Talk:Elephant and Castle

The origin of the name is not correct. Arthur married Catharine of Aragon, who on his death married Henry(VIII). The Infanta de Castile was probably Elaenor of Castile, daugther of Ferdinand III, King of Castille. She married King Edward I of England.

"The name of the area is derived from the first wife of King Edward I, Eleanor of Castile. Queen Eleanor had been the Infanta of Castile. When she arrived in England this sounded, to the ears of Londoners like Elephant and Castle." Is this etymology attested to anywhere? Would 13th century Surreymen have known what an elephant was? Jperrylsu 16:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Belated reply; the above is a widely repeated urban myth and is completely untrue. The title "Infanta" was not in use in this period. – iride scent 18:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is urban myth - the name is derived from the Elephant and Castle coaching house which stood at the main junction between the Causeway, Butts, London Road and St George's Road. 89.168.113.135 (talk) 07:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC) Tony S[reply]

I have been in touch with the Southwark Local History Library and found out a lot of stuff about the toponymy of Elephant and Castle. Unfortunately I can find little to suppport it citation wise so I'm not going to risk sticking it all up. Here it is though:

Elephant and Castle has myriad folk toponymies, the most popular ascribing its naming to a mis-hearing of ‘Infanta de Castile’, an infant princess (probably Elaenor of Castile, daugther of Ferdinand III, King of Castille) who supposedly visited the area. However, the title "Infanta" was not in use in this period. Other popular folk toponymies involve elephants visiting from India and local residents having elephant based visions in the area. The actual provenance of the name is far less romantic. Elephant and castle was the name of a public house that formed the central hub of the area. Originally a farriers called The White Horse, the building (situated roughly where the Faraday monument stands today) became a public house named Elephant and castle in around 1765. Almost certainly, the change from farrier's to pub relates to the opening of New Kent Road under an Act of 1751. The evidence suggests that the change of function and name may have taken place as early as 1755. The first known pub landlord was called George Frost. The first known pub landlord was called George Frost. It may well be that he chose the new name at random, without the slightest thought of the tradition he was bringing into being. It is possible that he had previously lived near another pub of the name, or knew one elsewhere that he admired. But it could equally well be that he might have plumped for the Red Lion or the Six Bells, again without any 'reason'. They were all simply normal pub names. The sign is a fairly common one for pubs. There remains the remnant of another example at nearby Vauxhall (on the roof of the Starbucks, presumably a former Elephant and Castle pub) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=vauxhall&ie=UTF8&ll=51.487396,-0.122759&spn=0,359.986267&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.486441,-0.123805&panoid=GbU2lwqxC87VqqcrzmOzqg&cbp=12,165.95,,3,-5.23 .

From at least as early as the11th century, almost any depiction of an elephant - in carvings of wood or stone, and paintings as in bestiaries - always involved a 'castle'. In the simplest sense, this was just an elephantine version of a horse's saddle. A horse would normally have just one rider on a saddle, but an elephant could take several. In the mediaeval mind, in view of the use of elephants in warfare, the elephantine saddle inevitably became a 'castle'; in art, this element became more pronounced than it was in reality. The warriors did need protection, of course. And that reflection of the military use of elephants went back to Hannibal and perhaps beyond. The ancient Roman world was certainly well aware of the elephant in warfare, which was in turn translated into the conventional idea of the elephant and castle in the Middle Ages. From that time onwards, elephants were almost always depicted in that guise. Wk 85 (talk) 09:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although Eleanor of Castile may not have been Infanta, the word was in use later. Constanza, Infanta de Castilla, became the second wife of John of Gaunt in 1371. See http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/John_of_Gaunt,_1st_Duke_of_Lancaster#.27King_of_Castile.27 W4rd3n (talk) 07:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen old chess pieces in the form of an 'elephant and castle' (the pieces being used as the Rook or Castle, of course). I wonder if this was influential in spreading the motif?(Added: I just found this link, which includes a lot of good illustrations. http://sites.google.com/site/caroluschess/heraldy/elephant-and-castle )109.149.26.154 (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This long-standing discussion over the name results in a blatant contradiction in the published Read version today in 2017. The "Name" section clearly claims that "The name "Elephant and Castle" is derived from a coaching inn" (1765). It also claims "Shakespeare mentions the Elephant Lodgings in "Twelfth Night" " (1601). Both of these sound perfectly feasible as pub names, without any speculation about their curious derivation. Then the entry's second section "La Infanta de Castilla" first destroys the "folk etymology stating that "Elephant and Castle" is a corruption of "La Infanta de Castilla", and yet by the end of this paragraph concedes that "Catherine of Aragon, the first wife of Henry VIII, was indeed an Infanta de Castille" who lived into the 1500s and Shakespeare's era. So does it not seem very likely indeed that this Infanta might well have given her name to a hostelry in Shakespeare's London and subsequently even to a coaching inn?! Boswell1740 (talk) 14:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boswell1740 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence of the Castile story needs correcting, but without the evidence provided by the previous editor, I am unable to correct the grammar to make any sense - data is missing and needs including in the sentence restructure.AsparagusTips (talk) 15:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ugly buildings?

