Talk:F Club

Conflict of Interest (CoI) edit request

The immediately following comments by User:Jozaka48 were copied from elsewhere

I am the founder and promoter of The F Club. The current article has annoyed me for a long time, it was never a punk club, it came after punk and was always called a New Wave night. Yes, I did promote some punk bands, but the majority were from an eclectic sampling of all the new and interesting music that was emerging form the post-punk scene. Much of the article is wrong! Venues are wrong! Bands who played there are wrong! The bit about Nazi skinheads is wrong! Yes, there was some trouble at other venues, I was promoting at a West Indian club with black bar staff and large black bouncers... Do you think we would have been bothered by skinheads? I did my best to keep the club a fun night out and made it as politically neutral as I could. I banned the distribution of any political literature and anyone 'trying it on' was removed.- I've tried to correct it several times , but I keep being knocked back for the original mis-guided piece. - If you need proof of who I am go to Facebook: John F Keenan or The F Club or I loved the F Club. Please give me the opportunity to correct the article or even write a comprehensive piece. Alongside The F Club I promoted bigger acts in bigger venues, I promoted the Futurama Festivals and the Duchess in Leeds for 12 years. There's a play being performed this Saturday, at Leeds Playhouse, about The F Club, with an actor playing yours truly... I will be answering Questions after. Come and see me if you want proof. [:Jozaka48 (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Jozaka48, although I'm not active on this page I copied this post here and will alert the Yorkshire WikiProject and WikiProject Music to check if someone from there can work with your concerns. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's guides and policies regarding all content apply to this article without exception; all statements should be verifiable with reference to reliable sources. If the sources are bad, the statements relying on them should be removed or reliable sources supporting those statements should be used in place of the bad ones. If reliable sources are wrong the article will have to include neutral point of view explanation of this condition if contrary sources exist to allow it. This is all standard procedure stuff for experience editors; inexperienced editors should be aware that original research is always unacceptable. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 12:36, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The beginnings of The 'F' Club (in 1977) were at Leeds Poly in the Art Department common room. When the students took their summer break, a friend of mine, Graham Cardy, whose brother, Phil, was a Leeds art student, suggested to me that the common room might be available for some shows (I had already promoted some larger gigs at Leeds Poly and Wakefield Unity Hall with bands like Johnny Thunders Heartbreakers and The Vibrators). I looked at the room and decided to go along with it. As I was the one with a job and had some money behind me, I booked and contracted the acts which included, The Police, The Slits, XTC, The Vibrators, The Boys, Slaughter & The Dogs, The Spitfire Boys (NOT the Psychedelic Furs - they first played later on at The FAN Club at Brannigan's in March 1980).

At short notice, the Student Committee told us that we would have to vacate the premises, before the students came back and we wouldn't be able to hold any more gigs in the common room. We had such a great crowd of regulars, misfits from all walks of life, that I thought it would be a shame to break it all up. The idea came to me that we should form a club (£1 membership with a 25p discount off gigs and a % off garments in certain punky clothes shops). The 'F' Club was born, I called it that because it was like, "'F... the Poly, we'll go somewhere else". On the last day at The Poly I wrote on the bottom of the membership application 'Let's get the 'F' out of here!". In a short space of time, I managed to secure a night at The Ace of Clubs, a fading cabaret venue On Woodhouse Street, a couple of streets away from The University. Graham didn't want to come, but, along with the new members, I took DJ Claire Shearsby with me, she was a valuable asset, with a taste in music that tapped into the zeitgeist. - Notable acts there included: Wilko Johnson, The Rezillos, X-Ray Spex, The Killjoys (Kevin Rowlands), Penetration plus early gigs from The Gang of 4 and The Mekons (no Siouxsie or Joy division, I booked them later at Roots in 1978).

In the Spring of 1978, the Ace of clubs had a suspicious fire, so I moved The 'F' Club to Roots in Chapeltown. The acts I promoted there included: Howard Devoto's Magazine, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Joy Division, Suicide, The Rich Kids, Wayne County & The Electric Chairs, Big in Japan, The Adverts, The Rezillos.

In the late 60s I lived on Chapeltown Road, around the corner from what was then known as The International Club, formerly a synagogue. Carl Young, a friend of a good pal of mine, Winston Smith (both from the Caribbean island of Nevis, where coincidently my brother and his wife were teaching) had obtained the lease on the club from owner, Astlee Hyman; Carl was interested in my proposal to move my nights there. - It was later renamed, The Phoenix Club, The Cosmopolitan Club and then Cosmo's. - I don't ever remember it being called The Continental, as stated on the Wiki page.

