Talk:Farnese Artemis

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

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Farnese Artemis in the National Archaeological Museum, Naples

• ... that while the objects on the Farnese Artemis have earlier been identified as female breasts, the Museum housing the statue now claims that they depict bull scrotums?

Source: Mann: "Maggiore attenzione è sempre stata posta sull’interpretazione delle protuberanze del busto: si è già detto sulla possibilità di trovarsi dinanzi a delle mammelle, alludendo quindi al potere della fertilità. Tuttavia, contro questa ipotesi si contesta che le parti anatomiche, in quasi tutte le migliori repliche, sono scolpite in pietra nera (o bronzo), mentre le mammelle si presentano come tutto l’apparato decorativo (in alabastro), vedendo in esse, quindi, dei semplici ornamenti. Molto più accreditata la possibilità che si tratti della rappresentazione di scroti di toro offerti alla dea durante cerimonie sacrificali. Del resto, in un culto declinato quasi esclusivamente al femminile, in cui il sacerdote officiante era un eunuco, le sacerdotesse erano vergini e le devote giovani donne non ancora sposate, gli scroti di tori rappresenterebbero un forte simbolo del potere di Artemide sugli uomini, garante della fertilità e della futura prosperità per tutti i suoi fedeli. Probabile, inoltre, che in un culto iniziatico questi scroti, come delle “sacche”, contenessero del miele, e che sulle mani venissero posti fiori e api (simboli che ricorrono anche lungo l’ependytes) in segno di devozione; in tal modo la dea veniva venerata come un’ape regina e la città diveniva il suo alveare. Non è un caso infatti che uno dei simboli di Efeso fosse proprio l’ape, come è attestato dai una serie di rinvenimenti numismatici." Translation: More attention has always been paid to the interpretation of the protuberances of the bust: we have already mentioned the possibility of breasts, thus alluding to the power of fertility. However, against this hypothesis it is disputed that the anatomical parts, in almost all the best replicas, are carved in black stone (or bronze), while the breasts are presented as the entire decorative apparatus (in alabaster), thus seeing them as mere ornaments. Much more credible is the possibility that they are the representation of bull scrotums offered to the goddess during sacrificial ceremonies. Moreover, in an almost exclusively female-dominated cult, in which the officiating priest was a eunuch, the priestesses were virgins and the devotees young women not yet married, bull scrotums would represent a strong symbol of Artemis' power over men, the guarantor of fertility and future prosperity for all her worshippers. It is also probable that in an initiatory cult these scrotums, like ‘sacs’, contained honey, and that flowers and bees (symbols that also recur along the ependytes) were placed on the hands as a sign of devotion; thus the goddess was worshipped as a queen bee and the city became her hive. Indeed, it is no coincidence that one of the symbols of Ephesus was the bee, as attested by a series of numismatic finds.

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Brussels Party Conference of the Communist Party of Germany (will review in the coming hours) Review done.

Created by WatkynBassett (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 26 past nominations.

WatkynBassett (talk) 08:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC).

• Will go through this nomination. Interesting stuff. PanagiotisZois (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Review: Things on the article and technical things.

• OK, the article is both new enough and big enough. It was created only a few days ago on September 25, and is more than 3000 characters.
• The copyvio tool found only 14.5%, so that checks out.
• The article cites only three sources, which admittedly isn't much. But they all seem to be reliable.
• QPQ has been done.

The hook itself:

• The hook itself is properly cited and appears in the article. One small issue I have here is that the source itself is a primary one that comes from the museum, rather than a secondary one. However, given than this is a museum, and one that has been in operation since 1777, I think it is acceptable.
• The hook its is also short enough, having a prose size of less than 200 characters.
• The hook is also quite interesting. I'm sure the references to women's breasts and bull scrotums are definitely going to catch people's attention. I'm still thinking if maybe the sentence could be slightly reworded. Would you oppose changing it to "that while the objects on the Farnese Artemis had initially been identified as female breasts"? Using the past tense "had" instead of "have" seems more appropriate here. Also, from my understanding, the belief that the objects on Artemis' chest are breast is one that was there from the very beginning this statue was discovered and housed in the museum. Using "initially" feels more appropriate than "earlier".
  • Besides that, "that the objects on the Farnese Artemis, initially identified as female breasts, are now claimed by the Museum housing the statue to depict bull scrotums?" is another alternative.
• The image used to support the hook is free. However, one thing I'm wondering is if it'd be better to use this image instead? Given that the discussion is on the objects on Artemis' chest, using a close-up seems more appropriate.

@WatkynBassett: Overall, interesting article. I'd definitely like to learn more about the statue if you decide to expand the article in the future. As for the hook, I'm leaning close to approving, although I have a few questions. However, all of my questions/suggestions are not things I'm uncompromising on. If you think the hook is all right as is, I can be convinced to leave it. PanagiotisZois (talk) 18:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• • @PanagiotisZois: I feel your frustration with the scarcity of cited sources. Usually, I am quite good at accessing even quite obscure sources. But the Italian sources cited in the bibliography section of the museum's text eluded my digital access.
  • Your wording advice concerning the hook is well considered. I think using "had initially" is indeed a preferable choice. So I would propose
  • ALT1: "... that while the objects on the Farnese Artemis had initially been identified as female breasts, the Museum housing the statue now claims that they depict bull scrotums?"
  • Your suggestion concerning the image is one which I gave some thought before bringing this article to DYK. I agree that the image proposed by you is in principle much better suited because the objects in question are better visible. However, I thought that this image is a bit out of focus and thus not "clear". So maybe we could leave the image choice to the expert promoter?
  • Thank you for your valuable time reviewing this nomination! WatkynBassett (talk) 06:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@WatkynBassett: Thank you for rewording the hook. I am inclined to agree that an issue with the alternate image is that it isn't centered. One thing I do appreciate about the full-body image is that it supports the source's argument that only Artemis' body parts are depicted in black, while her clothing (including the sacks) is depicted as white alabaster. I do agree that it's probably best for the issue regarding the image to be left up to the people that end up placing the DYN nominations on the main page. Hope you do more work with this article. However, on my end, I will pass this nomination for ALT 1 as is with the full-body image.

It would be interesting if someone ended up making a whole article about Ephesian Artemis one day and her differences from her "mainstream" counterpart. Thank you for bringing up this topic to our attention. PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:20, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@PanagiotisZois and WatkynBassett: the suggested image replacement is actually a little unclear at main page size; I think File:Ártemis efesia Nápoles 01.JPG would work better. What do you think? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@WatkynBassett: You're the nominator, but I do think this image works better than the previous one. PanagiotisZois (talk) 18:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@PanagiotisZois and AirshipJungleman29: I see pros and cons: This image shows the "objects" quite well, while the intricate head of the statue is not visable. I defer to the judgement of the promoter. WatkynBassett (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@WatkynBassett: I may have mistaken your comment about the image showing the statue's head. To provide one more option, I decide to take your original image choice and create a cropped version showing it only from the belt and up. This image does help enhance the argument that only Artemis' body parts are black, while everything else is white, while also displaying the breasts/scrotums more clearly and closely than the original image did; . Unless you think one of the other images is better, I would go with this one.PanagiotisZois (talk) 21:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

This is why I love Wikipedia sometimes, collaborating for the common good. This crop is clearly the best and I fully endorse it! Thanks a lot, PanagiotisZois! WatkynBassett (talk) 05:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad you enjoyed the cropped image @WatkynBassett:. I hope the back and forth on my part wasn't too annoying. Since you also agree with the image choice, I once more approve of ALT1 with the use of , and the caption provided in ALT0. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)