and try to find a source for "signature event". – Editør (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article refers to the 400 m hurdles as her signature event, but it was written in 2023 so not as early as 2019. Maybe I'll just leave it out, it doesn't really add anything to "She specialises in the 400 metres hurdles (...)" in the lead. – Editør (talk) 16:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And I've added a source for championship win. – Editør (talk) 17:10, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add wikilink to Bellinzona in Galà dei Castelli in Bellinzona, Switzerland.
Added. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At the Doha World Championships in Qatar in October → In October, at the Doha World Championships in Qatar
Changed. – Editør (talk) 15:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Senior career

2020: First senior Dutch record and first senior successes

This sentence is missing a citation, With this mark, she would have placed fourth at the previous year's World Championships, missing a bronze medal by just five hundredths of a second.
I've removed the sentence, because I don't think an encyclopedic article is the right place for this "would have". – Editør (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is races over the barriers a common way to refer to hurdles? If not, it's considered MOS:CLICHE and should be avoided.
I think that "barriers" is sometimes simply used as a synonym for "hurdles", some examples: 100/110 m hurdles [1], 400 m hurdles [2], 3000 m steeple chase [3]. – Editør (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not quite understanding this sentence, First she ran away from a European-class field in Székesfehérvár, Hungary...in winning her first Diamond race. What do you mean she ran away from the field?
As I understand this sentence, the field refers to the competitors, see wikt:field#Noun meaning 5.5. I've changed the wording and added a source. – Editør (talk) 17:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2021: Tokyo Olympic bronze medallist

This sentence is missing a citation, Bol also set a Diamond League record, three circuit's meet records, and five meet records at the World Athletics Indoor Tour and Continental Tour events.
I've started addressing this by adding a source, but it made me rethink some of the carreer sections' summaries.
- The 'Youth and junior career' section starts with summarizing statements.
- All the subsections of the 'Senior career' section have summarizing titles.
- The '2021: Tokyo Olympic bronze medallist' subsection starts and ends with summarizing statements.
- The '2022: World indoor and outdoor silver medallist and triple European champion' and '2023: World indoor 400 m record and double world champion' subsections both end with summarizing statements.
Do you think I should change this to one format for all (sub)sections? – Editør (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That would be totally optional for a GA review, nevertheless that looks like an improvement to the article so feel free to do it. The Blue Rider 09:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've added sources for all the elements of this sentence and I will consider rewriting the sections another time. – Editør (talk) 12:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved the summary statements at the start of the 2021 section to the end. – Editør (talk) 02:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
smashing her previous best in the 400 metres → beating her previous best in the 400 metres
Changed. – Editør (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add wikilink to World Indoor Tour in Competing in the World Indoor Tour.
Added. – Editør (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The 21-year-old started the outdoor season by... Is the outdoor season the summer? Which year was this?
The track and field outdoor season is roughly from April to October. The year is 2021 as the section heading indicates, but I've added it. – Editør (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's a one-lap flat event? Sounds like a WP:CLICHE; it should be reworded.
Here "one-lap" refers to one lap on a standard outdoor athletics track of 400 metres and "flat event" to a race without hurdles. I've changed it to "400 m flat event". – Editør (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This fast race → This race
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I assume the following phrase is referring to Shamier Little, in that case, for ease of understanding I suggest the following: over the US rival → over Little
Changed. I've checked Little's WA profile and she finished second in this race. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
hurdles or flat → hurdles and flat
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following sentence is not phrased in a encyclopedic manner. She lost only to her main rivals in the world, the Americans, winner Sydney McLaughlin (51.46 s – world record) and runner-up Dalilah Muhammad (51.58 s – inside previous world record) → She lost to winner Sydney McLaughlin (51.46 s – world record) and runner-up Dalilah Muhammad (51.58 s – inside previous world record)
I've simplified the sentence, slightly differently. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some additional changes to the paragraph about the Olympics. – Editør (talk) 00:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bol broke, however, Yuliya Pechonkina's 2003.... The «however» looks like MOS:EDITORIAL.
I've removed a large part of the sentence with things that seemed not relevant to this article, including "however". – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Her result would have been also a world record about a month earlier, before 27 June, when McLaughlin clocked 51.90 s at the US Olympic trials. This «would have» kind of sentence doesn't seem particularly relevant; I suggest its removal.
Removed. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
season with yet another meet record → season with another meet record
Changed. – Editør (talk) 23:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2022: World indoor and outdoor silver medallist and triple European champion