Carl Young is correct, I did let some younger, impressionable NF customers into the club, with warnings that if they misbehaved they would be out. - The club was there for everyone to enjoy music. My feeling was that they were drinking in a West Indian establishment in a multi-cultural area of Leeds and would be foolish to start anything. I used to talk to them, some were decent lads, who had been groomed by older men. My politics are left of centre, but I have always been tolerant of the views of other people, even if they don't fit with mine. I believed then and still do, that by giving those youngsters (most were still in their teens) that opportunity to mix with persons from other races, it might have softened their ingrained opinions. - In some cases, I know it worked.

You cannot persuade young minds by excluding them, they were mixing with other New Wave fans, the main thing they had in common was the music. By allowing them to enter, we were aware of their presence and observed their behaviour. - 'Better the Devil you know'. - During my time at Roots we did not have any altercations, fights or disturbances within the premises. None of the shows were disrupted or compromised, as erroneously stated in the original Wiki article. - There was only one encounter, when I had Sham 69 booked to play. The band cancelled at the last minute; they had been offered a BBC Top of the Pops slot because their single had entered the charts. - I managed to inform most of the members, but on the night, a mini-bus, full of older-looking skinheads, turned up alongside the club. I stood at the door and told them the gig had been cancelled and gave the reasons; the bunch of lads walked away somewhat disgruntled. - Later, I heard an unfounded story that they had gone somewhere else and caused trouble. However, I had taken down the number of the mini-bus and had reported it to the police. The police decided to take no action, which led me to think that they could have been 'agent provocateurs' and that we may have dodged a bullet.

In June 1978, a far-left magazine, The Leveller, printed an article claiming the 'F' stood for 'fascist'. This was very annoying and just wasn't true. However, in July 1978 I changed the name to The FAN Club and in October 1978, moved it to Brannigan's, Call Lane, in the city centre of Leeds. The name The 'F' Club only lasted 9 months from Autumn 1977 to Summer 1978, after that it was always The FAN Club... but to this day, people still refer to it as The 'F' Club.

The Fan Club at Brannigan's covered my favourite years in live music (1978 - 19820) so much was happening with an astonishing mix of new and vibrant acts including: U2, The Cure, The Psychedelic Furs, The B-52s, Joy Division, Echo & The Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes, Wah!Heat, The Human League, The Fall, Adam & The Ants, The Tourists, Killing Joke, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Altered Images, Toyah, Joe Jackson, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, Bad Manners, The Thompson Twins, Crass, Throbbing Gristle, John Otway, John Cooper Clark and lots, lots more. - Hundreds of acts and gigs with very little bother. - I can understand that tensions were high between the NF, the BM and the SWP, I was concerned about the effects it had on some of my customers and did my best to keep them safe. Incidents have been exaggerated by both sides, "What did you do in the punk wars, Daddy?". - I was in the centre of it all, had threats from both sides, but came out of it unscathed, - I ran the 'F' Club because I enjoyed it, I liked the people, the music and the excitement, I hardly ever made money out of it, but loved the scene I had helped to create.

In answer to your genre comment: The bands I booked included reggae bands such as Matumbi, Black Slate, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, The Crusaders, Tribesman, Boudica (whose Sound System/PA I hired on a regular basis) - The Ska bands I promoted at The Fan Club included: Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, The Bodysnatchers. ('Diversity' way before it became fashionable) - Electro acts included: Suicide (electro pioneer, Martin Rev and Alan Vega), Cabaret Voltaire, The Human League, Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark, The Thompson Twins, A Certain Ratio, New Order, and lots more - In fact, my booking policy was very eclectic, I picked the best emerging acts I could find from all genres. I promoted regular packages from Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield containing many bands who went on to national fame. Mod bands performed, girl bands, rock bands, poets, comedians and local heroes... it was a club for everyone. - As it happens, I promoted very few punk acts, mainly bands like 999, The Lurkers, UK Subs, the Damned and Pure Hell (black American punks). Most of the acts were classed as alternative. - The beginnings of 'Goth' were obviously there: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, Killing Joke, Danse Society, Nightmares in Wax, March Violets, Joy Division and our regular local band, The Expelaires, whose members went off to join and help form Sisters of Mercy, The Mission, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, etc.

