Talk:Eight Garudhammas

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Bhikkhuni was copied or moved into The Eight Garudhammas with this edit on 2017-01-22. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Modern statements

Until now I couldn't find any buddhist papers from westerners or easterners referring to that old topic. Please help to extend the page.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.203.152 (talk) 18:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some links to be

[1]
[2]

Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.206 (talk) 07:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Innovative Buddhist Women, Table of Contents (part of), book edited by Karma Lekshe Tsomo,

Austerlitz -- 88.75.218.0 (talk) 10:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Austerlitz -- 88.75.218.0 (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where are they to be found?

Susan Murcott writes: [4] S. 213 ff (s.S. 215): "In addition to the Eight Special Rules, there was the Bhikkhunivibangha, or collection of rules (lit. "nuns' division" or "nuns' classification") that was patterned after the Bhikkhuvibangha, the monks' collection of rules. It is a separate book of rules to be observed solely by the nuns. Because the extant Bhikkhunivibangha contains only 84 rules, we may regard this present form as an abridged version of a formerly more complete collection for nuns. In addition to the 84 rules the nuns were responsible for observing 227 rules equivalent to those found in the monks' collection of rules. The monks observed a total of 227 rules, the nuns a total of 311."

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 09:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bhikkhuni Kusuma writes: "In the Pali canon, the Buddha laid down 311 rules of discipline for Bhikkhunis. Those are the PAtimokkha rules which help ordained practitioners achieve mental tranquility, wisdom and the goal of attaining nibbana (liberation) in this very life. It is ironic that, although the Patimokkha rules are carefully preserved in the Theravadin tradition there are no bhikkhunis in the Theravadin countries (Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and Sri Lanka) to practice them. The bhikkhuni order was lost nearly 1,000 years ago in these countries and no attempt has been made to study these rules for centuries." (page 5)

Page 6: "Both the Cullavagga and Samantapasadika texts refer to the ordination procedure of the first bhikkhuni, Mahapajapati Gotami, who was the aunt and stepmother of Buddha Sakkamuni (Sanskrit: Sakyamuni). The acceptance of eight special rules (garudhammas) constituted her ordination as a nun. In the Pali, the eight garudhammas appear in the tenth khandhaka of the Cullavagga. " khandhaka, Cullavagga

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

literature

documents

[8]
[9]

I do not understand that system. Does chapter 23 correspond somehow to the above mentioned "tenth khandhaka"?

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 11:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alexander Berzin in his summary report in section Lineages and Differences in Ordination Procedures states that "The bhikshuni ordination ceremony has two parts:". Do the eight garudhammas belong to part one or to part two?

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 11:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Prof. Dr. Janet Gyatso Prof. Dr. Janet Gyatso, Harvard University Divinity School, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA in the words of Dr. Alexander Berzin agreement to the eight gurudharmas is not part of the ordination ritual. "Some Vinaya rules may need to be bent in order to re-establish the Mulasarvastivada bhikshuni ordination, and certain discriminatory customs that are not part of the ordination ritual, such as agreement to the eight gurudharmas, need to be discontinued. It is vitally important that Buddhism in the modern world be based on total gender equality."

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 11:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Berzin report The Original Establishment of the Bhikshuni Order: "According to some traditions, accepting the eight garudhammas constituted this first ordination. According to other traditions, Buddha entrusted the initial ordination of Mahaprajapati and her five hundred women followers to ten bhikshus, under the leadership of Ananda. In either case, the earliest standard method for ordaining bhikshunis was by a group of ten bhikshus. This manner of ordination is commonly known as “single bhikshu sangha ordination” (pha’i dge-’dun rkyang-pa’i bsnyen-par rdzogs-pa). The ordination procedure involves asking the candidates a list of questions concerning impediments (bar-chad-kyi chos, Skt. antarayikadharma, Pali: antarayikadhamma) she may have that might hinder her from keeping the full set of vows. In addition to the questions asked in common with candidates for bhikshu ordination, these include further questions concerning her anatomy as a female."

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 11:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bodhisattva vows Are they part of the ordination process for monastics?

Austerlitz -- 88.75.204.94 (talk) 12:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Pali Vinaya (Book of the Discipline, Pali Text Society, volume V, chapter X), the 8 garudhammas constituted ordination for Gotami only (though they're still binding on other nuns). Other procedures were laid down for subsequent ordinations. The standard procedure is for a nun to be ordained by an order of nuns & then by an order of monks.