For ease of understanding say the exact number instead of in her specialty distance.
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The «at the time» seems redundant in which was at the time faster than her outdoor best
Changed it to "which was also faster than her outdoor best". – Editør (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if the following sentence is particularly pertinent to the article. What do you think? Nevertheless if it stays it should be shortened: Only two-time Olympic champion, Shaunae Miller-Uibo of the Bahamas, had run faster indoors since 2007 → Only Shaunae Miller-Uibo had run faster indoors since 2007
Removed. – Editør (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
thanks to her "brilliant" closing surge → thanks to her closing surge
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence needs a citation: Bol also anchored the Dutch women's 4 × 400 m relay to silver thanks to her "brilliant" closing surge from fourth into second, with the fastest split of the race of 50.26 s.
Added. – Editør (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
to improve her own Diamond League record which she set the previous year. How fast was she comparatively to her previous record?
Improvement added. – Editør (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Remove duplicated wikilink to Eugene in At the World Championships in Eugene, Oregon
Removed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In her individual event. Which event is that?
Changed to "In the 400 m hurdles". – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Better say by how much instead of and well ahead of Muhammad in third.
Changed to "and ahead of Muhammad in third (53.13 s)". – Editør (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Dutch women's 4 × 400 m squad lost the baton in the heats and was disqualified despite a qualifying position thanks to Bol's leg. It's a team event, it wasn't only thanks to Bol that they achieved a qualifying position. I suggest the removal of the last part of the sentence.
Removed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
as she clearly won → as she won
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thus Bol became only the second Dutch athlete → Bol became only the second Dutch athlete
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bol set yet another meet record → Bol set another meet record
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
with a decisive victory → with a victory
Changed. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add wikilink to anchor leg in 48.52 s anchor leg to land.
Added. – Editør (talk) 14:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023: World indoor 400 m record and double world champion

Since Bol's 500 m run is in minutes so should be the outdoor record to make it easier to compare. 65.9s → 1:05:90 min
Changed. And I've made some additional changes to the sentence. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bol clocked an outright lifetime best → Bol clocked an lifetime best
Changed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the first woman since 2004 to become the fourth-fastest woman Seems quite a specific achievement, no? I suggest the removal of this part of the sentence.
I think "the first woman since 2004" is supposed to refer to "broke the 50-second barrier". I've rewritten and shortened the sentence. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
four days before her 23rd birthday Irrelevant information; it should be removed.
Removed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the first two sentences of the 3rd paragraph there should be an explanation on why does changing the lead leg at hurdle seven impact her run. Also, does strides mean steps? If so, use the layman term, please.
In response to the second part of your comment, the word 'stride' means 'large step', see also wikt:stride#Etymology 2 definition 1. In the context of athletics, it is used in the term 'stride pattern' [4] [5] [6] that refers to a running rhythm with a certain number of steps between the hurdles. – Editør (talk) 17:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've rewritten the beginning of the paragraph about the stride pattern, is it clearer now? – Editør (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following phrase doesn't seem relevant, I suggest its removal: as her chief rival, McLaughlin-Levrone, already ran with 14 strides until hurdle five in 2021 and until hurdle seven since 2022
Removed. – Editør (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The tall Bol had run → Bol had run
Changed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unannounced, she tried → She tried
Changed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the beginning of the outdoor season, Bol continued to display her dominance in the Diamond League. She won three races... → In the beginning of the outdoor season, Bol won three races...
Changed it, but keeping the term "Diamond League". – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm finding this whole paragraph a tad confusing. Let me see if I understood: she used to do 15 steps between hurdles, but she wants to lower that to 14 steps, though in Oordegem she did 16 steps after hurdle 7 and still set a world lead. Is that correct?
Has it become clear with the new explanation for the stride pattern? – Editør (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks much clearer, nice job. Though «now» is a MOS:RELTIME, so it needs to be replaced. The Blue Rider 09:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This paragraph uses the past tense, where it describes her stride pattern before training for the 2023 outdoor season ("Previously") and during that training ("Now"), so I don't think the issue raised in MOS:RELTIME applies here. If you still want me to change it, do you have a suggestion for the language? – Editør (talk) 09:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, the time is specified at the start of the paragraph. The Blue Rider 10:24, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After leading from the first barrier Which hurdles competition is she doing? 400 m?
Clarified in the next sentence. – Editør (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Bol became only the third woman → Bol became the third woman
Changed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Remove duplicated wikilink to World Athletics Rankings in No. 2 in the World Athletics Rankings
Removed. – Editør (talk) 13:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest the removal of «for the first time», in No. 2 in the World Athletics Rankings for the first time, since it misleads the reader into thinking this was her best ranking so far when she already had classified in 1st in 2021.
You are correct, this No. 2 ranking is for the women's overall ranking and the previous No. 1 ranking was for the women's 400 metres hurdles event ranking, see Femke Bol#World Athletics Rankings for an overview of her WA rankings. – Editør (talk) 14:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, she recovered from this setback to comfortably win the 400 m hurdles gold... → She won the 400 m hurdles gold...
Rewritten this sentence completely. – Editør (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personal bests

All tables are in compliance with MOS:TABLES.