Alongside the F Club/FAN Club, I was booking bigger gigs at Wakefield Unity Hall: Captain Beefheart, Roy Harper, Ultravox, The Human League, Toyah, Spear of Destiny, Southern Death Cult (The Cult), Budgie, Saxon, Dexy's Midnight Runners, The Beat, Gary Glitter, The Damned. And even bigger events at Leeds Queen's Hall: Futurama 1 / 2 / 5 and at TifFANy's: The Stranglers, Squeeze, Bad Manners, Julian Cope, Killing Joke, The Birthday Party, New Order, Japan, Madness, U2. Then The Fforde Grene, The Irish Centre and The Astoria, with a few Town Hall shows. - As the tenant/promoter at The Duchess for 12 years, I put it on the touring map. After that The New Roscoe and The Brudenell. - The list goes on and is still going on.

I've written this as a record. Every detail is true - I know I was there! - I am the proper source of information. Most of the citations refer to me. I have the flyers, posters, tickets, accounts to prove it and members who can verify everything I have stated. - Maybe now you can understand why I am irritated by the piece on Wiki. About 75% is incorrect. All the information needed to correct it is in the writings above. - Please try to resolve this. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC) Jozaka48 (talk) 18:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I've looked at the Wiki page and some aspects have been corrected. However this section is completely WRONG! --- "In 1978, it moved once again to Roots in Chapeltown, where it hosted the Cure. During this period, performances were less frequent due Eddy Morrison's white power skinheads bringing performances by many non-nationalist groups to a halt. This led to frequent altercations between the attendees of the club and the far-right. Eventually, it relocated to the basement of Brannigan's on the corner of Call Lane and Lower Briggate, where it changed its name to Fan Club, due to a Levellers leaflet claiming the "F" stood for "fascist"." ---

So Frustrating! The Cure did not play at Roots in 1978 - they played at The FAN Club at Brannigan's on Thursday 15th March 1979 with The Teardrop Explodes supporting. - As I've stated many times: The National Front DID NOT bring any 'F' Club performances to a stop - Performances were never 'less frequent', I carried the club on as normal until the move to Brannigans. - There were never 'frequent altercations' between the attendees within the club - Eddie Morrison was not a regular at Roots - It has all been manufactured to make Eddie Morrison, a local thug, seem more important. - Where did you get this information? Was it from a 'reliable source' was it 'properly sourced'? - Doubt it very much, as IT NEVER HAPPENED! - Please cite the source. Much of what went on at that time was propaganda and hyped-up scare tactics. - To my understanding, although there may have been some beatings and scuffles away from the club, no one was ever seriously hurt around this time. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

P.S. For the sake of further accuracy, it wasn't a Levellers leaflet (as stated on the Wiki page)... the article was in a far-left magazine called, The Leveller. - I'm taking the time to write these things because I care, it's MY HISTORY. - I booked the acts, signed the contracts, and publicised the night. - I drew the flyers, the tickets, made the posters and pasted them up around Leeds. It was a large chunk of my life and it matters to me, if not to anyone else. - For the sake of historical accuracy, please ensure that these posts get to the appropriate people on Wikipedia who can actually make things happen. Jozaka48 (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The information about there being altercations with fascists is cited in [1], which is an article published by the Leeds Library so passes WP:RS. That article itself includes a citation to this article (which isn't cited here) where Carl Young, the owner of Roots states "There were NF in there- I’m not sure why John would let them in, but they were definitely present, and you just didn’t know who was who until you knew your way around", with Keenan later stating "There was a presence there of the NF." Also, these are referenced in The White Nationalist Skinhead Movement (can't find whole pages now but the info can be seen in previews) which was published by Feral House. The White Nationalist book is also the citation for the Continental Club, however, which does seem to be wrong, as other articles say the Chapeltown venue was Roots, not the Continental.

As for the other elements trying to be added: the club playing new wave is cited example, but I can't find any citations for ska, reggae or electro. "Stars of Today" and Graham Cardy are referenced in No Machos Or Pop Stars: When the Leeds Art Experiment Went Punk in Chapter 3, which is published by Duke University Press, so passes RS. There's not any citations I can find as to most of bands who played trying to be added, however every band mentioned in the article is sourced, although no time is stated for when The Psychedelic Furs played, just that they did. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The beginnings of The 'F' Club (in 1977) were at Leeds Poly in the Art Department common room. When the students took their summer break, a friend of mine, Graham Cardy, whose brother, Phil, was a Leeds art student, suggested to me that the common room might be available for some shows (I had already promoted some larger gigs at Leeds Poly and Wakefield Unity Hall with bands like Johnny Thunders Heartbreakers and The Vibrators). I looked at the room and decided to go along with it. As I was the one with a job and had some money behind me, I booked and contracted the acts which included, The Police, The Slits, XTC, The Vibrators, The Boys, Slaughter & The Dogs, The Spitfire Boys (NOT the Psychedelic Furs - they first played later on at The FAN Club at Brannigan's in March 1980).

