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Contested deletion

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How do I indicate that this subject is notable? This article about a band has one source, should it also be deleted? Thanks. Shiningroad (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Occupations, genre, personal life/BLP

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Asceos, occupations in lead must be considered notable by reliable sources, not us. Reliable sources need to regard the occupation(s) integral to artist's notability. Occupations aren't listed because subject has dabbled in them or has such credits on projects. Again, it's per reliable sources. From a cursory look, I've found: AllMusic: "After changing her moniker to FKA twigs at the request of another artist named Twigs, she returned with EP2, a striking set of songs featuring production from Kanye West collaborator Arca ... debut album, LP1. Alongside collaborations with Arca, Dev Hynes, Sampha, and Paul Epworth, the album also featured more production work by Barnett herself ... FKA twigs returned with new music that August: the M3LL155X EP featured collaborations with producer Boots, as well as the full-length version of "Glass & Patron".", Pitchfork: "Building on her co-produced debut EP with Tic and her Arca-produced EP2 ... More provocative, though, is the way she and her producers ... At the same time, it's a testament to the strength of her vision that the album is as cohesive as it is, despite having so many producers involved", Stereogum: "The album has a lot of producers working on it". I haven't done the research here; I'm merely copyediting based on what's already on the article. If you want to add producer, director, etc, find and cite reliable sources that consider the occupations inherent to the artist's notability, as in she rose to prominence for them or is normally called a producer and director by reliable sources. Not mentions of credits.
Regarding the citation in the lead, if you're noting critical opinion that belongs to one source, you need to attribute it to that source, at least with a citation if you're not naming the source in prose.
"Experimental music" is a musical genre. The cited source is not categorizing her music as experimental music, it is calling her an "experimental artist". Lady Gaga, for example, has been called "experimental"; not a genre classification of her music.
Also, BLPs are written conservatively particularly with respect to subjects' personal lives and controversies. In #Personal life, the sources that were cited refer to gossip, they do not note the subject or their rep confirmed the content in question. To add personal life content, find a reliable source that gives official confirmation from subjects/their rep, not "a source said" garbage. Lapadite (talk) 08:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect birthday

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Hi, thanks to 193.63.239.132 (talk · contribs) for providing Twigs' recent interview on Louis Theroux's podcast (link) on 25 January 2021. Their conversation, beginning at 25:20:

Theroux: "You mentioned growing up in Gloucestershire."
Twigs: "Yeah".
Theroux: "You grew up in Tewkesbury."
Twigs: "In Cheltenham."
Theroux: "Oh, okay, so what's the connection to Tewkesbury?"
Twigs: "I don't know. Everything on my Wikipedia's wrong. Even, like, my birthday's wrong. It's so weird."

That she was raised in Cheltenham and not Tewkesbury has already been updated, but I'm not sure what her correct birthday may be so I have just added disputed inline templates to the birth date currently listed. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 10:19, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, the interview was released yesterday but that part of the conversation took place in September 2020. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 10:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think she's mixing things up, maybe. Vogue UK quoted that she was, indeed, born on January 16, 1988, but they too could be wrong, obviously. Meanwhile, an article from Dazed about Twigs' 32nd birthday party was published only on February 24, 2021, although that doesn't imply her birth date directly - what does confuse me is this Twitter post from January 18, 2020 from a Twigs fan account showing the same party on the Dazed article, although that also doesn't exactly imply her birth date too, although it obviously mean it's on the 18th or at most a few days before that. Confusing. Dreeaams (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Wikimandia! I updated the article. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 17:50, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the recent edit which showed that some sources state her birthday as 16 January 1988, because that is the date that was used here when Twigs herself said her birthdate on Wikipedia was incorrect. Perhaps I should have specified the wrong date when I created this section, but you'll see Wikimandia mentions it's not the 16th in the conversation above. If you manually click through the 15 edits made between here and here, you can see that her article said 16 January 1988 in the entire month of September 2020, which is when she gave the interview quoted above. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 03:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early work

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This article says: "The artist, who once worked as a hostess in a gentleman’s club..." is raising funds to help direct financial aid to strippers and sex workers, who are hurting because of shutdowns to counter the Covid 19 virus. It seems to strongly imply Ms Twigs sees herself as a former sex worker.