Competition results

All tables and the list are in compliance with MOS:TABLES and MOS:LISTS. Though I wonder whether the list would be more readable as a table.
I thought of changing the "Circuit wins and titles" list into a table, but I was afraid it would make it too long. – Editør (talk) 22:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recognition

The list is in compliance with MOS:LIST.

Notes

Note 1., 2. and 3. need citations.
- Note 1: removed this unsourced note about a record that was not a record, because of this removal the numbering of the other notes has changed.
- Note 2: already has a source reference.
- Note 3: this information is in her WA profile, which is the main source for the information in the table, but I've added another source to the note.
- Note 4: source added.
— Editør (talk) 20:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Shouldn't the club, Ciko'66, be on the infobox?
According to this running website article (first sentence of second paragraph), she remained a member at AV Altis in Amersfoort while she was training at Ciko'66 in Arnhem. I'm not sure how to clarify this in the running text. But based on this, I don't think Ciko'66 should be in the infobox. – Editør (talk) 15:34, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. Did she train at Ciko'66 temporarily? If so, you could specify this. The Blue Rider 09:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
She started training at Ciko'66 in 2016 and at Papendal in 2019, both locations are in Arnhem. I have no information about changes of the training location in between, so "temporarily" seems not quite right for possibly a three-year period. I've changed it to "athletics track of Ciko'66" to focus on the facilities and not the association. – Editør (talk) 10:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stability

The article is not changing significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Images

All media are tagged with their copyright statuses and are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions.

Sources

All sources numbers are from this version. Checked sources #1, #3, #15 and #79.

Source #79 (Hurdles First) is a blog.
Do you mean the information is unreliable? – Editør (talk) 21:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, blogs are almost always unreliable. The Blue Rider 21:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Removed, I've used a different source when I rewrote the explanation about the stride pattern. – Editør (talk) 00:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All sources numbers are from this version. Checked sources #29, #45, #67, #86, #94, #95, #114, #115, #116, #117, #132, #133 and #134.

Source #45 (Twitter) is a social network, thus it's self-published. While European Athletics is a WP:EXPERTSPS, per WP:RSPTWITTER, Twitter should never be used for third-party claims about living persons.
I've replace the tweet with five alternative sources together conveying the same information. – Editør (talk) 11:13, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Source #94 doesn't cover Bol's anchor leg time.
This source is used for the names and running order of the relay team. Source #95 gives the split times in running order. – Editør (talk) 10:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Source #116 says Netherlands got 1st place, not 7th.

Oh, I see you used the season top list as the ranking. Though, Canada team didn't even compete in the same venue. If you could please clarify me. The Blue Rider 10:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This source gives the result of the B Final, but in combination with source #115 about the Final (the A Final as it were), it shows that the Dutch relay team had the 7th fastest time. – Editør (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understood, thanks. The Blue Rider

10:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources #133 and #134 are from Instagram; the rationale of source #45 also applies here.
After 2020, European Athletics ceased publishing the European Athlete of the Month results on their website, but appears to have moved the candidate announcement, voting process and winner announcement to Instagram entirely. It is their election, so in this case Instagram is a self-published primary source, see also WP:INSTAGRAM. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Normally social media can be used as a self-published primary source but not about BLP, see WP:BLPSPS. The Blue Rider 11:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree that if a winner of the European Athlete of the Month published this news on their own Instagram account, this post would not be acceptible as source here because it's self-published. But in this case I disagree, because the only organisation that can make this particular claim, namely who won their election of European Athlete of the Month, is the European Athletics Association. And I don't see how it would matter that they've published it on their verified Instagram account instead of their website. – Editør (talk) 11:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree with you, so let's WP:IGNORE the rule and pass this article. The Blue Rider 11:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio

Earwig's Copyvio points to 21,3%; mainly due to competition names and quotes. (a lot of sources are in Dutch).

General

Thank you for your review. I've tried to address all your comments/questions and fix the issues you raised. Let me know if there are any unresolved issues that need to be fixed. – Editør (talk) 00:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still haven't done the source and copyvio check, I will try to finish it today. Thank you for your patience. The Blue Rider

09:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.