At short notice, the Student Committee told us that we would have to vacate the premises, before the students came back and we wouldn't be able to hold any more gigs in the common room. We had such a great crowd of regulars, misfits from all walks of life, that I thought it would be a shame to break it all up. The idea came to me that we should form a club (£1 membership with a 25p discount off gigs and a % off garments in certain punky clothes shops). The 'F' Club was born, I called it that because it was like, "'F... the Poly, we'll go somewhere else". On the last day at The Poly I wrote on the bottom of the membership application 'Let's get the 'F' out of here!". In a short space of time, I managed to secure a night at The Ace of Clubs, a fading cabaret venue On Woodhouse Street, a couple of streets away from The University. Graham didn't want to come, but, along with the new members, I took DJ Claire Shearsby with me, she was a valuable asset, with a taste in music that tapped into the zeitgeist. - Notable acts there included: Wilko Johnson, The Rezillos, X-Ray Spex, The Killjoys (Kevin Rowlands), Penetration plus early gigs from The Gang of 4 and The Mekons (no Siouxsie or Joy division, I booked them later at Roots in 1978).

In the Spring of 1978, the Ace of clubs had a suspicious fire, so I moved The 'F' Club to Roots in Chapeltown. The acts I promoted there included: Howard Devoto's Magazine, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Joy Division, Suicide, The Rich Kids, Wayne County & The Electric Chairs, Big in Japan, The Adverts, The Rezillos.

In the late 60s I lived on Chapeltown Road, around the corner from what was then known as The International Club, formerly a synagogue. Carl Young, a friend of a good pal of mine, Winston Smith (both from the Caribbean island of Nevis, where coincidently my brother and his wife were teaching) had obtained the lease on the club from owner, Astlee Hyman; Carl was interested in my proposal to move my nights there. - It was later renamed, The Phoenix Club, The Cosmopolitan Club and then Cosmo's. - I don't ever remember it being called The Continental, as stated on the Wiki page.

Carl Young is correct, I did let some younger, impressionable NF customers into the club, with warnings that if they misbehaved they would be out. - The club was there for everyone to enjoy music. My feeling was that they were drinking in a West Indian establishment in a multi-cultural area of Leeds and would be foolish to start anything. I used to talk to them, some were decent lads, who had been groomed by older men. My politics are left of centre, but I have always been tolerant of the views of other people, even if they don't fit with mine. I believed then and still do, that by giving those youngsters (most were still in their teens) that opportunity to mix with persons from other races, it might have softened their ingrained opinions. - In some cases, I know it worked.

You cannot persuade young minds by excluding them, they were mixing with other New Wave fans, the main thing they had in common was the music. By allowing them to enter, we were aware of their presence and observed their behaviour. - 'Better the Devil you know'. - During my time at Roots we did not have any altercations, fights or disturbances within the premises. None of the shows were disrupted or compromised, as erroneously stated in the original Wiki article. - There was only one encounter, when I had Sham 69 booked to play. The band cancelled at the last minute; they had been offered a BBC Top of the Pops slot because their single had entered the charts. - I managed to inform most of the members, but on the night, a mini-bus, full of older-looking skinheads, turned up alongside the club. I stood at the door and told them the gig had been cancelled and gave the reasons; the bunch of lads walked away somewhat disgruntled. - Later, I heard an unfounded story that they had gone somewhere else and caused trouble. However, I had taken down the number of the mini-bus and had reported it to the police. The police decided to take no action, which led me to think that they could have been 'agent provocateurs' and that we may have dodged a bullet.

In June 1978, a far-left magazine, The Leveller, printed an article claiming the 'F' stood for 'fascist'. This was very annoying and just wasn't true. However, in July 1978 I changed the name to The FAN Club and in October 1978, moved it to Brannigan's, Call Lane, in the city centre of Leeds. The name The 'F' Club only lasted 9 months from Autumn 1977 to Summer 1978, after that it was always The FAN Club... but to this day, people still refer to it as The 'F' Club.

The Fan Club at Brannigan's covered my favourite years in live music (1978 - 19820) so much was happening with an astonishing mix of new and vibrant acts including: U2, The Cure, The Psychedelic Furs, The B-52s, Joy Division, Echo & The Bunnymen, The Teardrop Explodes, Wah!Heat, The Human League, The Fall, Adam & The Ants, The Tourists, Killing Joke, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Altered Images, Toyah, Joe Jackson, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, Bad Manners, The Thompson Twins, Crass, Throbbing Gristle, John Otway, John Cooper Clark and lots, lots more. - Hundreds of acts and gigs with very little bother. - I can understand that tensions were high between the NF, the BM and the SWP, I was concerned about the effects it had on some of my customers and did my best to keep them safe. Incidents have been exaggerated by both sides, "What did you do in the punk wars, Daddy?". - I was in the centre of it all, had threats from both sides, but came out of it unscathed, - I ran the 'F' Club because I enjoyed it, I liked the people, the music and the excitement, I hardly ever made money out of it, but loved the scene I had helped to create.