I have never heard Hannibal House described as ugly. it's just a rectangular slab - soulless, boring but not hideous. Alexander Fleming House is different. Ian Fleming hated it so much that he used the name of its architect, Goldfinger, as the name of one of his villains. [1].--Londoneye 23:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Photos

We had much better photos than this. Where have they all gone? Secretlondon 06:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elephant and Castle Tube/Underground Travelling Game - 'Connections'

I was saddened to find NO reference to the old BBC Radio 'Elephant and Castle' Tube Game.

I was hoping to be able to refresh myself as to the 'rules' of the word game, but...

The idea of the game is to say which stops you should visit and where you should transfer to be able to come 'Full-circle' and arrive back at your departure place, or pre-determined location in the most efficient manner possible. Reverse travel from a near stop is obviously verbotten, as this would be too simple and defeats the purpose of the game - memory and reasoning skills development.

Here goes an attempt from my limited recall of the way it's played.

1) Play begins from the Elephant and Castle tube station. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Elephant_and_Castle_tube_station

  - Players may also agree on an alternate starting station.
  - Play may also exit from the Tube lines and continue via linked 'Train' rail stations (possibly internationally)
    - this often leads to the player being eliminated early unless all others agree to depart Internationally.
    - http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Elephant_and_Castle_railway_station

2) Players agree as to whether they are returning to their original departure station, or arriving at a specific destination.

3) First player picks a station on the Elephant and Castle line to begin their 'connections'.

4) The next player picks the next appropriate station stop, and so on...

5) If a player makes an error in station, line, or transfer they are eliminated.

6) Play continues until;

  - One player manages to arrive at the pre-determined destination, or back at the departure station.

  - One player is the only one left after all others are eliminated for errors.

n.b. Playboard is not static as ALL current tube problems (points, construction, et. al.) must be duly taken into consideration.

Way better travel game than 'Eye Spy', spot the license plate, or 'Punch-Buggy'.

I made a phone call from overseas to correct the players once as they had not been updated as to the closure of a station due to a suspicious package being found minutes before they began to play. I was awarded honorary 'winner' status, even though I had not officially been an accepted player in their round. No wonder some of my friends tell me that I think too much, eh? I was listening to them via shortwave radio relay at the time (c1984). My favourite Trump-card station = Ladbroke Grove due to it's proximity to two other line stations by foot, within the bounds of distance limiting foot travel (as well as the fact that it is such an interesting sociological locale due to the meeting of several differently 'classed' neighbourhoods - and you get to walk through the Portabello Road Antiques Market in the process). http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Portabello_Road

Originally Entered by: That Hairy Canadian a.k.a. James T. Randall on May 6, 2012.

Coins

Apparently an elephant and castle mark appears just below the monarch's head on the obverse of many guinea coins (see image here). Is this significant in any way? Was there a mint in E&C...? BigSteve (talk) 16:39, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is true; and it is significant, particularly in connection with the various threads concerning the origins of the name. I doubt there was a mint at E&C; Southwark in those days was a rough neighbourhood, a place where thieves, prostitutes and actors (gasp!) plied their trades.

The elephant-and-castle imagery depicts an elephant with a stylised Howdah on its back. That imagery is part of the 'branding' of the Royal African Company, a mercantile company founded in 1660 to exploit trade along the west coast of Africa ('The Gold Coast'), especially in gold and slaves, but also in ivory. Guinea coins dating from the reign of James II of England were duly embossed with an elephant, sometimes with a castle on its back. The trade in ivory might be connected with the establishment of a cutlers at Newington (mentioned in the article), whose knife-blades were engraved "E&C". The Stuart royal family (and later William and Mary and then George I) were all quite heavily invested in the RAC, whose financial fortunes could be described as at best 'chequered'.

The RAC was apparently granted licences to acquire land in West Africa "upon payment of two elephant's teeth" [2].

I have failed to find any stronger connection between the RAC and this part of Southwark, other than the existence of a cutler's, probably named after the coaching inn; and the fact that the RAC traded inter alia in ivory. But of course E&C is quite close to the London docklands, and the RAC was a London company, not originally associated with the other two major English/British slaving centres at Liverpool and Bristol. It seems likely that principals of the company would have passed through. Perhaps they held meetings at the inn? MrDemeanour (talk) 12:11, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

name/history according to Michael Caine

In an interview with Craig Ferguson, Michael Caine explains the "Elephant" district since he named his book "The Elephant to Hollywood". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPRsXOSGXAI Caine says it's actually a mis-pronouncing of "Infanta di Castille" and it stuck (either a mistress, or some say a princess). Another source is here, with a comment confirming "She was referred to as L'enfant de castille (Child of the Castle) and we Brits being masters of foreign languages bastardised it to Elephant & Castle..." http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/1/938 142.229.92.13 (talk) 21:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC) 142.229.92.13 (talk) 21:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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"South London"?

The dot on the map looks like it is dead-center. I am tempted to edit this, but there is probably some obscure reason not to, right? — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E465:CA4F:4607:5398 (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2017 (UTC) — ~~I went ahead and did the edit, since "Elephant and Castle" is in this Central London map. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E465:CA4F:4607:5398 (talk) 07:33, 29 July 2017 (UTC)~~ Undid self since E&C is also listed in London Borough of Southwark, which seems to "officially" be in 'South London'. —OP [dynamic]:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E14F:DD6F:CFA5:F319 (talk) 16:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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