Talk:Ellie Black/GA1

GA Review

Passed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 03:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this article over the next day or two. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted the initial review. My main concern is criterion 3: this article is dominated by basic statistics and minor details about all of the different events Black has competed in, but it doesn't cover much in the way of context for these events and accomplishments. As I say below, there are parts of the article that give a blow by blow style timeline of her career rather than an encyclopedic summary. At the very least, the article needs some trimming and reworking. I'll put it on hold so that the issues listed below can be addressed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written

My main takeaway from this article is that large parts of it feel like prosified statistics. A lot of the prose comes down to "she won this medal at this event, and she then competed in this event where she won this medal". This isn't really something that's addressed at GA and I'm not going to count it against the article, but it's prominent enough that I think it's worth noting.
Black is the most decorated female Canadian gymnast ever. – The tone of this feels a bit unencyclopedic. Maybe this can be changed to "Black is the most decorated Canadian to ever compete in women's gymnastics" or something like that.

Done -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit strange having info about something that happened in 2016 in the "early life" section. Information about her siblings might be better suited for a "personal life" section.

Done -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see a few mentions of Elite Canada, but I'm still not entirely sure what it is.

I added some context to the first time it's mentioned -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It says that she competed at Elite Canada again in 2012. Was it at senior level this time? I'm assuming so because it's in the "senior career" section, but the prose doesn't specify.

Yes, added to the article -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

and started appearing to be a contender – clunky wording

Changed -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The 2012 quote is a bit long. Unless the exact wording is important, I suggest paraphrasing some or all of it.

I removed it because it's not really important at all -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

for the first time in a non-boycotted Olympics – This might be a bit confusing without context.

Changed -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In January, Black competed at the Elite Canada competition, winning the balance beam title, which was the only event she competed in – Could this be shortened to say that she competed "in the balance beam title at the Elite Canada competition"?

Changed -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The team failed to qualify for the team final, finishing in ninth place just 0.168 points behind the Dutch team. – Would they have made the final if they had gotten 8th place? This is implied here but not stated.

Yes, context added -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Black's first competition after the Olympic Games – Though it can be inferred from context, it might be better to specify the 2016 Olympic Games since she competed in more than one.

Done -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Black made history in the all-around final – "made history" feels a bit promotional

Changed. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Black only competed on the uneven bars at Elite Canada and finished seventh. – This sentence reads awkwardly and lacks context. It should specify which Elite Canada, because she obviously competed in others. And maybe drop the "only", because it's unclear what's being excluded.

Changed. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In 2018, Black was named one of the 15 greatest athletes in Nova Scotian history – Named by whom?

Context added. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would someone with even just a basic understanding of gymnastics understand what Difficulty G means? If there's any doubt, the difficulty scale should be defined.

I added a link to Code of Points (gymnastics)#Table of elements which explains the difficulty values. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiable with no original research

Reliability:

The Gymternet appears to be a Wordpress blog. Even if it's run by someone with some level of qualification, there's still no editorial oversight.

All The Gymternet references have been removed. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is wogymnast.com a reliable source?

No, this is another blog. I changed the source. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is panow.com a reliable source?

This is the website for a local newspaper for Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, so I would say yes. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The use of a tweet is acceptable in this case but not ideal.

Spotchecks:

[1] Canadian Olympic Committee – Checked all four uses. I see that this is used to source her birthday, but putting it at the end of the sentence makes it seem like it also sources her parents' names, which it does not. Otherwise good.

source moved to after birthdate -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[27] Doolittle (2012) – Good.
[41] International Gymnastics Federation (2014) – Good.
[57] CTV News (2015) – Good.
[79] Patterson (2017) – Does this support that Black was the first Canadian to win an all-around medal? I can only find this in the other citation.

No, I removed it. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[121] Awad (2021) – Good.

Other things I noticed but aren't required for GA:

I'm seeing a lot of primary/database sources. These are good for providing basic stats and supplementary info, but they shouldn't be the foundation of the article. Not urgent, but something to keep in mind.
The "competitive history" section is entirely unsourced. Under the current GA criteria, this is discouraged but permissible. However, if this RfC passes, tables like this will presumably be expected to have citations for GA.

I added sources for this. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Broad in its coverage

The article seems to be missing coverage about

I'd like to see more about these events from Black's perspective. For example, I'm betting that getting picked for the 2012 Olympics and then dropping out due to an injury were two of the most significant experiences of her life, but the article gives me no indication of this or of how these affected her. It basically just says "it happened" then moves on to the next thing. This happens throughout the article, where it's really unclear what in her life was a major milestone and what was just another day, because the article gives every event the same weight.

I struggle to see how to do this without compromising neutrality, any suggestions? -Riley1012 (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything published about who Black is outside of gymnastics? Is she involved in any other notable activities?

Added -Riley1012 (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Does Black have any notable sponsors?

Yes, added -Riley1012 (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be significant focus on relatively minor details.

There are several places where it mentions other gymnasts, such as those on her Olympic team and those who bested her in events. Is it relevant who these specific gymnasts were?
I would say it is relevant for Olympic teams and when Canadian teams won medals. Otherwise, no. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how important different events are, so I'm going to trust your judgement on which are relevant enough to mention. But keep in mind that this article doesn't need to be a reiteration of every event she's ever competed in. So if there were any events of no real consequence for her career, then they can be removed from the prose.

I have taken some events out -Riley1012 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similar to the above, it might be worth reevaluating how much weight is given to the specific scores or places she got in each individual event. The article should summarize her career, not give a blow by blow account of it.

I agree the scores are not really relevant outside of major events, I've removed most of them (I kept them for major events/scores showing how close she was to medal). I also took out non-medal winning placements besides at World Championships and Olympics -Riley1012 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Black enjoys cooking and has shared her recipes online. – Is this relevant? If it is, then more info can probably be found about it in other sources. If there aren't other sources about this, then it might not be relevant.

No other sources, I took it out. -Riley1012 (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

No neutrality issues.

Stable

No recent content disputes.

Illustrated

One image, captioned, valid Creative Commons tag. I'd bet more images could be taken from the same video source, but it's region blocked and I cannot access it.

I am also blocked from access -Riley1012 (talk) 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Thebiguglyalien:, I believe I've gotten to all your concerns now. Let me know what you think of the changes. -Riley1012 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is looking really good. I realize I asked for a lot with broader page-wide comments. Just a few things stand out now:

Is there any reason why there's no "2011" subheading? I know it's only one sentence, but it would still be good for consistency.

I put no heading since there's just one sentence, but I will add one -Riley1012 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding weight, I'm mostly just asking if there are any sources that give emphasis to certain parts of her life or go into more elaboration about specific events, because the impression I get from the article here is that they all just give a basic "this happened on this day" type read out.

Got it, I made a few changes -Riley1012 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source says For the past two years, another national level gymnast has called Alta home. Denelle Pedrick of Wilcox, Sask., has been training under Kikuchi and with Black while she pursues a master’s degree in kinesiology at Dalhousie. – This is an uncertain antecedent (grammatically, it could be talking about Pedrick), so it might be better to find another source saying this. Normally this would be a minor issue, but it's best to be extra careful with a WP:BLP.

It turns out you're right, that was about Pedrick. Black definitely studied at Dalhousie, but I can't find a source about her graduating. -Riley1012 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that she watches movies and listens to music seems trivial. Personally, I don't know anyone that doesn't do those things. On the other hand, this is the second source to bring up cooking, and it might be worth combining this with the previous source that was removed if it seems relevant.

Ok, I added the cooking part back in and took out music/movies. -Riley1012 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien: -Riley1012 (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good! Marking it as a good article now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.