In answer to your genre comment: The bands I booked included reggae bands such as Matumbi, Black Slate, Prince Far I, Steel Pulse, The Crusaders, Tribesman, Boudica (whose Sound System/PA I hired on a regular basis) - The Ska bands I promoted at The Fan Club included: Madness, The Specials, The Selecter, The Bodysnatchers. ('Diversity' way before it became fashionable) - Electro acts included: Suicide (electro pioneer, Martin Rev and Alan Vega), Cabaret Voltaire, The Human League, Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark, The Thompson Twins, A Certain Ratio, New Order, and lots more - In fact, my booking policy was very eclectic, I picked the best emerging acts I could find from all genres. I promoted regular packages from Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield containing many bands who went on to national fame. Mod bands performed, girl bands, rock bands, poets, comedians and local heroes... it was a club for everyone. - As it happens, I promoted very few punk acts, mainly bands like 999, The Lurkers, UK Subs, the Damned and Pure Hell (black American punks). Most of the acts were classed as alternative. - The beginnings of 'Goth' were obviously there: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, Killing Joke, Danse Society, Nightmares in Wax, March Violets, Joy Division and our regular local band, The Expelaires, whose members went off to join and help form Sisters of Mercy, The Mission, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, etc.

Alongside the F Club/FAN Club, I was booking bigger gigs at Wakefield Unity Hall: Captain Beefheart, Roy Harper, Ultravox, The Human League, Toyah, Spear of Destiny, Southern Death Cult (The Cult), Budgie, Saxon, Dexy's Midnight Runners, The Beat, Gary Glitter, The Damned. And even bigger events at Leeds Queen's Hall: Futurama 1 / 2 / 5 and at TifFANy's: The Stranglers, Squeeze, Bad Manners, Julian Cope, Killing Joke, The Birthday Party, New Order, Japan, Madness, U2. Then The Fforde Grene, The Irish Centre and The Astoria, with a few Town Hall shows. - As the tenant/promoter at The Duchess for 12 years, I put it on the touring map. After that The New Roscoe and The Brudenell. - The list goes on and is still going on.

I've written this as a record. Every detail is true - I know I was there! - I am the proper source of information. Most of the citations refer to me. I have the flyers, posters, tickets, accounts to prove it and members who can verify everything I have stated. - Maybe now you can understand why I am irritated by the piece on Wiki. About 75% is incorrect. All the information needed to correct it is in the writings above. - Please try to resolve this. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

So Frustrating! The Cure did not play at Roots in 1978 - they played at The FAN Club at Brannigan's on Thursday 15th March 1979 with The Teardrop Explodes supporting. - As I've stated many times: The National Front DID NOT bring any 'F' Club performances to a stop - Performances were never 'less frequent', I carried the club on as normal until the move to Brannigans. - There were never 'frequent altercations' between the attendees within the club - Eddie Morrison was not a regular at Roots - It has all been manufactured to make Eddie Morrison, a local thug, seem more important. - Where did you get this information? Was it from a 'reliable source' was it 'properly sourced'? - Doubt it very much, as IT NEVER HAPPENED! - Please cite the source. Much of what went on at that time was propaganda and hyped-up scare tactics. - To my understanding, although there may have been some beatings and scuffles away from the club, no one was ever seriously hurt around this time. Jozaka48 (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. For the sake of further accuracy, it wasn't a Levellers leaflet (as stated on the Wiki page)... the article was in a far-left magazine called, The Leveller. - I'm taking the time to write these things because I care, it's MY HISTORY. - I booked the acts, signed the contracts, and publicised the night. - I drew the flyers, the tickets, made the posters and pasted them up around Leeds. It was a large chunk of my life and it matters to me, if not to anyone else. - For the sake of historical accuracy, please ensure that these posts get to the appropriate people on Wikipedia who can actually make things happen. Jozaka48 (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC) Jozaka48 (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Historical accuracy is what the sources tell us, not any individual. Frustration will not lead to improvements; try to remain calm and work on specific points with reference to detailed accounts of exactly what sources apply to what claims. Use bullet pointed lists to indicate separate points i.e (see the wikitext):

• Point one
• Point two
• etc.

