Talk:Erich von Manstein/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 00:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much ! — Dianna (talk) 02:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comments by MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:28, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• He was mentioned eight times in the Wehrmachtbericht, not many German soldiers were mentioned that often (Kesselring 14x, Mölders 11x), maybe worth mentioning
• "Manstein received the Swords of the Knight's Cross—the third highest German military honour—on 30 March 1944" the Swords to the Knight's Cross were never Germany's highest military honour!
• Manstein's recommendations regarding the Bundeswehr included more than just length of service, I think this should be expanded
• His son in law, Heinrich von Lingenthal-Zachariae, was a Brigadegeneral in the Bundeswehr, maybe worth mentioning

• Hi Mr Bee. If you have some sources for the new information, I will add it in. Regarding the Bundeswehr, the two biographies I have available have no further information on that topic, so if you have some sources/information please let me know. Thanks. -- Dianna (talk) 13:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I will be adding here based on the book: Knopp, Guido (2000). Hitlers Krieger. Goldmann Verlag. ISBN 3-442-15045-0

According to Guido Knopp, page 170, Manstein spoke to the legislative body of the Bundestag on 20 June 1953. He lectured on his view of the defensive analysis, strategic power constellation, professional army or draft and advised that the German army needed the draft of at least 18 months, better 24 months. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Knopp, p. 178. The wound sustained on 17 November 1914 damaged his sciatic nerve leaving his right leg numb. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
• Manstein proposed to his wife only three days after he first met her. Knopp p. 180 and p. 197. His daughter, Giesela married Edel-Heinrich Zachariae-Lingenthal
  • I have added this material as requested. -- Dianna (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Preliminary comments

• The WWI section needs expansion.
  • He graduated from the Prussian War Academy before the war began? I thought it was a multi-year course of instruction? Y
  • Detail what units he was assigned to during this period. Y
  • How was he wounded? Y
    • All this looks good, but please trim the details about the surrender in Nov. 1918.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC) Y

• Inter-war era
  • Detail which units he was assigned to.Y Also expanded section a bit. -- Dianna (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Provide the abbreviation of Sturmgeschütze immediately after first use.Y
  • Were Manstein and Halder rivals to replace Beck in 1938?
    • Manstein urged Beck not to resign, and was disappointed that he did not get the post. I will add a bit about this incident. -- Dianna (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• Poland
  • Was the term "Einsatzgruppen" used in Poland? I thought it wasn't introducted until Barbarossa.
    • It looks like the term was used in Poland. Evans (2008; page 16-17 of the paperback edition) says Heydrich formed five Einsatzgruppen, later increased to seven, to follow the soldiers into Poland in 1939. He says they rounded up and killed intellectuals and potential members of the resistance. Shirer (1960; pages 958-959) says the Einsatzgruppen were at first tasked with rounding up Jews to place them in ghettos, and were repurposed as killing squads two years later for Barbarossa. -- Dianna (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • IIRC, the Battle of the Bzura was an abortive Polish counterattack that the Germans ended up crushing. If I'm correct, then clarify that this was not something that the Germans planned, but rather did on the fly.
    • I will add what I can find. -- Dianna (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • What does the bombardment of Warsaw have to do with Manstein?
    • Nothing, just general information regarding how the Poles were defeated. Should it be trimmed out? -- Dianna (talk) 00:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Please, this is already a long article and I think that we can assume that people either know the basics already or will look them up through the links.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC) Y

• France
  • I found this section confusing, probably because the first paragraph seems to be an attempt to summarize the whole process, unlike the chronological exposition used earlier.
  • The Manstein Plan article seems to mirror what I remember about the complex development of the war plan and should be used as a guide for this section.
  • This is awkward: The plan was after the event nicknamed Sichelschnitt (sickle cut).
    • Re-writes of this section are ready for your review. Thanks. -- Dianna (talk) 00:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:52, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

• • Be sure to use Roman numerals for all German Corps to reflect German practice and link them throughout the article. Y

• Barbarossa
  • Link SS Polizei Division. Y
  • Maps illustrating the principal combats would be very useful.
    • I added two maps. Do you have any other specific maps in mind? -- Dianna (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Crimea
  • Provide conversions for the guns used here and also link to the 60 cm guns (Karl-Gerät). Y
  • Didn't Hitler promote Manstein as a reward for taking Sevastopol? If correct, say so.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
    • It seems self-evident that was why, but none of the sources word it that way. I found a book online that gives a specific date, so will amend the content to agree with that. -- Dianna (talk) 03:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
    • I think all requested items have now been addressed; ready to carry on when you have time. -- Dianna (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

• Leningrad
  • How about a map for this operation or his earlier operations as part of Army Group North? Y Added one, though it does not pinpoint all the locations mentioned in this article.

• Stalingrad
  • Combine first two paras. Be sure that cite 81 supports date 4th Pz Army entered the city. Y Cite 81 checks out, but 4th Pz Army is specifically mentioned at the bottom of pg 409, so I have tweeked it.
  • 23rd Panzer Grenadier Division is properly 23rd Panzer Division, not Panzergrenadier. Be sure to link to the division's article as well as any other divisions like the 336th (red links are perfectly acceptable). Y

• Kharkov
  • What unit was Hausser commander of? Mentioned later, but move that to the first appearance. Y
  • I'd suggest using the term Backhand blow somewhere here as Manstein's counterattack is famous under that name. Y
  • Consequences of the German victory here seem a bit understated. Mentioning the Soviet casualties is good, although the numbers seem a little low, IIRC, but need to emphasize that the counterattack recaptured lots of territory lost to the Soviet offensive as well decisively defeating it. Y

• Operation Zitadelle
  • Standardize if you're going to use German names for operations first or their translations. Y
  • 9th Army was not a panzer army. Y
  • This reads awkwardly: until his own reserves had all been committed. But Hitler was adamant. Y Reworded
  • Soviet losses at Prokhorovka were very heavy, but hardly decisive. Y changed "disastrous" to "serious"
  • Can we get a map that focuses on the southern pincer for this section? Y

• Kursk Dnieper
  • Link to the Dnieper River. Y
  • Specify that all the units listed at the end of the first para were divisions. Y

More later--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your excellent advice. I think all items are completed; ready to advance when you have time. -- Dianna (talk) 02:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As a drive by question/comment, was the estate Manstein bought in 1944 part of the scheme in which Hitler bribed his senior generals with property? (and, from memory, other goods) - the timing would be about right. If so, this should be briefly noted. Nick-D (talk) 06:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip; Lemay speculates (page 431-432) that this may have been the case, but says he found no proof. My other primary source (Melvin) does not mention the endowments. -- Dianna (talk) 00:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Dniepr campaign
  • Link to 17th Army, 1st Panzer Army Y
  • 1st Ukrainian Front was not brigade sized; it was roughly the size of a German army. Y

• Bibliography
  • Delete page count from McKale Y
  • Weinberg needs publisher location Y

Fix these few niggles and we'll be done here. I think that you should submit this article to an ACR and then send it to FAC.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Sturmvogel. Your expert knowledge of the subject matter helped pinpoint where material was missing or needed to be better laid out, and now we have a fine article the whole Milhist crew can be proud of. Best wishes, -- Dianna (talk) 00:39, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but there's one small mistake to fix before I can promote this. Link to the German 17th Army, not the Soviet one.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done (*blushes*) -- Dianna (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail: