Talk:Erinna

September 2014

It seems contrary to Wikipedia's policy of impartiality that, in the section Debate on The Distaff, the phrase "...it is ironic that West has argued..." should remain unchallenged.

173.21.251.144 (talk) 14:31, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Section on Distaff

I totally replaced the text on Distaff, rather than integrating new text into it, in this edit. Some of the ideas will probably make it back into the article eventually, but neither the Paton nor the Pomeroy cite appeared to support the text it was with (indeed the Pomeroy chapter cited does not mention Erinna at all!)... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Erinna/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ma nam is geoffrey (talk · contribs) 17:24, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

For the most part, this is a great article. Grammar and spelling is practically perfect, the only error I’ve found is “learnt”. (“learned” is the preferred spelling for Canada and the United States) It cites reliable sources, contains no plagiarism or copyright violations or original research, and it is neutral. The article is also very well illustrated, good job, editors, on finding those great images! The only problem is the opening summary at the beginning. Be careful to stay focused on coverage of Erinna, rather than her work, The Distaff. This problem aside, though, great article.

Failed "good article" nomination

This article has failed its Good article nomination. This is how the article, as of April 7, 2020, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: pass

2. Verifiable?: pass

3. Broad in coverage?: fail

4. Neutral point of view?: pass

5. Stable?: pass

6. Images?: pass

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far.- Ma nam is geoffrey (talk) (talk) 17:24, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Comment

This review is of insufficient quality and needs to be done again by someone else. Mujinga (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Over at WT:GA, Iazyges has kindly offered to take on this review, but I will briefly address the comments made by the initial reviewer. Firstly, while "learned" is a more common spelling than "learnt" in North American English, it is perfectly correct, and in Commonwealth English, it is not even uncommon. (And the article is in fact in British English – there are only a few regionalised uses in the article, but "coloured" for e.g. is the BrEng spelling). Per MOS:ENGVAR, BrEng spelling is perfectly acceptable. Secondly, given that the Distaff is basically the only thing that Erinna is known for, I don't feel that two sentences about it in the lead are excessive. It's 1/3 of the entire lead, which is roughly the same proportion of the length of the subsection on the poem to the body of the article. Thirdly, the reviewer gives no indication of what they think is missing such that the article fails to fulfil the criterion "broad in coverage". Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y
• No missing citations Y

Discussion

• Two citational issues need to be rectified: firstly, one of the Snyder sources are given as "Snyder 1989" (Snyder 1989, p. 91) within the text, but the Works cited and other sources give the date as 1991; please correct to the right date, or add the new source if this is a separate work. Secondly, a source is given as "Greene 2005, p. 139." which has no associated book; it seems likely because of the Greene that it is either Rayor or Manwell; please correct to whichever is right, or add a new source if it is separate. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Good spots both. Snyder 1989 is indeed the same work as Snyder 1991, I must not have been paying attention when I wrote that. Fixed. Greene 2005 must be another essay in the same collection as Rayor and Manwell, but I need to check the exact citation details there. I shall get this fixed tonight Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
    • Okay, not quite as quickly as promised, but I have now checked this and added the Greene essay to the list of works cited. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Prose Suggestions

Please note that all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion.

Lede

• who had died shortly after marriage suggest who had died shortly after her marriage or who had died shortly after she married
  • Changed
• Suggest expanding lede, perhaps with information from the reception section. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Life