Large dumps of desired text interspersed with reasoning are difficult to parse. Every detail is true - I know I was there! - I am the proper source of information is simply not how Wikipedia works. At best, if your identity was proven beyond any doubt, you would be a primary source, and as such preferably avoided. Reliable sources to reference should be newspapers, magazines, books and the like. A surprising amount of documentation is archived at the Wayback Machine, Google Books and elsewhere, so scans of old music magazines and even flyers may be available for verification. There is no deadline. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 02:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not trying to write a Wikipedia article, I'm giving the correct information so the offending article can be corrected. If it's untrue, that should be pointed out. Everything I have said can be proven, unlike some of the original article, which is not proven, merely hearsay used to propagate a myth and enhance an individual's dubious reputation. - Protocols should not interfere with the truth, otherwise all history is 'fake news' and Wikipedia is a sham. Jozaka48 (talk) 10:05, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not trying to write a Wikipedia article, I'm giving the correct information so the offending article can be corrected. If it's untrue, that should be pointed out. Everything I have said can be proven, unlike some of the original article, which is not proven, merely hearsay used to propagate a myth and enhance an individual's dubious reputation. - Protocols should not interfere with the truth, otherwise all history is 'fake news' and Wikipedia is a sham.

Even after I have posted the list of acts that played in each venue, the article is still full of errors. Why were The Police not included in the list of 'Stars of Today' acts? Yet, they are the band that achieved the most prominence. Magazine is included in the Poly list, but they didn't play until the club moved to Roots, in the Spring of 1978, they were initially booked for The Ace of Clubs, but didn't play there. Siouxsie didn't play at the Ace of Clubs, she also played Roots in Spring 1978. The 'F' Club membership didn't start until I moved away from Leeds Poly in Autumn 1977, Graham wasn't involved, nor was Shaun Cavill. If you need any proof, I can send copies of flyers Jozaka48 (talk) 10:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

P.S. X-Ray Spex didn't play at Leeds Poly, they appeared at The Ace of Clubs when the 'F' Club was first formed. These are just tiny details that the article still can't get right. Totally frustrating, like talking to someone who can't hear you. Jozaka48 (talk) 10:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Information can't be included on Wikipedia unless there is a WP:RELIABLESOURCE that backs up the information, and all the information as of now, is cited. Your word does not pass the criteria for this unless it is published, like in this interview with you which is cited in the article and is also where you state Siouxsie played the Ace of Clubs: "I moved it to the Ace of Clubs in Woodhouse. I put Siouxsie and The Banshees on there". There's no mention of the Police playing because there isn't anything we can find that passes the criteria for a reliable source that states that but there is three separate sources stating there was conflicts with fascist: 1 2 3. We are trying to help you, but you aren't listening to us. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I've also looked at your citations. You prefer to use the propaganda spouted by the fascists, especially when Eddie Morrisson states that 'we (the National Party) controlled The 'F' Club'... apart from that being false, he also gets the sequence of the F Club venue moves wrong and the name of Roots. The only person who controlled The 'F' Club was me... I did not favour fascists.

Yes, some young right wingers, possibly with NF connections, came to the club, Carl was quoted saying that, as was I, but the article didn't give the reasons. There was more chance of them softening their views on black folk if they were able to mix with them in a West Indian run venue. They were told to behave and very rarely stepped out of line. To me, as promoter, as long as they were not distributing fascist material of disrupting shows, they were just average customers. When they did step out of line they were stopped and ejected or banned. It was not possible to know what anyone's political views were, so difficult to prevent them from coming to a show. The ones the regulars knew, we kept an eye on. The only disturbance at Brannigan's was when the night was given over to RAR'SWP. Not an F Club show. Even then, it was a scuffle rather than a full blown riot. - Tensions were high, much was blown out of proportion.

Generally The F/Fan Club was a safe place to visit. There were more fights in city centre pubs, more people being beaten up by random, drunken Townies... the main concern was the Yorkshire Ripper (the night after the ripper was caught, New Order played their first show out of Manchester and the place was rammed! - The writer does not recognise political propaganda when he sees it.

Other references come from the opposing political group, the SWP... more propaganda. Out of over 300 gigs, there were maybe a handful of isolated disturbances, which were quickly put under control... not by Eddie Morrison, but by myself and a couple of (usually black) bouncers. - One of my regular bouncers was Eustace, a muscular black guy who didn't take any crap from fascists. On a Saturday he used to revel in spotting the NF distributing their flyers in Lands Lane, Leeds, he used to lay into them 6 at a time. Why would they come to the club and misbehave when they knew he was working there?

