Talk:Emo

Post-punk connection?

Despite emo's roots in the hardcore scene, when one looks at the "emo" themes of today, it seems to me that there's also some kind of lineage back to "post-punk" bands like Joy Division and even The Cure and Depeche Mode. I don't know even remotely as much about emo as most contributors here, but am I completely tripping by seeing this connection? 76.197.242.108 (talk) 01:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you maybe correct. The problem is whether there is a source for it. --neonwhite user page talk 00:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is Fall out boy on the emo list

Wtf? Since when was Fall out boy ever "emo"? Their band has absolutely NO emo elements whatsoever. Hell, even Rage against the machine is more emo than Fall out boy, and they aren't even an emo band. Just because their band members wear emo clothes does not mean that their music is. I suggest that someone correct this soon, before I have too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.234.10 (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Since the media call them that. [2][3][4]

--neonwhite user page talk 23:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

But they are still not an emo band. They may share clothing similarities but that is not enough to define a bands music style regardless of what the media thinks. How about a seperate list from bands that have been called emo to bands that meet the standards to be emo and therefore are emo.72.81.226.247 (talk) 02:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

The media, in this case, are verifiable sources, this is what articles on wikipedia are based on. This is policy and the only standard we use. --neonwhite user page talk 03:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that the media was not a verifiable source I said that Fall Out Boy wasn't an emo band and they are not. As the media calls them an emo band we can say that they are a band that has been, uh, called emo by the media, but with just media (varifiable but not reliable), that really is as far as we can go. Since their music style not really emo as they lack almost all elements required we cannot say they are disinctly an emo band, that is why I suggested a seperate list.72.81.226.247 (talk) 03:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

That's only your personal opinion, unfortunately it counts for nothing as far as wikipedia is concerned. Genres have always been defined by the media. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability for info on how information is sourced. If information is verified it can be included. --neonwhite user page talk 19:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You cannot argue with me about something I did not say. Reread my post. I agreed with you as far as varifiability and I still do. I also agree that if it's varifiable it can be used and I never said it could not. Thus, because the media is varifiable, and varified, it should be included. I take issue with the reliability and the confusion it causes. Several parts of the media say Fall Out Boy is Emo but other parts call them Pop Punk. The media usually gets these two genres confused. That is why I suggested lists. One list for bands that have been called emo by the media (like Fall Out Boy), and one list for bands that can be defined, beyond the shadow of doubt, as emo (Hawthorne Heights).72.81.226.247 (talk) 22:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

The only way wikipedia defines anything is by using verifiable sources such as the media. So the lists you suggested would be identical. --neonwhite user page talk 18:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see the problem. I do not think I have communicated the lists a clear and understandable way. Sorry. What I mean is since the media has already, more or less, defined the emo and pop punk genres, and since the media has contradicted itself on the classification of some bands (Fall Out Boy and some others listed),we make two lists. One list for bands in which the media has contradicted its classification, and the other for bands have been called emo by the whole media. Or do no such bands exist? If so then your right, the lists would look identical, and I will drop the issue.72.81.226.247 (talk) 01:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

Genres are always subjective and open to personal interpretation. Different songs, different albums have different styles. I'm not sure it matters that some articles refer to them as a different genre. Stuff about pop punk and bands noted as such, really belong on the pop punk page. I doubt anyone is going to be confused by a band being included on the pages on several different genres when the genres are linked. --neonwhite user page talk 02:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

True enough. Still from what I've read on this discussion page some people are getting confused and some others are getting angry. Usually I wouldn't care, but I'm afraid this could lead to vandalization of this article. Suggestions anyone, or leave as is?72.81.226.247 (talk) 14:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

