Talk:Errol Musk

Second opinion

Pinging two kind editors who I think both offered to provide second opinions. For reasons that I assume are obvious when you read, I think it's prudent of me to get more eyes on this before moving to main space. Any comments with regards to WP:BLP guidelines? @Netherzone @Kj cheetham? CT55555 (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi CT55555, always happy to offer a second opinion. I've not thoroughly fact-checked it or gone looking for more sources, but seems to just about meet WP:GNG I think. I don't see something like WP:INHERITED being an issue. Did at first wonder if the coverage regarding having more children was WP:BLP1E though (which is policy), but not convinced that applies here. Something like [1] is obviously not a primary source, and some of the others are more focussed on Elon. Any mention of being accused of crimes always makes me cautious too (as per WP:BLPCRIME), but I don't know much about that side of things. Overall if this was AFD I'd probably go with "weak keep"... -Kj cheetham (talk) 11:58, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello CT55555, thank you for the second opinion ping. I'm going to pass on this, as the crime aspect gives me the creeps, and I have found that potentially controvertial topics are a drain on my limited time resources. I hope you understand; as you know, I think you are a very competent editor, I guess I'd suggest going with your instincts. KJ has given you some sound feedback above. Netherzone (talk) 19:06, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Netherzone and @Kj cheetham I'm going to drop the reference to crimes (for anyone reading here and wondering, quotes by his son, unproven, allegations only) and then move to main space. CT55555 (talk) 19:12, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Removal of redirect

I removed the redirect following discussion at Talk:Musk family and discussion here CT55555(talk) 15:48, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

After extensive review of this article and most of its sources, I think the redirect should be restored. The discussion at Talk:Musk family consists of one comment [2] posted on 11 November 2022 "to see if people would agree that he is notable". There is another comment in a separate section from an IP [3] on 12 November 2022 expressing concern about the lack of an article for Errol Musk. The other discussion linked above states in relevant part: I have no objection to you undoing the redirect if there's sufficient sourcing that makes Errol Musk notable.

From my view, there does not appear to be sufficient sourcing that makes Errol Musk notable, and I think it would be the most efficient use of community time to restore the redirect without another AfD discussion (but if the redirect is reverted, this is certainly an option to obtain further input). Based on my review of available and potentially available sources, this continues to appear to be an WP:INVALIDBIO without significant coverage in independent and reliable sources, and that but for his son, Errol would not be receiving the brief mentions in various Elon Musk biographies, attention in articles about other people or focused on him as Elon Musk's father, and tabloid and/or sensationalized press.

Errol has been interviewed several times, but the November 2022 churnalism round-up in Sager, Jessica (7 November 2022). "Who Is Elon Musk's Estranged Father? All About Errol Musk". People. Archived from the original on 24 November 2022. describes the coverage as "Though Errol has made headlines in recent years after the births of his two youngest children, he seemingly avoids the spotlight. While he has given a few rare interviews, much of the publicly known information about him has come from his estranged son Elon or his ex-wife Maye Musk, neither of whom have had complimentary things to say about the engineer and onetime emerald mine owner." Interviews and sensationalism are not enough to support notability, and our ability to develop a neutral and balanced article is limited by the available sources, which appears problematic per the notability guideline and WP:BLP policy.

Errol is mentioned in a footnote of a PhD thesis that is not about Elon, and as noted in that footnote, received sensationalized coverage related to his resignation from the PFP in 1983 in the pro-apartheid Die Burger (as discussed further in the Notes section of this Talk page), and appears to have received coverage on the same day The Argus (noted in the Master's thesis source section of this Talk page), which a sourced part of its Wikipedia article describes as "a prominent voice of opposition against the dominant National Party during the Apartheid years." However, this brief burst of coverage does not appear sufficient to support notability independent from all of the other sources that otherwise focus on him as Elon's father - we have no secondary coverage about the political or historical significance of his political career, and as discussed in the Lead and infobox section of this Talk page, an apparent potential to support a promotional narrative for Errol, based on how he has promoted himself in at least one other source (the Michael Vlismas (2022) biography of Elon Musk).