My opinion was that the SWP and the LOP tackled it wrong. They printed stories where students had been beaten by a gang of skinheads... sending a message to youngsters that if you didn't join the NF, you would become a victim. Playground bully tactics. There's no denying that these events happened, but nothing to do with my club, we were just being used by both sides of small political organisations.

The SWP pasted posters all around Leeds with large swastikas crossed out, not so much subliminal, but crude... and yet still promoting the swastika as an image.- The propaganda from both sides makes it seem as though there was a continual war going on. Communists v Fascists and we were stuck in the middle... Not true, we continued as usual with hundreds of gigs featuring acts that would become massive stars, the NF was a minor worry, but only a very small part of the history of the club.. - Whatever the propagandists would have you believe The F/FAN Club was not a punk club, it was a live music club for original and creative acts from all races for the enjoyment of many people. You've seen the list of acts who played there. Do you think I would promote at a West Indian club in the heart of Chapeltown, put on acts like Steel Pulse, Matumbi, Prince Far I, Tribesman, The Crusaders, The Specials, The Selecter, The Bodysnatchers, Pure Hell, Bodicean, etc. if we were 'controlled' by the NF? - It's a load of politically hyped propaganda, which eats into the legacy of The F/Fan Club, everybody wants a piece of it, but I wasn't there on isolated occasions, I was always there! - Most of my memories of the club were that it was a happy time with some great acts, marred only by isolated incidents from a few gangs of thuggish idiots who appear to be getting more credence than they deserve. Jozaka48 (talk) 14:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, this is just your word, you need to provide a reliable source like an interview where you state that, a poster, even an old zine article to back up your point, otherwise its just one person's word against another, we can't cite personal anecdotes from a Wikipedia talk page. Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The Baguley interview was heavily edited. It jumped from The Ace of Clubs to Brannigan's omitting the whole of the time at Roots. If I mentioned Siouxsie, I was probably referring to the F Club in general. Siouxsie played at Roots on Wednesday 12th April 1978.

The Police DID play at 'Stars of Today' at Leeds Poly. Here's a section from my interview with Roar Magazine:

The beginnings of the club were in the summer of 1977. I had already promoted a few shows at Wakefield Unity Hall (The Heartbreakers / The Vibrators etc.) and at Leeds Poly. A friend of mine, Graham Cardy, had managed to gain hold of the Poly Common Room, in the Arts block. He asked me to come in with him and promote some gigs, as he didn’t have any money, I booked the main bands and he added the supports, including a couple of times, his own band The Mirror Boys. Under the banner, ‘Stars of Today’, I booked The Slits, XTC, The Police, Ed Banger & The Nosebleeds, The Vibrators, The Spitfire Boys and a few more. We had a great crowd, students mixing with townies, but all with similar ideals. I wouldn’t say it was a punk club, the music was splitting in all directions, and there were some interesting people attending gigs, talented misfits, but always with character. One girl turned up with ballerina cake decorations as jewellery another boy with laminates pinned all over his jacket, when you got close up, you could see he had cut the private parts out of porn magazines! – When the summer break came to an end, the Poly Committee told us to vacate the premises. – I really wanted to keep the group of regulars we had all together, so came up with the idea of a club, £1 to join but with discounts for members. The name came to me in a flash, I wrote a flyer to distribute at the last gig with all the details and finished it with the words: ‘Let’s get the ‘F’ out of here.

The DJ, Sean, and Graham didn’t come with me on the move to The Ace of Clubs, but Claire Shearsby did, she was an integral part of the club until the end, she had an unerring ability to tap into the zeitgeist and create an atmosphere, playing the tracks everyone wanted to hear

In reality, the club only lasted 9 months under that name. A far left-wing magazine, The Leveller, had printed a story stating that the ‘F’ stood for ‘Fascist’. There was much paranoia around that time with the NF on one side and the SWP on the other, all trying to recruit impressionable young people into their ranks. I had a policy of not allowing any of them to make the club into a political arena. It was for the enjoyment of the music. I promoted The ‘F’ Club first at The Ace of Clubs, (a former Cabaret club) and next at Roots in Chapeltown, run by a friend of mine, Carl Young. When I moved it to Brannigans in the Autumn of 1978, I renamed it, The FAN Club, but people still refer to it as The ‘F’ Club to this day.