Though it's worth little, my opinion would be that Fall Out Boy are very emo, their image is emo, their music has an emo tone and the song subject matter is also emo. Not that thats a bad thing, i like some Coheed and Cambria and thats quite emo. I'm also having a pretty hard time understanding why you might think that Rage Against the Machine has anything to do with the emo genre. - Crabid (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't completely understand what 'emo' means (who does?) but I'm thinking that something like this approach can be found in very early rock'n'roll recordings by people like Little Richard, Johnnie Ray, Jerry Lee Lewis, Screamin' Jay Hawkins (and a cadre of blues artists that might even include Robert Johnson), Arthur Brown (musician). Maybe it'd help in defining what 'emo' meant/means in later rock by comparing/contrasting it with the work of these pioneers. Twang (talk) 25 February 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.245.224 (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not wish to sound rude, but your opinion is incorrect. First, if by image you mean their clothing style, heh, you can't define a bands music style by their clothes. One of the reasons I say this is because aside from, well, it's wrong, almost all bands, be they emo punk, pop punk, indie, etc, use the emo style of dress. In my opinion it's because this style of dress is popular among us kids today (specificly teens in high school). In other words it's a way of marketing themselves to us. Second, I should like to know what songs you are listening to because they really haven't done that many that fit the emo discription of music. Some? Maybe (and what modern band hasn't made songs that sound emo), but definitly not most. As far as emo being bad, no one said it was. In any case the arguement is not that we should remove them (we have sources that call them emo, and thus, they belong on the list), but that we should do something to reword it or something to that nature, because it may attract vandals. BTW when I say modern, I mean bands that are popular/semi-popular to the younger generations of today.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 02:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, almost forgot don't forget to sign your posts by typing in four tildes, and mister twang, your approach sounds like OR to me.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 02:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

HOLY CRAP, BATMAN!!! WTF?!!!

WTF happend to the article?! It now looks like it was written by someone who listend to the song "Emo Kid" way to many times!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.154.42 (talk) 04:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the article was vandalised by Roblew, but luckily this was caught by ClueBot, and it is now back in it's full glory! —Jimpaz (talk) 05:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.81.226.247 (talk) 01:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish my grass was emo

Is there any way we can incorporate the famously hilarious t-shirt with a picture of a lawnmower and the caption "I wish my grass was emo so it would cut itself" into this article? EAE (Holla!) 07:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's hardly encyclopedic content. --neonwhite user page talk 17:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

this article has undergone extensive changes since my last post.it was previously a one page slur on emo and not a factual depiction. Raycore (talk) 20:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

your last post was 8 hours ago the article has not changed at all in 2 days and has had no major changes for months. --neonwhite user page talk 21:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

possibly a malfunction on my computer, but I swear this article was vandalised yesterday morning. also, you are way too into this.Raycore (talk) 09:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh, yes it was vandalized and therefore changed. No malfunction. Someone mucked with it and it was just a one page slur on the term based on the stereotype of emo(you know, my life is a black abyss, I like making out with people of the same gender, I dress in drag, I cut myself because life is too hard, that kind of crap). Oh and btw, you could add that picture, but only under the stereotype section to give people a better understanding of how some people feel about the steroetype of emo.72.81.226.247 (talk) 02:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

Another problem with Post-hardcore

Now the genre of post-hardcore appears a fusion genre of emo...and it is completely wrong, emo derivates from Post-hardcore and not the other way around and I am truly disturbed about this misinformation...I could find references to prove this information wrong, but please, change it...At The Drive-In and Fugazi are very different things to Rites of Spring and Sunny Day Real State. The-15th (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The articles does not say that. Please be more clear here. --neonwhite user page talk 00:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear The-15th, what?72.81.226.247 (talk) 00:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)ForTheWin

This information appears on the genre box...and I think it's clear enough that emo derivated from post-hardcore to understand that IT POST-HARDCORE IS NOT A FUSION GENRE OF EMO. Emo shouldn't even exist at all, here look at this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdh0Qm_5A0

So is anyone gonna change the information fo the genre box? I'm going to keep discussing this until it GETS CHANGED. The-15th (talk) 19:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

i think it is considered they both evolved from hardcore punk. Though both terms are incredibly ambiguous. --neonwhite user page talk 00:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Print sources