I have made some significant edits to this article, and made notes in edit summaries during this process. Some sources appear to have been seriously deficient, including what was labeled as Naija News but actually linked to a website labeled "WIKI" at the top of the page and "Copyright 2023. Search.Wiki" at the bottom of the page, and includes what appears to be obvious spam content in the "Mobile phones" section of the website [4]. Another source appears to have only been recycling content from the non-RS sources WP:NYPOST and WP:THESUN [5]. MyBroadband was not accessible but appears to be a forum and was used to support content stating that Errol worked for a supermarket [6]. Content stating Errol holds a patent was sourced directly to a patent record, without any indication that this was discussed by an independent and reliable source [7].

I also removed what I consider to have been some WP:REFBOMBing, e.g. a German news source cited only for Errol Musk having 7 children, because the People source already states this [8]; what appears to be low-quality listicle churnalism cited as an additional source for a description of one of his occupations [9]; an interview cited once in the article as an additional source for "the family lived in Pretoria" [10]; a Elon Musk biography as an general source without a page number for a basic statement about emerald mine ownership, and churnalism from The Independent for the same [11]. And I have not reviewed all of the sources in the article yet (The line "In 1995, Musk gave $28,000 to Elon and Kimbal as they were starting up the software company Zip2" is sourced to books that are not easily available, including one with an ISBN that does not match the title; I also have not translated to Portuguese verion of an Elon Musk biography). But I have spent a fair amount of time working to clean up this article, as a way to examine whether there has been a substantial development based on sources that could support this article, and it does not appear that notability is supported by signficant coverage nor that an encyclopedic article can be written at this time. Therefore, a restoration of the redirect seems to be reasonable. Beccaynr (talk) 03:44, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I have continued to work on the article, e.g. removal of an apparent non-RS and the content it supported [12]; fixing cites [13]; removal of excess refs [14] after the addition of another reference and content [15]; removal of content that based on recent reporting is contradicted [16]. The verifiability challenges seem to be another reason that a redirect to Musk family seems appropriate at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 22:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Emerald Mine

The first sentence on the emerald mine discussion is a bit of a mess:

"In 1969, he became a 50% owner of an emerald mine on Lake Tanganyika[2][5] in Zambia that he bought for £40,000, funded by selling an airplane for £80,000.[6][7]"

[2] is the book "Elon Musk: A Mission to Save the World", [5] is a Buffalo News article [17], [6] and [7] are Independent articles [18].

1969 seems entirely fabricated. The two sources for that part of the sentence give no date at all (the book only says "Errol was a talented and gifted engineer, an entrepreneur, and part owner of an emerald mine." and the Buffalo News article only says "Or they’d take the plane to Lake Tanganyika, where Errol had a stake in an emerald mine.") Our later sources contradict it; our Independent articles say in was in the mid-1980s and our Snopes source for a later sentence also says it was in the mid-1980s [19].

50% owner should be changed to "part owner" or some similar language, for the same reasons I outlined on the Elon Musk talk page [20]. In short, it is based only on Errol Musk's comment and there are reliable sources that say it was a minority stake [21]. And neither of the sources we give for this part of the sentence even mention Errol Musk's comment, instead only saying "part owner" and "a stake", although the Independent articles do have the Errol Musk quote if we choose to keep this part.

One of the Independent articles should be cut; the second one is a repost of the same exact article with a new headline and new first sentence [22] [23]. The main links both go to the second one now.

