Talk:Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV

Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 27, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 January 2019 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben (Fall with thanks, fall with praise), Part IV of Bach's Christmas Oratorio for New Year's Day 1735, commemorates the naming of Jesus?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2019/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lingzhi2 (talk · contribs) 06:25, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this article. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 06:25, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm doing some copy editing. I have a question: in the section titled "5" we have, "another bass recitative... is commented by another stanza". What does "commented" mean here? How does a stanza "comment" a recitative? Oh... the same wording appears in section "3": "the bass recitative... is commented line by line with the first stanza from Rist's hymn". If I may ask, what does that mean? I will try to Google it... ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 03:50, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In Bach's oratorios, we have the narration, delivered in recitative, and commentary (or do you have a better word? "reflection"?) usually in an aria and/or chorale. Will read the below, but am pretty busy today, RL. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:16, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt: Hey I added a footnote that currently just says "blah blah blah", but cited to page 51 of Melamed'sHearing Bach's Passions. Melamed says roughly what you just said... When you get time, could you please replace the "blah blah blah" with a summary of the Melamed page that says roughly what you just told me? If you don't like the Melamed source, we can find another... ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
good idea, just later --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:42, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ps: A similar article, btw, is Jauchzet, frohlocket! BWV 248 I --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote some text. You are the resident expert; please check what I wrote later to see if it is accurate. Cheers... ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 14:48, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Hmmm, there's interesting stuff in [1] ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 03:58, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"The music in F major is dominated by two horns and has a more intimate character than the outer parts of the oratorio with bright trumpets." I have no idea what this means. First, since the F major movements bracket all others, I would (in my mind at least) tend to think of them as the "outer parts". But the outer parts seem to be "bright trumpets" and the F major movements "intimate"...?
Can you change to say more clearly "of the oratorio", namely the openings of Parts (or cantatas) 1, 3 and 6, and the closing of 6 which is also the last movement of the whole thing, all in D major and with 3 trumpets and timpani. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You understand far better than I what needs to be changed, where, and how. Please do make the necessary change... ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 23:11, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I can't because what I see is clear enough: we have an oratorio which consists of six parts, each a cantata. Only YOU can say what is missing for a new reader to grasp that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AHA!!! Color me completely ignorant, but humbly learning. The reason that made no sense at all to me is because I thought "the oratorio" meant Fallt mit Danken, fallt mit Loben, BWV 248 IV. But no, this is one cantata inside a much larger piece, Christmas Oratorio. The article needs to explain things which seem obvious to you, because they are not obvious at all to the unintiated (exemplified by yours truly). So.. do the other cantatas have Wikipedia articles too? can you change the text to wikilink to them? Something like "The music in this cantata, in F major, is dominated by two horns and has a more intimate character than the outer parts of the oratorio (Name of Part I, Name of Part III, Name of Part VI) which feature bright trumpets."? ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So far, only one cantata has an article, but the others are covered in Christmas Oratorio. Will try something. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Use {{anchor}} at the sections in Christmas Oratorio. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 14:18, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
See if you like referring to 3 movements. Not to self: Write Herr, wenn die stolzen Feinde schnauben, BWV 248 VI this year. (I had planned Part II, but why not the other.) I could use anchor for individual movements in the WO (short for Weihnachtsoratorium) but feel that landing at the final movement of Part VI might be more a surprise than a revelation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why do some movements in the table have no value for their key? ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The recitatives, because there's no fixed key but modulation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be strange or awkward to add a note in each of those cells explainging that recitative has no key? ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It has not been done because most people getting to these articles know that the recitative will make for a smoothe transition from on fixed key to the next. Compare BWV 180. We could do what the Dürr source does, give the 2 keys of start and end, - but it's kind of unfair to those touched in between. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt: ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 10:20, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so I listened to "Bach: Weihnachtsoratorium BWV 248 - Cantate no.4 - Combattimento Consort Amsterdam - Live" on YouTube. I can't link to it on Wikipedia; YouTube is blacklisted. So anyhow, in the fifth movement, when you say (in this article) "...is commented by another stanza, "Jesu, meine Freud und Wonne" (Jesus, my joy and delight)from the same hymn" are you talking about what the chorus is singing while the bass is also singing (much more clearly)? By the way, the echo in the fourth movement was pleasing. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 10:20, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good to hear! - Perhaps "juxtaposed" would be better than "commented"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I guess my question was, is it the chorus who are supplying commentary? I am in the dark on some fundamental points. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 12:05, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only the melody (sopranos), - if we'd say chorus, readers might think four-part setting of the chorale. - Keep asking, please. Feedback by someone unfamiliar with the topic is best! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What ENGVAR? I see two versions of honor/honour in one sentence: "(I will live only for Your honor),[13] expresses eagerness to live only for the honour of Jesus." If we're using AmerEng, change "brackets" to "parentheses". If not, then don't....check for other issues ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 21:24, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tricky question. This article is written in British English, but the translator who is quoted is American. I changed it but am not sure that was the right thing to do: changing a quote for sake of our consistency. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, tricky. If we are quoting translations, they should also be in quotes. The brackets were confusing. Jmar67 (talk) 12:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda's questions

I don't think that a link cantata is helpful, after we just had Christmas cantata. It is VERY broad in meaning, and the lead says that that the meaning changed over time, - look like a long detour to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK. You see, you know that it's not helpful, but I don't. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 08:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did you check it out?

A cantata (/kænˈtɑːtə/; Italian: [kanˈtaːta]) (literally "sung", past participle feminine singular of the Italian verb cantare, "to sing") is a vocal composition with an instrumental accompaniment, typically in several movements, often involving a choir. The meaning of the term changed over time, from the simple single voice madrigal of the early 17th century, to the multi-voice "cantata da camera" and the "cantata da chiesa" of the later part of that century, ...

What of that is helpful to you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly: secco recitative

Secco recitatives, popularized in Florence though the proto-opera music dramas of Jacopo Peri and Giulio Caccini during the late 16th century, formed the substance of Claudio Monteverdi's operas during the 17th century, and continued to be used into the 19th century Romantic era by such composers as Gaetano Donizetti, reappearing in Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress. They also influenced areas of music outside opera from the outset; the recitatives of Johann Sebastian Bach, found in his passions and cantatas, are especially notable.

While all of it is right, it doesn't help understanding what it is, which is further up in the article recitative, which was linked before. secco is even bolded there. Perhaps take these things up with with project classical music. I just came to avoiding these links, similar for Italian tempo markings. Thank goodness, Bach rarely used those ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:54, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will look. Meanwhile, three questions (then I have to stop for now): There's a similar table in Christmas oratorio article but some differences. I like the fact that the echo aria has "(soprano & 'Echo' soprano)" instead of just S. But adding that would deviate from SATB format. Any way to add info from that table into this one? Why does that table have italics for the titles but this one doesn't. And finally, where did you explain what details you don't understand or like about my footnote about vocal roles etc? I can't find it. I want to use it to improve the footnote... Tks, more later ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 08:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Will think about the echo soprano. Movement titles should not be italic but I always hesitate to change the work of others. I like your footnote. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"the singer asks Jesus two questions and imagines the answers " ... Glancing at this translation, it looks like three questions to me... ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk)
changed, good catch! also added the echo S. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am satisfied that this article meets the requirements of WP:WIAGA. PASS GA. But I have a comment: I think you should add all three questions and their answers to the article, and give them a WP:RS. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 04:33, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]