In China, Korea & Vietnam, bodhisattva vows are traditionally taken after ordination. In Japan, they replaced it (most Japanese clergy are married nowadays).

In recent years the controversy over restoring the Theravada order of nuns has hotted up, with the head of one branch of the sangha purporting to ordain them while the governing council of another branch declares all such ordinations invalid (sound familar?). Peter jackson (talk) 10:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ordination report

Taking Ordination "Fortunately I had studied the ceremony in a book (Perfect Conduct, which has a commentary by HH Dudjom Rinpoche), so I had a little idea of what was happening."

the full title of the book is Perfect Conduct: Ascertaining the Three Vows. The author of the "root text," Ngari Panchen (1487 - 1542), was a famous scholar.

Austerlitz -- 92.78.130.136 (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How to insert it

Women, see section The Changing Status of Women (and also, the Plight of Western Monastics) @khandro.net

"American Tibetan Buddhist monk Thubten Pende gave his views: "When I translated the texts concerning the ordination ceremony I got such a shock. It said that even the most senior nun had to sit behind the most novice monk because, although her ordination was superior, the basis of that ordination, her body, was inferior. I thought, "There it is." I'd heard about this belief but I'd never found evidence of it. I had to recite this text at the ceremony. I was embarrassed to say it and ashamed of the institution I was representing. I wondered, "Why doesn't she get up and leave?" I would.'

The English Theravadan monk Ven Ahjan Amaso also spoke up: 'Seeing the nuns not receiving the respect given to the monks is very painful. It is like having a spear in your heart,' he said."

This happened in March 1993, in Dharmasala, seat of the Dalai Lama in exile.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.14.71 (talk) 19:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very weak sources...

Throughout this article, most notably in the intro paragraph. The sources for this line "...have found evidence that the eight Garudhammas are not really from the teachings of Buddha [3][4][5]" are not academic sources, they are person webpages, one of which doesn't even exist anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joechip123 (talk • contribs) 22:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Added a third-party message box in revision 1016707863. 2607:9000:2000:19:0:0:0:A10D (talk) 17:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Details of the updated article references published on 27-09-2024

Further to IP 31.4.230.198’s comment on 25/08/2024, 21:49 (see modification history page), I felt it necessary to check the 33 references in the article. Here's the result :

1) Sources and links for the 33 references mentioned :

- There were 2 obsolete links which have been removed: (n°10 and n° 31) ;

- Three other links have been corrected and updated : (current n° 24,28,29, previously 25,29,31);

The 28 remaining links are still valid as they stand.

2) Regarding IP 31.4.230.198’s remark "that there are no academic ratings/citations":

After a thorough and careful check, it appears that this remark is unjustified.

Contrary to this statement, we can see, for example, that the current note n° 27 (formerly n°28 - following the removal of the former n° 10, see above) was published by the University of California, Berkeley. The "References" section lists nine authors, five of whom are academics, as follows:

-Bhikkhu Analayo, professor at the University of Hamburg and habilitation at the University of Marburg (Germany);

- Susan Murcott, senior lecture rat the M.I.T,(US);

- Dr. Chatsumarn Kabilsingh (Dhammananda Bhikkhuni), professor at the Thammasat University, (Thailand);

- Akira Hirakawa , member of the Japan Academy;

- Karma Lekshe Tsomo, professor at the University of San Diego and University of Hawaii Manoa, (US).

The other four authors are the bhikkhus who have been internationally recognised for decades :

- Bhikkhu Sujato, Ajahn Brahm, Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu, Thubten Chodron.

These nine authors have published several hundred books and articles and translated thousands of sutras from Pali. So they all know what they're talking about.

Accordingly, the remark made by IP 31.4.230.198: «citations are too personal, non-academic, sectarian, webpage : which no longer exists. This article is very obviously extremely biased » , appears to be unfounded.

If we want to detect a 'sectarian' attitude, it does not seem that we should look for it on the part of the contributors who have indicated reliable sources.

3) Final result : There were 33 references. After checking and updating, 31 remain. No other changes have been made to the text of the article.

In conclusion, I would like to express my sincere thanks to the IP 31.4.230.198 contributor, because thanks to his action (which at first sight seemed to me to be more a negative criticism than constructive), He gave me the opportunity to contribute by trying to improve an article. Thank you to him for that.

I won't be taking part in the discussion aimed at reaching a consensus, trusting in the community. 14.185.227.231 (talk) 05:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]