I suggest rewording this as: "In the mid-1980s, he became a part owner of an emerald mine on Lake Tanganyika in Zambia that he bought for £40,000, funded by selling an airplane for £80,000.[7]" (or "said he" bought, since this is just based on him). LordDiscord (talk) 04:20, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Everything you've said here seems reasonable. I wrote most of this, so quickly tried to understand where the 1969 came from. Perhaps a reading error noting 1969 appears in the same paragraph here. The 50% owner I'm certain also is a result of the Errol Musk quote in the same article, but I agree, we should give priority to the secondary source that says he is a minority owner and I think your suggested wording is a good solution. CT55555(talk) 04:36, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I noticed the views of this article shot up, so googled to see why and I see the tabloids are reporting on the opposing Musk's views of these mines this week.

https://futurism.com/elon-musk-dad-emerald-mine (not reliable source). CT55555(talk) 04:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Council role

@Beccaynr I cannot tell if we are accidentally over writing each other or if you are disagreeing with mentioning his role in Pretoria City Council. "In 1972, Errol was elected to the Pretoria City Council in his native South Africa." seems clear and it cited to: https://people.com/human-interest/who-is-errol-musk-elon-musk-father/

People is a reliable source WP:RSP

Do you consider this detail to be not suitable in some way? CT55555(talk) 17:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Note also:

"In 1972, Errol was elected to the Pretoria City Council as a representative of the anti-apartheid Progressive Party, a role he carried out while also pursuing his engineering consultancy and precious stone ventures."

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/elon-musk-family-maye-errol-b2241367.html CT55555(talk) 17:27, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, this appears to be my mistake based on how the article had previously been written, because the article had seemed to have also framed the election itself as a "claim"; but the NYT source states, "Errol, who was elected to the Pretoria City Council in 1972"; it is the additional information that had been in the article, e.g. "who said he belonged to the anti-apartheid Progressive Party" that is the "claim." Sorting through these references takes time; I appreciate your patience and follow up. On a separate note, I think as a churnalism reference, People seems to be weak, including due to some of the interview sources rounded up, and the original sources should be used. Beccaynr (talk) 17:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes. It was originally slightly incorrect as the sources were clear he was on council, what he did on council was a "claim" but both were described as a claim a few hours ago.

So we agree to keep the council role in, and leave out what he claimed to do on council? (P.S. and use the NYT?) CT55555(talk) 17:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the council election seems clearly supported by New York Times, which is an RS. As to the Who are Elon Musk's relatives? Independent source noted above, it is written by an "audience writer" and similar to People, rounds up an array of churnalism; the Independent source includes various claims and allegations, some sourced to WP:THESUN and WP:DAILYMAIL - I think this source should at best be considered a questionable source based on the content of this particular Lifestyle section listicle. Beccaynr (talk) 18:43, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Joe Sommerlad has a degree in journalism and his job title of "Audience Writer" I don't think discounts him, but noting GA concerns about the infidelity claim, I've removed the citation and replace it with a better one for his parent's name and will only add the infidelity reference if I find a better source.

I disagree with the notability tag, but am preparing a reply that I hope will persuade you otherwise, once the article is as good as it can be. CT55555(talk) 18:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I only discovered that this article had been recreated when I was recently conducting what I consider to be a form of maintenance - I had noticed Errol Musk had recently received some tabloid press, so I was checking for possible BLP violations potentially being added to the encyclopedia, and ended up here based on a search of "Errol Musk" within Wikipedia. Beccaynr (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Master's Thesis source

Unless we find it is well cited, we can't use master's thesis, but noting here:

"A further example was the case of a PFP candidate for Sunnyside in the 1981 elections, Errol Musk. He resigned from the Party in response to the call for a "no" vote. He argued that he had joined the PFP three years earlier because he believed in the need of people of "race groups other than white" participating in government." CT55555(talk) 19:52, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

This fact is cited to the Argus, 4 October 1983. CT55555(talk) 19:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I found a better source, but also sought help in getting 1980s news paper sources here. CT55555(talk) 22:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead and infobox

Hi @Beccaynr. You added a failed verification tag to the words I added describing the subject as being notable for "Anti-apartheid politics".