Is there any reason why verifiable print sources that contradict the assertions of ChrisB are not used for this page? For instance, he insists "emotional hardcore" was never used prior to 1996 (according to online sources), but it was used by Ian Mackaye in a live Embrace set recorded in 1985. HeartAttaCk and MRR would also go far as verifiable source. I have a hard time accepting he is approaching this page with a neutral point of view when reliable print sources are discarded for unreliable online sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.143.226 (talk) 08:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I said that "emotive hardcore" wasn't used before 1996. Emo stood for "emotional hardcore" for most of its existence. The whole "emotive" thing didn't happen until recently. -- ChrisB (talk) 20:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Addition to criticism

I have added the point of view of established British bands on the arrival of Emo in Britain. This is backed up by an article regarding the issue from the BBC. Stealthorpe (talk) 11:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I refactored it. Please note you can only write what the source says. See WP:SYN. --neonwhite user page talk 16:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! As you can tell I don't know what I'm doing and need a little guidance sometimes!

82.45.100.175 (talk) 16:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your welcome. This page might help. If you need help then you are welcome to ask. --neonwhite user page talk 18:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bullet for my Valentine

I think it would be appropriate for "Bullet for my Valentine" to be added to the little bit about screamo in the section about the third wave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.24.9 (talk) 04:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Why? They don't seem to be a band of any major importance. --neonwhite user page talk 05:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding? In modern day theyre one of the main bands classed as emo/screamo. Just because you dont like them or havent heard of them doesnt mean they deserve a place in this article due to their popularity in the current emo scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.24.9 (talk) 21:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

They just arent that important. They aren't that popular and regardless popularity does not equal importance. Find some articles that cite them as an important or notable band within this genre. Even if they are known by this genre which their article suggests they aren't. --neonwhite user page talk 23:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Pitchfork and Drive Like Jehu

Pitchfork (formed 1986) http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Pitchfork_%28band%29 and Drive Like Jehu (formed 1990) http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Drive_Like_Jehu (both featuring John Reis/Speedo from Rocket from the Crypt and Hot Snakes) were both from San Diego and huge influences on 1990s emo--should someone add this to the article?

Sources: "It's often easy to forget that DLJ were considered emo in their day" (Pitchfork.com) http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/d/drive-like-jehu/yank-crime.shtml

"Posthumously, Drive Like Jehu's music has been cited as a catalyst for the reemergence of emocore and for the prolific San Diego music scene of the 1990s." (Wikipedia, http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Drive_Like_Jehu)

Stereotypes

The section on criticism notes that "Male fans of emo found themselves hit with homosexual slurs". This seemed to me like it also belonged in the "Fashion and stereotype" section, and I made a note in that section mentioning the sexual stereotypes that go along with the emo fashion (as referenced in the song parody: "can't two...or four guys make out without being 'gay'?"). This was deleted as "OR". Debatable, but let that stand for argument's sake. At least be honest and delete the similar remark in the "Criticism" section. Either it should be mentioned, or it shouldn't. My edit was only duplicating information already included (without apparent controversy) elsewhere in the article. To say that it's too contentious for one section but not another is self-contradicting. Carolynparrishfan (talk) 17:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I won't comment on the content at hand, but keep in mind that if you add content, people will notice and possibly revert. The existing content may have gone unnoticed by the people who reverted your duplicating it. --Cheeser1 (talk) 18:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It may have been removed as original research because you not did copy the citation as well. in this case it is sourced from this article [5] so it isn't original research but could easily have looked like vandalism if the text was added without the source.

--neonwhite user page talk 22:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Kasabian Criticism?

A lot of bands have complained about emo, what makes kasabian special? Would it be alright to delete it?--Yomoska (talk) 08:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

no, it recieved significant coverage including being reported in The Sun and NME [6] [7]. --neonwhite user page talk 16:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

mey omilor !

bah da de limba romana nati auzyt !?! puii mei...bagatio si paia ca eu nu pricep NIMIC ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.170.169 (talk) 16:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

...?13Tawaazun14 (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Proper abbreviation of D.C.

Though I doubt this will be read:

The official version contains the periods. DC is the postal code.

Sources for "D.C.": various dictionaries (Websters, Random House, American Heritage), various encyclopedias, AP Style Guide (view how the Washington Post abbreviates it for a good example).

