Talk:Eucalyptus patens

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common name

The page for the common name is blackbutt, I converted it from a dab now, inclusion in the article is to allow for any context that can be expanded on. cygnis insignis 06:16, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blackbutt is still currently a disambiguation page. The page probably needs to be split into Blackbutt (plant species) and Blackbutt (disambiguation) (with the latter including an entry for the former, rather than redirecting to it) or similar. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's both a dab and sia as you say, the suburbs taking the name of the trees they replaced I presume. Don't see a need to split, just qualify the type of ambiguity and navigation. cygnis insignis 08:52, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blackbutt

The sentence:

Also known as Swan River or Western Australian blackbutt, yarri is the preferred common name.

is not correct. The sentence's subject is the name "yarri" ("... yarri is the preferred common name."); the sentence's subject is not the tree itself. The tree might be known as the blackbutt, but the name yarri is not known as blackbutt. Hence my addition of "It is" to change the sentence's subject from the name to the tree. There may be better wording than mine, but the sentence should be grammatically and factually correct, which currently it is not.

As far as the link to the disambiguation page blackbutt is concerned, I still assert that such a link in the text is incorrect as it stands, per WP:INTDABLINK. Perhaps the appropriate fix (also per WP:INTDABLINK) would be to mention in that sentence that the name is shared by other trees. We could try changing it to

... Swan River or Western Australian blackbutt, a name shared by other Eucalyptus species ...

but that's probably not correct because the other blackbutts are not "Swan River or Western Australian blackbutts". I can't see any reasonable way to word the sentence to explicitly state that the name "blackbutt" (but not the qualifier) is shared.

Mitch Ames (talk) 06:34, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't read all this, because I changed some things around. Is there still a problem, or a way to expand the content? cygnis insignis 08:46, 19 August 2018 (UTC) I added that suggestion, "other Eucalyptus species", probably should have done that in the first place and saved you any bother. — cygnis insignis 09:02, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"... other Eucalyptus species" solves the issue of the link to dab page, so that's OK.

The second sentence still incorrectly has a word "the Nyungar term yarri" as its subject, but the modifier phrase "also known as ... blackbutt" referring to the tree, not the word.

A separate but related issue is the clause "... yarri is a preferred common name". Preferred by who? Rewording the sentence to address that might also resolve the subject/modifier mismatch - or make it easier for me to suggest a fix for the mismatch.

Mitch Ames (talk) 12:00, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the last point, I couldn't pass over 'the preferred' without seeing a way to expand it, but was comfortable the indefinite 'a' until I could return with a ref that I knew existed.

It is called blackbutt for its fire-blackened trunk. This, however, is misleading: the term 'blackbutt' normally refers to to eucalypts with pale, smooth bark and a 'stocking' of darker, rough bark at the base (e.g. several Goldfields species). 'Yarri', believed to be the aboriginal name, is preferred. — Powell, et al. Leaf and branch."Yarri, blackbutt (Eucalyptus patens)"

We couldn't hope for a clearer answer than that :) — cygnis insignis 06:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Without attempting to change the passive verb "is preferred", can we fix the subject/object mismatch with:

It is also known as Swan River or Western Australian blackbutt, although the Nyungar term yarri is a preferred common name.

Mitch Ames (talk) 08:36, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll expand out the common name facts in the body, using the above, and alter the lead to mention the important stuff. The reason was somewhat unexpected, though I recalled the name had been applied to other WA species. I can ping you when I am done, cheers for the input. — cygnis insignis 15:44, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mitch Ames: I came back to this, when the note floated to the top of my to-do, how does it sit with you now? And is anything not done (there are more species with the common name, I haven't fixed that yet though). — cygnis insignis 16:27, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The original problem is still there - a dangling modifier wherein the second sentence's subject (a tree) does not match its object (a linguistic term). I still suggest

It is also known as Swan River or Western Australian blackbutt, although the Nyungar term yarri is the preferred common name.

Mitch Ames (talk) 11:02, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again. Your suggestion would have worked, but I decided to move the naming down and note something else in the lead. I spoke to one of the authors, to make absolutely sure, and ended up overthinking what to write. Cheers, cygnis insignis 13:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]