• Little ancient evidence about Erinna's life survives, and the testimony which does is often contradictory. suggest changing ancient to primary
  • Not changed. I realise "ancient testimony" is a little jargony, but I think "primary sources" is even more confusing to readers not steeped in ancient history – Eusebius was writing five or more centuries after Erinna's floruit!
• placing her floruit in the sixth century BC. would link floruit and explain what it means.
  • Added link
• The latest date given for Erinna in the ancient testimonia is that provided by Eusebius, suggest the latest date given for Erinna by primary sources is that of Eusebius
  • See above
• according to Asclepiades shortly link Asclepiades and explain his relevance
  • Will have to check which Asclepiades I am referring to here. Probably Asclepiades of Samos, but will confirm later and add link.
• though the earliest source to explicitly fix her date of death at age 19 is the Suda. suggest mentioning that the Suda is from the 10th century either here or when it is introduced.
  • I added a gloss at the first mention of the Suda
• that she did compose the poem when she was that age suggest that she composed the poem when she was that age
  • I like the emphatic did here to focus the sentence on the dispute about whether Erinna's dramatic age was the same as her actual age, but on reflection the syntax is unnecessarily convoluted. Changed to she did not necessarily compose the poem when she was that age.

• Introduce the following people with their occupation where they are mentioned: Sylvia Barnard, Donald Levin, Marylin B. Arthur.

The Distaff

• from Oxyrhynchus, PSI 1090 suggest recovered from Oxyrhynchus, PSI 1090
  • Changed to discovered at Oxyrhynchus
• two quoted by Stobaeus and one by Athenaeus. suggest two as quotations by Stobaeus and one by Athenaeus.
  • Not changed – I can't work out why you prefer your suggestion. Maybe I'm missing something? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Introduce the following people with their occupation where they are mentioned: Maurice Bowra, Martin Litchfield West, Julius Pollux, Marylin Skinner, Diane Rayor, Kathryn Gutzwiller, John Rauk.

Epigrams

• Introduce the following people with their occupation where they are mentioned: Sarah Pomeroy, Jane McIntosh Snyder.

Reception

• "sweet, maidenly coloured crocus" suggest linking crocus.
  • Added
• bear out the poem's ancient reputation suggest support the poem's ancient reputation
  • I can see why you have suggested this, but Plant puts this very strongly, and I think "support" significantly undersells his position: he says that the surviving lines "prove" that the poem's ancient reputation is "fully justified". Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• Introduce the following people with their occupation (and time period when ancient) where they are mentioned: Antipater of Thessalonica, Meleager, Antiphanes, Callimachus, Ian Plant, and Eva Stehle.

Notes

• Other scholars, including Barnard 1978, Manwell 2005, and Rayor 2005 accept the epigrams as being authored by Erinna without explicitly addressing the dispute. think this would be better included directly in the text. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:25, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Changed Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

External links

• Poem about Erinna would suggest renaming to Antipater's poem about Erinna
  • Changed
• @Caeciliusinhorto: Once citational issues are dealt with I can pass this article.
  • I have commented on the changes I have made inline; I will come back to your other comments later. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 13:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Iazyges: Okay, I have changed most things, and justified a few not-changed things inline. A more general point you bring up multiple times is "introduce x with their occupation" – I have not done this because I find that it breaks up the flow of an article. In all the ancient cases, there is a wikipedia article linked where the reader can go to find out more; in the modern cases, not all of them have wikipedia articles but they are all classicists, and in (almost?) all cases the article or book in which they made the point quoted is referenced, so it should be fairly clear to the reader why their opinion is worth taking into account. And many times there are several people who might benefit from introducing all clustered together, which magnifies the awkwardness of the resulting prose:

In antiquity, Erinna was highly regarded; the only Greek woman poet to be better thought of was Sappho, though today she is little-known. The Roman-era poet Antipater of Thessalonica included her in his list of "nine earthly muses". Several other epigrams collected in the Greek Anthology praise her, and in the Roman-era poet Meleager's "Garland" her work is compared to the "sweet, maidenly coloured crocus". The only negative ancient testimony about Erinna comes from an epigram by the Roman-era poet Antiphanes (AP 11.322), which itself attests to Erinna's high reputation among the followers of the Hellenistic poet Callimachus. All of this ancient testimony about Erinna suggests that she was a major figure in Hellenistic poetry.

I hope this covers all of your comments. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)