A unilateral change of this type is not acceptable without prior discussion. If you feel this change is necessary, you MUST provide adequate sources (e.g., official documentation) and enter discussion. However, given that nearly all available sources include the periods, you'd have to make a very convincing argument to see the change through. -- ChrisB 05:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Response to edit summary: NYC is not a fair comparison, as "N.Y.C." is not an official abbreviation. "D.C." is an official abbreviation. Additionally, "everybody uses DC" is original research. While DC is commonly used, it's widely used because it is the postal code. Again, this change should not be made without WIDE consensus - it affects countless pages on Wikipedia. And this article should not be the first place to see this change - the change should be handled on the pages for D.C., etc, in order to establish the precedent. At the moment, Wikipedia's standard is "D.C.", and this page should reflect the standard. -- ChrisB 23:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

haha i am emo and i am so sexey )

Helped TRULY!!

I altered the band lists to fit it, seeing as how everyone's listing what one person says or thinks as what is true. Actually, I think what bands are emo and not is totally opinionated, but I'll play along anyway. So anyway, despite what past articles said, I removed Coheed & Cambria (they are alternative rock, if not metal!), Panic! and FOB (both on the pop scene, and not at all emo), and The Used (half punk half alternative). I didn't add any because I might hurt someone's feelings as what happened to me. No need to thank me-Zanny77 17:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not helping. The list is fine; people try to change it every day, and it is truly aggravating. Please just leave it as it is; if anything, we should be adding to it. Chubbles 21:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well there Chubbles, maybe I could help if you would stop vandalizing it w/ incorrect lists (BTW check my page! Wai, a new userbox w/ a message!) So if you would kindly change it and not vandalizing it, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. :)Zanny77 17:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Be careful what you call vandalism. Arbitrarily removing bands from an established list without discussion might just as well be called vandalism. The bands on that list have been placed there with a cited source. If you think they do not belong, you need to enter into a conversation here. You need to either provide evidence or make a convincing argument for why these bands should not be listed in a list that starts, "Correctly or not, emo has often been used to describe such bands". Chubbles 23:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I honestly can't tell if you've even ever heard of those bands, but they do not even fit in the category of emo (even though it has been so skewered, that most people don't even know what it is.) I can give up the fight for The Used, I have realized they may just be emo. FOB and Panic! I don't really care about, but the only band I really want to make a case about is Coheed and Cambria. They are definitely not emo, in fact, if you actually listen to some of their songs, in some they are very heavy (I admit they aren't in some). They are definitely a genre-bender, as they can fit in any of numerous genres, such as orchestrated rock (they like violins and stuff), hardcore rock (pretty heavy, but not heavy enough to be metal), or acoustic rock (they also like acoustics.) I will admit that I am simply a huge C&C making my arguement, but it's not the fact that I'm a fan that I'm doing it, it's because it is what's right. Please at least listen to their songs for once (I recommend The Suffering, Welcome Home, and Crossing the Frame from their latest CD, those cover all of their styles) so you can see my point. And maybe a little feedback from a neutral source? Thank you Zanny77 03:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't need to point out my credentials, but I will; I own two C&C albums and four Fall Out Boy albums, and have seen both of them live. I'm not poorly acquainted with their music. I read a fair amount of music journalism, and I can say with absolute certainty that these bands are often referred to as emo. It doesn't matter whether they are emo or not; the sentence says, emo has often been used to describe such bands. Which is true. If you want references, I'll go dig up half a dozen reviews that use the word. Can we be done with this? It's a silly argument. Who cares what they're called? Chubbles 03:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Guys! cohead and cambria experiment too much to be emo, they are progressive rock. their image is not emo either so there =] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.249.216.97 (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough that you want to include AFI. But can you provide some sources where they have been called this? Even just posting a link here for me would be more than sufficient, I am just curious. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.172.184.80 (talk) 10:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Here ya go: [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] Chubbles 16:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

