Talk:Element (criminal law)

A fact from Element (criminal law) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 13 January 2008, and was viewed approximately 863 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that although American law requires proof of a defendant's "guilty mind" as an element of the crime, it is not concerned with motive?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/January.

Wikipedia

Countries

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry articles

WikiProject Countries to-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy.
Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries
Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region.
Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess.

Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Law High‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Psychology Mid‑importance

	Psychology portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Psychology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PsychologyWikipedia:WikiProject PsychologyTemplate:WikiProject Psychologypsychology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sociology Mid‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Page title

Is Element (criminal) the best location of the page? The bolded terms on the page are actually element of a crime and elements of a crime - it may be better to have the page at Elements of a crime, with the others redirecting to there. There's the additional problem that the phrase Criminal element is usually used to refer to a group or organization of criminals and other bad influences, rather than the specific legal topics discussed on this page. -- 19:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. I chose the title because "Elements of a crime" seemed long, but now that you mention it, I like it better. It is more descriptive of the article and more recognizable I think. Mattisse 20:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional possibility?

It occurs to me that there is an additional element necessary for a crime: the existence of law (and thus, without government there'd be no crime, yadda yadda libertopian anarchy etc ad nauseam). This may seem a tautology - obviously, you can't break a law without a law to break - but it's been quite relevant in cases like those of Kenneth Pinyan: after Pinyan's death by misadventure, his companions were found to be immune from prosecution, because there had been no law against the behaviors in which they had been engaging. Or consider Joe Kennedy, who made his fortune via stock-market manipulation in ways which are now illegal, but which were not illegal at the time. Inversely, George Klippert was freed from prison after the Canadian government decriminalized homosexuality: although he had committed the illegal actions, they were no longer illegal.

Is this something that's worth adding to the article? Does it count as Original Research, or Synthesis, or...? DS (talk) 15:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would be Original Research, IMO, as in common law each crime has specific elements listed by law as having to be proved in order to convict, usually some combination of the ones listed in the article. It is a given that without government, common law legal systems would not exist. There are other issues that are not considered "elements". For example, the alleged crime must be "possible" to commit. A person cannot be convict of a crime that is "impossible" to commit. I don't think this is strictly an 'element", athough it could be if the defendant's defense was "impossility." Then the jury instructions would include what constitutes "impossibility". This is my take on the issue you bring up. Regards, Mattisse 15:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Finally a law article that's understandable to the amateur and cuts to the chase, lacking wikipedia users' usual technical jargon. Approved, and you might as well just delete the entire actus reus and mens rea articles and put these descriptions in their place. -Maxstate

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was support for move. I think Anthony Appleyard's suggested modification is a good one, sewing up any ambiguity, and there has been no comments addressed to it over seven days.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Element (criminal) → Element (law) — Per discussion here. "Xxxx (criminal)" is confusing because there are pages like Larry Davis (criminal). — Jafeluv (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Support per reasoning provided at Talk:Consent (criminal)#Survey. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the move to Element (law), but I think Elements of crime would be reasonable, since that's the specific phrase used in the current article's intro. I agree that the current title is bad, but I don't think Element (law) is any improvement. --Quuxplusone (talk) 03:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Or move to Element (criminal law)? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.