As per p52 of "Elon Musk: Risking it All", Michael Vlismas "Errol was politically active in the Pretoria community as an opponent of apartheid"

It seems clear to me and the academic source http://etheses.lse.ac.uk/2776/1/U615725.pdf adds to this and you may have seen the link above, only a master's thesis ""A further example was the case of a PFP candidate for Sunnyside in the 1981 elections, Errol Musk. He resigned from the Party in response to the call for a "no" vote. He argued that he had joined the PFP three years earlier because he believed in the need of people of "race groups other than white" participating in government" and I've not yet verified if it is well cited, but the first one alone surely says it as clear as day? CT55555(talk) 03:02, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate you opening a discussion - from my view, unlike the majority of the sources in the article that establish Errol Musk as 'known for' being the father of Elon, these 'What to know about Elon's father' sources, or sources about Elon that mention his father, or sources about Errol having children with his former step-daughter, do not seem to describe him as 'known for' "Anti-apartheid politics."

From my view, if he is known for "Anti-apartheid politics", multiple reliable and contemporary sources that highlight this about him should be available; or as stated in WP:WEIGHT, paraphrased from Jimbo Wales, "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with references to commonly accepted reference texts." A PhD thesis, a page from a book about Elon, and a 1983 appearance on a front page of a newspaper apparently serving the interests of an opposing political party does not seem to make this WP:DUE in the infobox "known for" parameter.

Similiarly, this seems related to the MOS:LEAD issue I tried to edit by reducing the content about his political activity, but you restored; the political part of his career does not seem to have had much notice; many sources in this article focus on Elon Musk, or are sensationalized coverage of Errol's relationship with his former step-daughter; based on the sourcing and article content about Errol's political career, compared with the other available sourcing and article content, the political career seems over-emphasized in the current lead according to the MOS:LEAD guidance. Beccaynr (talk) 03:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I think this argument relies on WP:RECENTISM and we should not be discounting important political activities just because contemporary sources tend to focus more on what is popular to write about in the 21st century. We should be mindful that the 1983 news and events both before and after are offline, and yet referenced in academia, almost certainly more than current events ever will be.

I am optimistic that my ongoing attempts to get access to offline sources will help this along, but "failed verification" implies inaccuracy, not weight. I think that should be removed. The statement meets the bar of what you quote easy to substantiate it is substantiated.

Conversations at GA and FA prioritise academic sources, analysis and well published books over news, so the sources that support his political work rank higher. That modern journalism favours family drama and avoids complex politics should not sway us in the same direction.

Hoping you will reconsider the "failed verification" tags, as the statement is both accurate and cited. CT55555(talk) 03:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I am concerned that it may be a breach of the core content policy WP:SYNTH to use minimal sources that do not describe him as "known for", and to not have contemporary sources recognizing him as "known for"; per WP:NPOV, also a core content policy, it appears inaccurate to describe him this way. It is not clear to me how the WP:RECENTISM essay relates when there is otherwise such trivial coverage of his political activity overall, so I am hoping you will accept the removal of this material from the infobox and the lead until better sources are found and more substantial content is developed. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 03:58, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree to remove it. I think therefore our options are:

1. propose a different way forward
2. seek a third opinion
3. see if my offline search finds anything that persuade either of us
4. wait to see if anyone else opines

For now I will wait. I do disagree that a PhD thesis, a Master's thesis (noted here, probably not good enough for the article) and a book is trivial. It may seems low because of the high volume of online sources. It doesn't literally need to say "known for" in a source. It is not SYNTH to paraphrase "Errol was politically active in the Pretoria community as an opponent of apartheid" into those words, but I'm also open to any suitable paraphrase you suggest. CT55555(talk) 04:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be great if you would seek a 3O. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 04:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

And to clarify for others: this discussion relates to one "failed verification" tag I added [24] to the "known for" infobox parameter, not "tags". Beccaynr (talk) 04:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Update. See https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Errol_Musk#Notes below. I've been persuaded to agree with Beccaynr. CT55555(talk) 03:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

• As a follow-up, after your removal of "anti-apartheid politics" from the "known for" parameter in the infobox, you replaced the text with "Pretoria municipal politics" and added a parameter for "party", with "Progressive Federal Party" and (resigned 1983) [25]. These additions also seem WP:UNDUE for the infobox and the lead, for the same/similar reasons as the "anti-apartheid politics" phrase, because this content is based on the same few sources with the same limited independent and reliable information:

• Elon Musk Left a South Africa That Was Rife With Misinformation and White Privilege (NYT, June 22, 2023) - a passing mention, "Errol, who was elected to the Pretoria City Council in 1972, said" (what he said about his children) and "Errol, who said he belonged to the anti-apartheid Progressive Party" (more statements about his children).
• Vlismas, Michael (2022). Elon Musk: Risking it All. Jonathan Ball Publishers. ISBN 978-1776191857. - two sentences before a quote from Errol's Facebook - "Errol was politically active in the Pretoria community as an opponent of apartheid and a member of the Progressive Federal Party (PFP), the forerunner of today's Democratic Alliance. At the age of 25 he was elected as a city councillor for Sunnyside, the youngest at the time." The book then quotes what Errol said about himself on Facebook, has more quotes of Errol about himself, quotes from a social acquaintance of Errol's, then Snodgrass Facebook post quotes about Errol as Elon's father. There is no substantial independent content or context about "Pretoria municipal politics" or Errol's membership in the PFP - however, after the Snodgrass quotes, Errol is referred to as saying "his own opposition to apartheid and Elon's decision to leave South Africa at 17 for Canada is enough indication that the family did not directly benefit from the apartheid system." There appears to be a further reason for caution here - the use of brief mentions without substantial independent and reliable secondary context or commentary has a potential to contribute to Errol's promotional narrative.
• Sussman, Gary (2003). The referendum in F.W. de Klerk's war of manoeuvre: An historical institutionalist account of the 1992 referendum (PDF) (PhD thesis). London School of Economics. - a footnote in a PhD thesis to the sentence, "Die Burger revelled in this intrigue and portrayed the PFP as divided." - the footnote text is:

  Die Burger. 5, 20 September & October 8, 1983. There were also intermittent reports of party members leaving the party. The reported resignation of Errol Musk, the PFP candidate for Sunnyside (Pretoria) election the 1981 elections was made a front-page story. Die Burger. 4 October 1983.

  The PhD thesis discusses the political landscape at the time, including Die Burger, and Errol Musk is a brief mention as an apparent example of promotional sensationalism by a newspaper that at the time supported the pro-apartheid political party by attempting to undermine the PFP. (See also e.g. Nieman Reports [26], discussing Die Burger)
• There are also Errol's statements, e.g. the Master's thesis noted above, describing what he "argued", and whatever Die Burger published on behalf of the pro-apartheid political party. Die Burger is discussed more in the Notes section of this Talk page, including my view on this being a poor source to support content based on policies and guidelines. In any event, Errol's statement's about himself are not independent support for him being "known for" "Pretoria municipal politics" or his membership in and resignation from the PFP being a "key fact" per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE such that these should be included.

Also, reliance on the Master's thesis, discussed in the Talk section above, or the Argus, 4 October 1983 source it appears to rely on does not appear to provide sufficient weight to make inclusion in the lead and/or infobox WP:DUE or to overcome the potential for WP:PROMO based on how and why Errol has appeared to promote his political career.

• As compared to the article overall and the sources generally, it seems clear that Errol is "known for" being the father of Elon Musk. For example, these six sources in the article focus on Elon Musk's father, Errol Musk:

'Elon Musk's father'-focused sources

Dolan, Kerry A. (2 July 2015). "How To Raise A Billionaire: An Interview With Elon Musk's Father, Errol Musk". Forbes. Archived from the original on 3 July 2015. Retrieved 22 February 2022. Wet, Phillip de (23 February 2018). "'We had so much money we couldn't even close our safe': Elon Musk's Dad tells BI about the family's insanely casual attitude to wealth". Business Insider. Archived from the original on 28 November 2022. Retrieved 28 November 2022. "Who exactly is Errol Musk - Elon Musk's father? His net worth, wife and children". Naija News. 2022-04-15. Retrieved 2023-09-07. Sager, Jessica (7 November 2022). "Who Is Elon Musk's Estranged Father? All About Errol Musk". People. Archived from the original on 24 November 2022. Retrieved 28 November 2022. Farah, Lynn (2022-06-15). "Meet Elon Musk's controversial father, Errol". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 15 July 2022. Retrieved 2022-07-15. Naidoo, Alicia (2023-01-24). "Who is Errol Musk? Five things to know about Elon's SA father". The South African. Archived from the original on 10 June 2023. Retrieved 2023-09-06.