yeah but in these articles they also calls them metal and goth

Emotive not Emotional

"Emo" is not emotional rock, because all music has some kind of emotion it is expressing. The original post-hardcore music that was referred to as "emo" (which was a name given to these bands by other hardcore punk bands such as minor threat as a joke) was called emotive hardcore which meant describing "the process by which emotions are managed and shaped, not only by society and its expectations but also by individuals themselves as they seek to express the inexpressible" so it was just another way of punk music critisizing society. Then almost 9 years ago people started using "emo" to describe the girly crying kids that were coming around and MTV then picked it up and "emo" was given a whole new definition entirely. Emo is usually judged by fashion, and all to common are people labelled with it. Bands often try to shun the label, and only a select few embrace it, as it is seen as an insult by many of the 'metal' bands. There is also much heated disscussion as to whether a band is 'emo' or not. For example: My Chemical Romance.

If you can find one source from the 1980s that uses the phrase "emotive hardcore" rather than "emotional hardcore", then a change is in order. Otherwise, this is just speculation. Chubbles 02:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Though Emo most likely did stand for Emotive Hardcore, I can find no reference to say so. The most refutable reference on Emo music is Fourfa, which says Emotional, so it could be kept as is. Manupod 22:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Everything you say here is correct except for the "most likely" part. Speaking as someone heavily involved in the emo scene of the mid-to-late 90s, the term "emotive hardcore" simply was not used. There is not even room for "could have been" - it simply was not. It became a "popular" term only in the last few years. My take is that "emotive hardcore" is being pushed by the more elitist members of the current scene to separate themselves from the pop culture confluence of the terms "emo" and "emotional". And I think that's proven by the arrogance and belligerence of those folks on the issue, despite the fact that the evidence clearly does not support their insistence. -- ChrisB 00:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

These days, the term emo is used to describe any band playing guitar-based music that is emotional either in approach, lyrical focus or affect. 2003 brought the diary-like hit Dashboard Confessional and since then, indie-rock cross-overs Bright Eyes and Death Cab For Cutie have become successful pop acts while maintaining -- if erroneously -- the label emo. In addition, more emotional pop punk bands like Brand New, Avenged Sevenfold, Taking Back Sunday and Thursday are all ascribed the label regardless of whether they claim it for themselves. Today, "emo" can describe almost anything emotional.

Having been around the scene since the late 80's I have to agree that the term wasn't in common usage on the east coast until late '92 or early '93 and I have never heard anyone (until just now) refer to the DC scene as the birthplace of emo. There were a lot of bands from everywhere that all popped up around the same time that got the "emo" label and no one back then saw it as a "DC style." In fact, all of the "emo" bands I knew of were from Syracuse, NY down to Philadelphia including NYC and NJ. Outside of that there were a handful of bands from California. And as the music started to get down tempo with bands like Texas Is The Reason and Kill Holliday '94 or '95 is the first time i remember hearing the term "screamo" which was used to identify similarly inrtrospective lyrics but with screaming vocals and normally harder music. As well no one ever called it emo because people were emotional onstage. It's punk/hardcore, people have always been emotional. It was called emo because the songs, the lyrics that is, were about emotions and relationships and looked at the usual punk issues through the lens of one's own emotions. I had never heard anyone say that it was called "emo" because the bands were made up of particulalry emotional people until 1999 or 2000, and that was only from people who were 19-21 at the time which means they would've been 12-14 years old when the term "emo" was first getting tossed around. It was also understood, by the mid to late 90's, that people in the DIY punk scene were abandoning the genre because of the "Mall kids" it was attracting. By the late '90's "emo" bands had become to the east coast what pop punk bands are to the west coast. The sounds are slightly different but the issues and the fan base are mostly the same.

Death cab for cutie is Indie Rock and the music is not emotiv ein a depression form. Death Cab and the other Indie Rock Bands are NOT EMO and this should be summed up...

EMOCORE IS EMO

EMOCORE AND Emo are the same things! it's like punk and punkrock! punk is the short form of punkrock! so emo is the short form of Emocore and you know it! so please let this stand there! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AFI-PUNK (talk • contribs) 11:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I refuse to be dragged into some long-winded back and forth on my talk page. This issue should be covered here on the article's discussion page.