When I promoted the Police in Leeds Poly Common Room, I only had a week or two to plug the gig, they wanted somewhere to play between London and Scotland. They asked for £70, so I thought, I can do that. – Because they had little money and no tour manager, the band asked me to book a cheap hotel where they could all share one room. I booked them into a guest house on Harehills Avenue. - After the gig, I squared the cost with the landlady, a large black woman, and showed them into the room. It was up some stairs, dark and dingy with four metal, dormitory beds under a 40w light bulb. Stuart took one look and asked if there was a coffee house open. Sting was knackered and threw himself on top of the grubby bed. I went off with Stuart, Henry Padovani and my pal Pete Smith to The Rendezvous at the bottom of Roundhay Road, which was open until 4 in the morning. Stuart was good company, lots of stories and Henry, who was Corsican, was more than entertaining. It was an enjoyable night, but I did have some regret that I hadn’t checked out the guest house first.

Do the Wiki writer really think I would say all that if it didn't happen? Does he really prefer to believe political propaganda on biased websites over my word? - As I've said, I have contracts and documented proof, I have no reason to invent stories or tell lies. If the writer sends his email address I'll send copies of flyers, etc.

Another bone I have to pick is the tendency to veer toward the Goth scene. Although I did promote proto-Goth bands, along with many, many other genres, (e.g. Bauhaus, The Cure, Killing Joke, The Cramps, Joy Division, Nightmares in Wax, Doctors of Madness) the Goth scene didn't really take off until the end of The F/FAN Club. Our regular members had formed a band, The Expelaires, who eventually broke up to join Sisters of Mercy, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, The Mission, etc. - The Sisters played their first gig at the club supporting Altered Images on Thursday 19th March 1981.

I'm not trying to take over the editing. Please read my comments. If any writer is compiling a historical document, it's important to get things right. Jozaka48 (talk) 15:11, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

If you need any further proof. Here are the first 3 years of my promotions in Leeds:

http://www.liveinleeds.com/25jfk77.htm

http://www.liveinleeds.com/25jfk78.htm

http://www.liveinleeds.com/25jfk79.htm

All that work, just to be edited down into incorrect details and quotes from insignificant propagandists.

A platform provided for unpleasant individuals, who deserve to be lost in obscurity.

Hundreds of bands and gigs, alternative entertainment every week.

The shows were organised and well run, around 98% were enjoyed by many, yet there you go...

…the fly in the ointment.

The reputation of The F/Club is sullied by unverified comments on Wikipedia.

Lies propagated by attention seeking individuals.

These myths when repeated can do a lot of damage.

The political gnats don't deserve a mention, they were merely an annoyance.

It means nothing to Wikipedia, but it matters to me.

They were great times.

My aim was always to create fun and enjoyment through new and interesting music.

Not to give credence to a bunch of tacky bully boys. Jozaka48 (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Do you have more info on the Roar Magazine article? Like when it was published and who wrote, so it can be cited. Also, being so aggressive isn't going to help this page be changed to how you like it, if anything editors are going to be turned off by you accusing them of actively sullying when all we've been trying to do this entire discussion is help you get the edits you want. Issan Sumisu (talk) 20:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not being aggressive. Most of what I've said has been ignored. I feel very strongly about this. The offending material is still there as are some of the mistakes. You give a whole paragraph to the National Party and their boasts and lies, yet they were only a significant annoyance in over 5 years of the club running. I've given you lots of material. I'm not sure if the Roar article is printed yet. - Making me jump through hoops to prove events that have been part of my life is not very helpful either... or would you prefer to ask a skinhead? Jozaka48 (talk) 20:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The editor of Roar is Len Liggins who used to be in the Wedding Present spin-off, The Ukrainians. Jozaka48 (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

There was a full page interview with me in Record Collector Magazine. There's a copy of the article on my Facebook page: John F Keenan Jozaka48 (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and the above should read, "only an insignificant annoyance" - In the whole scheme of things they meant very little. Jozaka48 (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Whilst Wiki seems so keen to obtain citations from me, especially for The Police date, how come the others were posted without a problem, even though some of them were in the wrong venue at the wrong time e.g. The Cure? Still not corrected or edited. Jozaka48 (talk) 11:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Could I get some more info on the Roar Magazine article, just an author isn't enough for a citation. If its in print just a date of publication would be enough to complete it, since you've already supplied the quote and author, if it's digital then a link. Also, maybe a link to the Record Collector Magazine article because there's a lot of posts on your Facebook page and I can't seem to find that specific one amongst it. The Cure mention is just a mistake as the citation only mentions the year, not the venue, but obviously the venue had moved by 1979. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The Record Collector article is the first thread on my Facebook page. The Roar article is due out in June. The important thing for me is to dispose of the myth that the NF had any control over The F/Fan Club. It keeps cropping up, it is propaganda i.e. lies.Yet you insist on using the White Nationalist website as a source, I've just finished a talk at Leeds Playhouse on the very same subject. Jozaka48 (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2023 (UTC)