Six additional "Elon Musk's father" sources in the article focus on Errol Musk fathering children with his former step-daughter:

"Elon Musk's father" sources focused on Errol Musk fathering children with his former step-daughter

Crilly, Rob (25 March 2018). "Elon Musk's father has baby with step-daughter he has known since she was four". The Telegraph. ISSN 0307-1235. Archived from the original on 26 April 2021. Retrieved 15 July 2022. Biggs, Jade (16 July 2022). "Elon Musk's dad reveals he fathered an "unplanned" child with his stepdaughter". Cosmopolitan. Archived from the original on 15 July 2022. Retrieved 15 July 2022. Farah, Lynn (13 August 2022). "'Completely normal': Elon Musk's dad Errol on dating his stepdaughter". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 3 January 2023. Retrieved 8 April 2023. Sharma, Shweta (15 July 2022). "Elon Musk's father confirms second child with his own stepdaughter - report". The Independent. Archived from the original on 15 July 2022. Retrieved 15 July 2022. Hasibuan, Linda (15 July 2022). "Ayah Elon Musk Punya Bayi dari Hubungan dengan Putri Tirinya". CNBC Indonesia (in Indonesian). Archived from the original on 11 November 2022. Retrieved 2022-11-28. (Google translated title: "Elon Musk's Father Has a Baby from a Relationship with His Stepdaughter") https://www.proquest.com/newspapers/errol-padre-de-musk-confirma-segunda-hija-con-su/docview/2690703621/se-2 Errol, padre de musk confirma segunda hija con su hijastra jana bezuidenhout]. 2022. Publimetro, Jul 15, 2022. (accessed September 6, 2023). (in Spanish) (Google translated title: "Musk's father Errol confirms second daughter with stepdaughter Jana Bezuidenhout")

And there is article content supported by various biographies of Elon Musk. While some sources currently in the article seem problematic according to policies and guidelines, there appears to be wide support available for Errol being "known" as Elon's father. Overall, I offer this follow-up comment as further explanation as to why I plan to remove the disputed content from the infobox and lead - based on the available sources, this content appears WP:UNDUE, as well as potentially promotional; in addition, both MOS:LEAD and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE appear to support removal. Beccaynr (talk) 15:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Other offline sources to add/consider

1. City developed by settlers, Pretoria News, 7 Aug 2003, Errol Musk, page 11. (quoted/cited in page 223 of Naming, Identify and the Africa Renaissance in a South African Context, PhD thesis by Mbali Aldromeda Machaba, University of Natal.

CT55555(talk) 01:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

You appear to have found a copy of the Die Burger source but have not linked to an accessible version in the article. Is it available somewhere online? Beccaynr (talk) 01:51, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

It is not online. Is there something in particular you want quoted? CT55555(talk) 01:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I would like to review the source, if a copy is available. Beccaynr (talk) 02:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Notes

@Beccaynr I'm not used to using notes, but concerned the new ones imply he was wanted to "yes" outcome for the wrong reasons.

Although relying on a Master's thesis above and the source that you have questioned, both together plus primary sourced self description all align in presenting him as wanting the "step in the right direction" as described here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/1983_South_African_constitutional_referendum#Opposition was to be supported.

I think we should try to make sure the notes don't imply anything, certainly not imply he was against progress. Any thoughts? CT55555(talk) 01:52, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

We can't use Wikipedia as a source, and what you added to the article left out the fact that the referendum excluded Black suffrage, using a presumptively non-RS Die Burger source, so I was trying to provide balance, at minimum as an interim measure so readers are not misled. The article notes he was briefly sensationalized by Die Burger to help promote the goals of a pro-apartheid political party, i.e. highlight divisions within the PFP.