Look like Omar

The statement you are making is false. The two terms have not been synonymous since the end of the "second wave". Modern emo bands are not referred to as "emocore" - they are simply called "emo". As such, "also known as" is completely inappropriate for the intoductory definition. Furthermore, it's unnecessary, as the article covers usage of the word "emocore" in a more than satisfactory manner.

Simply put: all of emocore is emo, but not all of emo is emocore. There is "emo" outside of what would be considered "emocore". The terms are not the same, and should not be described as the same. -- ChrisB 01:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Highly amusing. Judging by your username I'd think that you'd know a thing or two about punk, but apparently you don't. There's loads of punk out there that's not punkrock at all - it's a subgenre. -The preceding signed comment was added by Nazgjunk (talk • contrib) 11:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No You dumb one, emo is short for emotional , hockeyguitar99 9:16, 20 June 2007

well emo and emocore are different; emo encompasses softer things like jimmy eat world and emo-core is more hawthorne hights and used, like heavier —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.249.216.97 (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC) ^6Totally wrong. hawthorne Heights isn't emo. emocore refers to the hardcore punk bands with emotional lyrics, liek Rites of Spring and Embrace. Emo bands liek Moss Icon took the emo part of emocore and focused on that. And then there was post-emo or inde emo like Sunny Day Real Estate and Mineral who made a more melodic version of emo. Emo-pop added pop influences to indie emo; examples: The Promsie Ring, Jimmy Eat World

stereotype?

isnt emo a stereotype??? ▓░ Dark Devil ░▓ ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) 10:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

yes look at Emo (slang)

It is, but this is talking about the genre of music, as stated above, look at Emo (slang) Iluvmesodou 07:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

straight edge

why is this in the see also bit?

I believe it to be there because straight edge is often associated with the emo genere. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.Akamaru Toshibo 18:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

That was true, particularly during the first and second waves. There was a distinct crossover between the straight edge community and the emo scene. The original DC emo scene was directly linked with the straight edge scene in the area. Perhaps coincidentally, Ian Mackaye (Embrace, Fugazi) coined the term "straight edge" when he was in Minor Threat (though he never considered himself part of the straight edge community). I doubt the link is as strong now, given "emo"'s shift to the mainstream. -- ChrisB 02:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If emo was related to straight edge, then it should also be connected to various forms of punk rock. It seems rather arbitrary to make this connection simply because the two sounds were associated in DC. There are shows featuring a wide variety of musical types, but that does not mean we should associate jazz and metal. Unless there is some verifiable proof that these two have some connection, straight edge should be removed from the "See Also" section. I feel this is especially important in light of the current status of emo which, as far as I have been able to discover, has virtually no links to the straight edge movement.

We're not talking about "straight edge" as a sound. We're talking about straight edge as a movement. Even the barest of association between the two (and, in reality, it was way more than "minor") justifies the see-also. -- ChrisB 00:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, well in that case is there proof that the two ideologies are linked? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.115.40.66 (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

The only link I possibly see between Edge and Emo is that they both came from the D.C. Hardcore scene and that they looked up to Ian MacKaye. No way does that constitute a see also. I'm taking it out. It's way to much of a logical leap unless you back it up with some sort of solid connection.Stealthsloth22 (talk) 01:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)stealthsloth

There was significant crossover between emo and straight edge during the 80s and 90s. This article covers the entire history of emo, not just the modern-day.

In particular, Rites of Spring was spawned from the straight edge scene of the 1980s. Mackaye was a member of Minor Threat, whose song "Straight Edge" spawned the term, before becoming a member of Embrace, one of the first Emo bands.

Furthermore, a significant number of people who participated in the emo scenes of the 80s and 90s also participated in the straight edge scene. That's why the whole "xNamex" stuff became linked with Emo.

The 80s stuff alone is justification for including it here. Both emo and straight edge were spawned in DC by the same people.

