Talk:Ellen Albertini Dow

Year of birth?

The source listed has her born in 1918 but IMDB say 1913 http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0016687/. Anyone know additional sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coinmanj (talk • contribs) 23:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

1913 appears to be correct - she's listed in the 1920 and 1930 Mt. Carmel, Pa. census, age 6 and 16 respectively. Colonel Mayfair (talk) 20:02, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Do we need further proof then a 90th birthday video featuring the lady herself from 2008?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JXK9PvvuKk --Jkaharper (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

It was confirmed that in 2012 she was 93 and still working. If imdb was right she would be 99 there. Her being 93 puts her birth year as either 1919, depending on whether November 16th is her actual birthday. So she would now be 95 going on 96. <a href="http://blog.comedycentral.co.uk/2012/01/16/where-are-they-now-the-old-lady-from-the-wedding-singer-aka-ellen-albertini-dow/">Where are they now (Comedy Central)</a> Darkpoetx (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)Darkpoetx

Actually, yes - the video barely meets the laugh test as a proof standard. Although it was uploaded in 2008, there's no indication when it was actually recorded. The genealogical proof standard is twofold - whether the person reporting the information has first-hand knowledge, and the likelihood of an error, inadvertant or deliberate, in either the reporting or the recording of the data. It's extremely unlikely that someone born in 1918 would be reported (presumably by one of their parents) with the same wrong age in two successive censuses ten years apart. Then there's the DOB reported in IMDB which, although it lists no source, most likely came from the actor herself. Colonel Mayfair (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, logic doesn't overrule certain policies here in Wikipedia. It sucks, but what can you do? If editors here want people to believe that she was born in 1918 then that's on their conscience. OscarL 01:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

"If editors here want people to believe that she was born in 1918 then that's on their conscience." -- I have debunked many articles' accepted years of birth, usually actors/actresses, which were unquestioned for many years. I'll not list them here lest that provoke anyone to mess around but trust me I have no problem fixing conventional wisdom. Quis separabit? 11:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I appreciate the work you've done on articles like Doris Day and so on. The thing is, Canadian Paul feels that we need better references to show that she really was born in 1913 and not 1918. So yeah...OscarL 01:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but the census records and the fact that she graduated college Cornell University in 1935 does it for me. Quis separabit? 17:49, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Intelius indicates she is 95 years old as of today, June 22, 2014, indicating 1918 year of birth. Whoever changed the year to 1913 just because of IMDb is likely mistaken unless there is some other evidence that she was born in 1913, which I don't see. I'll change it back as IMDb is not a reliable source. Quis separabit? 23:07, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Why would Intelius be more reliable than a 1920 census match? OscarL 10:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

1913 does appear to be correct. I was unaware of the census data and the fact that she graduated from Cornell University in 1935. Checked it out and restored year of birth to 1913. Only reason I changed it was because IMDb alone is not only insufficient but usually regarded as unreliable for personal data/biodata.  Done Quis separabit? 11:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I have removed 1913 because it is not backed up by a reliable source and thus constitutes original research. Census data cannot be used per WP:BLPPRIMARY, which states clearly "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses", which is exactly what is being done here. As for the Cornell Yearbook, yes, that does seem to suggest that she was born prior to 1918, but unless I'm missing something, nowhere does it claim a particular birth date or year. Is it likely that she was born prior to 1918 based on this evidence? Yes. Is it verifiable based on the citation? No; therefore it constitutes original research. If you believe that a case can be made to use 1913, then I suggest that you bring it to the BLP noticeboard. If consensus there is that it is alright, then I will happily abide by that. Until then, or until a reliable source is provide, violations of WP:BLP will be reverted on sight and repeat offenders will be blocked. Canadian Paul 22:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I have corrected Canadian Paul's mistake edit by adding an additional reflink confirming Dow's year of birth as 1913, which should be acceptable. Quis separabit? 23:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

No you haven't. You've added a secondary source that contests other sources and the primary sources remain unusable per WP:BLPPRIMARY. Having said that, I've tried to come up with a compromise of the nature reached at Gabre Gabric. Hopefully this will be acceptable to all; if not, there's always WP:BLPN. Canadian Paul 23:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

How does a reflink from Business Insider contest other sources which you state are unusable anyway under WP:BLPPRIMARY? I don't get the circular reasoning. Painstaking census and university material is not valid but a 2014 reflink from a respectable, unbiased source is also unacceptable somehow. Quis separabit? 23:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to say that Business Insider is a good source, but there are other equally good sources that say 1918 as well, so essentially it makes more sense to list both unless there's a definitive, non-primary source-based reason to choose one over the other. Gabre Gabric actually has a definitive, non-primary source-based reason to choose one over the other, but they still choose to list both potential dates, so I'm just trying to be extra careful here in consideration of all the problems we've had with actress birthdates. Canadian Paul 23:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's seeming more like the best situation here would to hope that the New York Times or another paper of the same stature confirms the year whenever she dies in an obituary. Connormah (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Is there any opposition to listing both years of birth in the article with an explanation of the differing sources in the Early life section? Connormah (talk) 03:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I have no objection @Connormah:. Canadian Paul 01:01, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

References

She also founded the Albertini Mime Players and was its producer for 19 years.

"She also founded the Albertini Mime Players and was its producer for 19 years." this can be sourced from Los Angeles Pierce College records if someone wants to dig. 1970s and 80s 76.91.14.191 (talk) 08:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Carnegie Recital Hall

The name "Carnegie Recital Hall" in this article links to the page for Carnegie Hall in NYC. There's in fact a venue named Carnegie Recital Hall, in Pittsburgh, Pa., part of the Carnegie Library/Carnegie Museum complex. This seems more likely to me. There's no source for the "Carnegie Recital Hall" reference, can anyone point to one? Colonel Mayfair (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Death

Sadly, Ellen Albertini Dow passed away on May 4, 2015:

http://deadline.com/2015/05/ellen-albertini-dow-dead-wedding-singer-rapping-granny-1201420781/

Anyone out there have any more information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.69.14.83 (talk) 06:40, 5 May 2015 (UTC)