The note provides context for the PFP's position, and what the referendum was about, instead of only presenting the limited text provided by the presumptively non-RS and Musk's seemingly self-serving statement. I don't think the note implies he was against progress - this was clearly a complicated political issue with genuine divisions about how to effectively achieve progress within the party. When a presumptive non-RS and Musk's own statement are used to support content, I think this would likely be better to be remove, but as a stopgap measure, another way to address what seems to be problematic sourcing and content is to add neutral context from reliable sources.

What we don't have is substantial indication that his action was significant - it was a footnote in the PhD thesis as an example of the tactic deployed by Die Burger; there is also the Die Burger, sensationalizing the resignation for its own political goals - but nothing secondary appearing to note this was a historically or politically significant action in the context of this referendum or considered as a significant action taken on behalf of anti-apartheid politics.

As a related note, in the Elon Musk biography, "Elon Musk: Risking it All", most of p. 52 is Errol talking about himself, so it doesn't seem to be an independent source that can be relied on to support that he is "known for" anti-apatheid politics. Beccaynr (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually as I write and fact check my reply here, I've just deleted it all, as upon reflection, indeed what he is notable for is being part of an anti-apartheid party, and his progressive views seem clear, but that's indeed not the same as "being known to be anti-apartheid".

You have persuaded me that we should take that the "known for anti-apartheid" bit out. CT55555(talk) 02:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

• As a follow up to this discussion, I noted above that content based on Die Burger "would likely be better" to remove, and then I considered this more, including in the context of the discussion in a section on this Talk page above about the availability of the source, where I asked about availability, you stated it was not available online, and I said I would like to review it, if a copy is available, and then I did not receive a response. I also made my own request at the Resource Exchange, beneath your unanswered request for help finding the same source.

Ultimately, from my view, this is about the discussion we have already had in this section, WP:BLP policy, and the WP:QUESTIONABLE section of the WP:RS guideline, which includes Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. As applied here, a publication recognized as promotional, specifically for a pro-apartheid political party, that also may be relying heavily on Musk's personal opinion, appears to be a source described by the guideline as "generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead". The content I removed [27] seems to at minimum be a contentious claim about Musk; as I noted above, he is cited as an example in a brief footnote of a PhD thesis related to how this newspaper sensationalized such events.

We do not appear to have independent and reliable sources providing further context or commentary about Musk's resignation; instead, what I described as a "stopgap" measure (the addition of a Notes section) does not actually seem to be an appropriate way to handle the content sourced to Die Burger, i.e. bringing in a contemporary source that does not discuss Musk at all but provides context that appears to be missing when a source promoting a pro-apartheid political party by sensationalizing Musk is used to support content.

At the top of this Talk page, the BLP policy banner says, "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article" - which is what I decided to do, based on BLP policy, sourcing guidelines, and how poor a source Die Burger appears to be for contentious material about Musk. Beccaynr (talk) 01:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

BBC interview for The Elon Musk Show

For the 2022 BBC series The Elon Musk Show https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m001d1n9/the-elon-musk-show Errol was interviewed and also mentioned in clips by Elon several times. Showed his car collection, and he discussed a robbery where he shot dead three intruders, leading to a court case. He stated he was ex-military. John a s (talk) 07:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Errol has said a robbery/killings/court case happened [28], but better sourcing seems to be needed for these WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims. Beccaynr (talk) 21:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

e.g. this is how Errol is described in a recent NYT book review of Walter Isaacson's biography Elon Musk:

Isaacson even managed to get Errol, Elon’s intermittently estranged father, to talk — though mostly what Errol offers are rambling bigoted comments (while insisting he isn’t racist) and self-aggrandizing tales (at least one of which turns out to be “provably false”).

In 2022, Errol shared his gunfight story with the tabloid newspaper WP:THESUN (reprint). Beccaynr (talk) 00:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)