By the way, I'm repeating myself. If the discussion has happened without clear resolution, you should continue the discussion before unilaterally acting on your own opinion. -- ChrisB (talk) 02:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The way it looks to me, Ian played in Embrace and produced for Rites of Spring. Both Emo and straight edge were spawned from the DC hardcore and that's it. The fact that MacKaye produced Rites is totally irrelevant. Are you going to go link Fall Out Boy to Chingy because they both work with Def Jam Records? As for the fact that MacKaye played in Embrace, it lasted around a year, Ian played in a lot of different bands and to call him a founder of emo because he played for a short time in Embrace is a stretch, Ian himself shunned the term emocore, and Guy Picciotto called it "the most retarded term" he had ever heard.

If A member of Slayer were to start a band with a member of Panic at the Disco you wouldn't associate metal with emo so I don't see how Ian going out of Minor Threat and into Embrace makes Edge associated with Emo. It's a member of edge associating with Emo... Ian is the first person to put the name to edge but he's still only one member and I think it's ridiculous to mix the groups because of one member.

A significant number of priests participate in straight edge behavior but they aren't linked to edge. Besides I don't think that there was as much of a mix of the two as you think. Other than a few edger who checked out Ians newer work or the emo people who looked into his past work I think there is about as much edge in emo as in any scene. The whole name thing was stolen from edge and I don't know any edgers who still use that.

If they were spawned by the same people I think that the best place to combine emo and edge would be on those people pages, yeah? It just seems like if a guy writes a song and paints a painting you wouldn't link the song to painting, you'd link them both to the artist.

I think if there's no resolution yet it's best not to make the leap of logic and leave the two articles unassociated until it is resolved rather than associating the two and possibly having it be wrong.64.252.89.58 ([[User talk:64.252.89.58 (talk) 03:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)stealthsloth22|talk]]) 03:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

"Leap of logic"? Where are you getting this stuff? Personal experience? If so, what is your personal experience with 80s and 90s emo at the time? Were you a participant, or are you just pulling this stuff off of the Internet?

Straight edgers booked emo shows in the 90s. Remember - emo was an underground movement for its first fifteen years. The scenes were inextricably linked - particularly during the late 80s and early 90s. Emo bands and straight edge / youth crew / etc bands regularly shared bills and a lot of common values. The Emo kids didn't "steal" the naming thing from straight edgers - the straight edgers in the emo scene used it themselves, and other non-edgers picked it up.

You can't use the modern definition of "emo" in the argument because that's not what we're talking about. Panic and Fall Out Boy are completely irrelevant - that's not the kind of emo being referenced.

What exactly are you defending? Do you think that the straight edgers that gladly participated in the 80s and 90s emo scenes would take offense to the two being linked? -- ChrisB (talk) 04:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I was a participant in the 90's New England straight edge scene. I know more than enough about the history of edge to debate it.

The fact that both edge and emo played the same shows isn't a strong link. A few moths ago I saw a Hatebreed concert where an underground rap group played. Likewise, saying that the two were "inextricably linked" or that bands from both sides shared "common values" isn't providing any evidence for your case. There's no substance to either of those statement they're both just vague generalizations.

It looks like what you said with regards to the X's is that emo edgers used them and then other non-edge emo listeners picked it up. This is basically stealing it... Edge used it to designate a straight edger, if emo edgers used it it was still being used properly, totally fine. But then non-edge emo listeners started using it incorrectly to describe themselves and so it changed meaning. What exactly about that is different from stealing it?

Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco are both referenced in the "Emo" article and so are applicable in a debate about the article.

As for why I'm arguing. As an edger, I have no problem with being associated with Rites or Embrace or other First, or even a good number of second wave emo bands. Lots of those were good. However, the thought of being associated with third wave emo makes every edger I know want to throw up. On this note I think that two possible courses of action are...

A. Link both Emo and Straight Edge to Ian MacKaye's article and remove the edge link on this article.

B. Separate the Emo article into three articles, one for each wave (plausible I think because the waves are extremely different musically as well) and link edge to the First Wave Article.

Also, like I said earlier, will you agree to take down the edge link until the issue is resolved? If someone thinks Bush is a Power Ranger you wouldn't say he was a Power Ranger until the issue was settled. You would not mention it until it was either settled that he was or wasn't. Same principle I think.Stealthsloth22 (talk) 20:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)