According to The Evening Standard FKA Twigs opens up on Instagram about past work as a hostess and launches initiative she said - "My lived experience as a very young woman in these environments has not only informed the strong and formidable woman that I am today, but also a lot of my work as a music and visual artist"

FKA twigs Raising Money For Sex Workers During Pandemic quotes her explaining what being a hostess means - “for those of you who don’t know, hostessing is when one person pays another person for their time, anything from a conversation over dinner to sex work, and the club gets a cut of the fee.”

The article doesn't seem to mention this early start to her career. If there is agreement that there are RS that substantiate her acknowledging her career started as a 19-year-old hostess, I suggest drafts of the paragraph or paragraphs that cover that, consistent with UNDUE, be discussed here first, and agreement reached they comply with BLP. BLP distinguishes between non-notable non-public persons, and notable public persons. If she was a non-notable individual, who had worked as a hostess, when she was 19, and was not covered by RS then, and was only covered by RS now because she was involved in a single event, then we would not cover her early work as a hostess.

But, as a public person, and someone known for more than a single event, does coverage of her early work as a hostess merit coverage in this article? Particularly since the reporting is not due to a scoop by an investigative reporter who found information she did not want to make public, but has been volunteered by Ms Twigs herself.

examples of BLP being used, inappropriately, IMO, to suppress information about an individual...

I know there are individuals here on the wikipedia who would argue it should not be covered, that Ms Twigs should be protected against having this information covered. We saw them come forward when the article on celebrities who had spoken about having an abortion was nominated for deletion. Wikipedia advocates of censorship argued for deleting that article because even if those celebrities weren't ashamed of having had abortions, they should have been ashamed.

There was an article about a young grandmother, whose eldest daughter came to her to tell her she was pregnant, when she was under the legal age of consent. She asked if the father of her child could move in, so he could save up enough funds to marry her. When granma agreed she ended up facing charges. She had knowingly allowed her underage daughter to have sex. She took the advice of her court appointed attorney that she could avoid a trial, avoid jail time, by pleading guilty. Unfortunately, that court appointed attorney did not advise her that her guilty plea put her on her state's list of registered sex offenders, and it meant she could never have any contact with her children, or grandchildren, and would have to live more than 1000 feet from where any schoolbus picked up children to go to school. In her case it meant living in an RV in the middle of a farm field.

We had an article on this grandma, because she made the decision to become a public advocate for the reform of her state's draconian laws on sex offenders, that included people like her, who were not actually sex offenders for any reasonable definition of sex offender. The article on grandma was deleted following an AFD where those who called for deletion argued that BLP required protecting her privacy, and thus deletion, because the article said she was a sex offender. Those who called for deletion to protect her privacy overlooked two things. First, that grandma made the conscious decision that, in the long run, she wanted to sacrifice her privacy so the public could understand her example of what those draconian laws really meant. Second, since she had made multiple appearances on national TV, and had been the subject of a profile by international magazines, like The Economist, she was not a private person, and not subject to the extra protections we give private persons.

My reading of Ms Twigs comments on her early work as a hostess is that she wants to use her example to free sex workers of demonization. If she was a nobody this would not be notable at all. But, because she is a notable person, and RS covered her efforts, I think it does merit coverage here. I think protecting her from covering this aspect of her career would actually be insulting, since she clearly decided to make it public. Geo Swan (talk) 02:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. Thanks for bringing this to discussion. Binksternet (talk) 02:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Binksternet: Are they good points, though? It sounds like Geo Swan is suggesting that FKA Twigs was a sex worker since we know she worked as a hostess (per her statement) and some hostesses perform sex work (per her statement). That's 2+2=5. I have no idea what that story about a grandmother has to do with anything, but it has nothing to do with FKA Twigs. Mo Billings (talk) 04:07, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My reading of his post was cursory, skipping over the grandmother stuff which made no sense. I also saw the Instagram post by FKA Twigs about learning a pole dance move when she was 19 and a hostess, so I was under the impression Geo Swan was asking whether the article should continue to say that she was a hostess in a strip club when she was 19, which is supported by sources. I think yes, the article should say that. We certainly should NOT be jumping to conclusions about sex work. Frankly I think the Instagram quote parameter should be removed from the citation, as it invites synthesis and conclusion jumping. Binksternet (talk) 04:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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