Talk:Erik Werba

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 23:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Erik Werba

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• ... that Erik Werba accompanied singers such as Irmgard Seefried and Peter Schreier, and was professor at the Wiener Musikakademie from 1949 to 1990? Source: [1]

• Reviewed: RISE project (oceanography)
• Comment: best on his birthday, May 23, and sorry for being late

5x expanded by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 20:16, 19 May 2019 (UTC).

Unfortunately, I don't think the hook appeals to a broad audience. It requires knowledge of names that are not well-known outside of opera circles, and there's nothing else in the hook that would catch the attention of those unfamiliar with the subject matter. Looking at the article, I regret to say that I have not been able to find anything that could interest a wide audience. If you can find some more information about his life or career that could raise interest, please do it so that a new, more appealing hook can be proposed. But right now, the article and hook are not looking like DYK material. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:59, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Sigh. We could end the hook at "singers". It's quite unusual that a pianist is not known for solo work but for accompaniment. All the rest is extra for those who want to know a little more, the singers have links (and should get known if they aren't already), and how teaching for more than 40 years - which means shaping the playing of more than a generation - isn't interesting, is beyond me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:42, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, as there appears to be nothing in the article that could be used as a DYK hook that could interest a broad audience, I sadly have to mark this nomination for closure. Not all articles are right for DYK and this appears to be such a case. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:58, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

  So just because you don't know that these singers were about the greatest at their time, and you think shaping two generations of pianists is not something of interest to the general reader, you mark for closure? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

  Repeating: the guidelines ask to be interesting (unusual, worth knowing), which is not the same as appealing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

It's not that, it's simply that the hook doesn't appeal to a general audience, only to those who are familiar with Seefried and Schreier (who are presumably not the majority of our readership), and the hook lacks context that would catch the attention of even someone uninterested in classical music. And yes, interesting is not the same as appealing, but there is significant overlap. Let's put it this way: let's say for example I was an average reader. I do not know who these Seefried or Schreier people are. I have no idea why they are important. I see that there is a hook where this person (Werba) was mentioned as performing with them. Unless I know who Seefried or Schreier are, I would have no idea why this is such a big deal. And that's the problem here: there's nothing in the hook that would allow those who are not "in the know" to appreciate the hook. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 01:41, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry to have another language difficulty. I think you equation of "interesting" with "has to appeal" is your personal interpretation. I say that "interesting" only means "not trivia, not something that everybody knows already". I am tired of it. Do we really have to discuss at WP:DYK once more, or could you perhaps just leave the topic alone? - Today: Ernst Gutstein, just sad that we mention a minor role in a minor old opera, instead of a signature role in a well-known one at a major well-known house + a new role at a notable festival. Why? To insert "castrato" which appeals to those looking for sex-related things. I am ashamed. If Gutstein was still alive, I would have fought harder, but my time on Earth is limited, so I let t go, but still ashamed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:55, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• Vacating close per an appeal by the nominator at WT:DYK. A second reviewer probably needs to take a look at this, at the very least. Pinging Mandarax as they had replied at the discussion. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 08:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Gerda mentioned in the appeal that she believes that teaching at the Wiener Musikakademie is considered a big deal in the classical music world. If this is the fact that she wants to emphasize, then it might be a good idea to simply focus on this fact. So a new hook would go something like:

• • ... that Erik Werba was a professor at the Wiener Musikakademie from 1949 to 1990?

The thing is, non-classical music fans are unlikely to be familiar with the Wiener Musikakademie, so additional context needs to be added in the hook explaining its significance. Gerda, if you can find some additional information about Werba's tenure in the university and add it to the article, that would be quite helpful. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 08:43, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for reopening. I said "for decades", meaning that he influenced generations of pianists. The word "piano" is missing in your ALT, so striking. He was known as an accompanist - vs. soloist - and that made him special, and should be mentioned. I'd think specific name would add colour, but want to please. We could mention DFD, the most famous at the time and still, but he gets mentioned often, - I'd pefer some others, as in the original hook.

ALT2: ... that the pianist Erik Werba, known as accompanist of lieder singers, was professor at the Wiener Musikakademie for four decades?

Sorry, we are not going to establish the importance of the leading academy in the city where Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven worked for every person teaching there, - we do have a link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: How bout your alt 2, but inverted? You know, people think of a professor as being "just" a dull academic (the plain old ignorant reader!), but that he laos performed as well makes him quirky(er)? (For an academic, anyway)...like

:: ALT2.1: ... that the pianist Erik Werba, professor at the Wiener Musikakademie for four decades, was also an accompanist of lieder singers?

——SerialNumber54129 11:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't care about the order, wanted the most important thing first but understand last also. Only, why "also"? - Btw, two days ago, I accidentally heard "him" on radio, acompanying Ernst Haefliger in Schwanengesang. He's still a presence! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, "also" is really saying that he walked the walk as well as talked the talk  :) but it's not that important. Remove the also. ——SerialNumber54129 12:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

ALT2.1 is the best available hook so far. Are there any other suggestions before I go ahead with ALT2.1? Flibirigit (talk) 15:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Please remove at least the "also". He accompanied the greatest singers of the period, but it seems to long ago. He is known in the serving role of accompanist, not soloist or playing with orchestra.

ALT2.2: ... that the pianist Erik Werba, professor at the Wiener Musikakademie for four decades, is known as an accompanist of lieder singers? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - ?
• Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article was expanded fivefold within seven days of the nomination. Article is barely long enough at 1543 characters. Sourcing is adequate. Article is neutral in tone. Attribution has been given for the French language Wikipedia source. No copyright issues detected. The photo used in the article is properly licensed. The sentence in the article which states Werba was a professor for four decades needs to be cited at its end to qualify the remaning hook, ALT2.2. Also, "accompanist of lieder singers" needs to appear somewhere in the prose, and be cited. At the moment, "accompanist" and "lied" do not appear in the same paragraph. I have struck all other hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 19:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I added the word lieder to his focus. The source says "Er wurde selbst legendär an der Seite so vieler "Legenden" des Liedersingens:", He became legendary at the side of so many legends of lieder singing". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, that takes care of half of the hook. The other sentence "Werba was a professor of lied and oratorio at the Wiener Musikakademie from 1949 to 1990" needs a citation at the end to verify the four decades at the academy. I do understand German, and I can read the sources :-) Flibirigit (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Other half done. (sorry forgot to sign then)

approving ALT2.2. Both halves of the hook are now properly cited and mentioned in the article. I have verified the German sources since I am able to read the language. Flibirigit (talk) 22:25, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Not without irony that it should have come for his birthday, and too bad that readers are not supposed to click on the names of wonderful singers if they don't know them ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)