Talk:Edmund Kean

Sword

No mention of Byron's sword?

A substantial chunk of Ron Rosenbaum's new book, The Shakespeare Wars, is given to a description of Byron's reaction to seeing Kean in a Shakespearean performance. Byron was so carried away he had a sword made, and engraved, just to present it to Kean. That sword became famous, as a token that its possessor was the greatest Shakespearean actor of his time. Gielgud had the sword for 15 years, and passed it on to Laurence Olivier.

This sword ought to be mentioned in the Kean article, no? Anyway, I'll work something up soon if no one else does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christofurio (talk • contribs) 17:03, 19 November 2006

Adultery & Divorce

We have (in the 8th of currently 15 'graphs)

In Switzerland, he met Charlotte Cox, the wife of a London city alderman. Kean was sued by Cox for adultery on his return to England. Damages of £800 was awarded against him in the presence of a jury in just 10 minutes. The London Times launched a violent attack on him. The adverse decision in the divorce case of Cox v. Kean on 17 January 1825 caused his wife to leave him, ....

but

1. American readers at least need it explained what "divorce case of Cox v. Kean" means, since in US divorce cases are spouse vs. spouse, e.g. Kramer vs. Kramer.
2. Similarly, "sued ... for adultery" is at least odd to American ears: adultery was (but at least in practice no longer is) a criminal (as opposed to a civil) matter, except when it is a ground for suing one's own spouse for divorce. The (civil) complaint in US against one's cuckolder was, at least until late 20th century, "alienation of affections",

   a tort action brought by a deserted spouse against a third party alleged to be responsible for the failure of the marriage,

   which i think basically provides(/d) revenge on the third party via money damages.

3. Finally, "in the presence of a jury in just 10 minutes" not only makes no sense to my Yank ears, but it also must be making a distinction that is contrary to what i believe about jury procedure: if a jury is present, that is for them to make at least a yes/no decision, or to say they can't. Can this be anything other than a perverse or brain-dead way of saying "The jury found against him in 10 minutes" and that they or the judge awarded £800? WTF is wrong w/ EB, anyway?

--Jerzy•t 15:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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Date of birth

There seems to be a lack of certainty about his date of birth. According to this, it was either 4 November 1787 (as we currently have it) or 17 March 1789, but the source for both dates was the same person, Charlotte Tidswell. A lot of internet sources give just the 1789 date without any mention of any other. So, is there any source clarifying this matter and giving us some sort of certainty? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Due to the lack of response, I asked the question @ Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities, and got the following responses there:

Edmund Kean's date of birth

I asked a question @ Talk:Edmund Kean#Date of birth, but it has not exactly taken the interest of the world by storm.

Essentially, the same source for the date we have (4 November 1787) also gave an alternative date (17 March 1789). That later date appears in many online searches, without any mention of the earlier one. And vice-versa.

Has this ever been resolved? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

It's likely the first is date of birth and the second is date of Baptism which sacrament was considered more relevant then than now, at least partly due to the prevalence of perinatal deaths. Doug butler (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

I doubt they'd wait a year and a half to get him baptised for that very reason, Doug. They normally did it within a few days. Chuntuk (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

• Cornwall, Barry (1835). The Life of Edmund Kean. pp. 4–5. ...scarcely possible to imagine the year of his birth to have been later than 1787.
• Hawkins, Frederick William (1869). The life of Edmund Kean. p. 4. Notwithstanding certain lausibilities to the contrary the parentage and birth-place of Edmund Kean are not involved in the slightest uncertainty. He was born on the 4th of November, 1787.
• Hillebrand, Harold Newcomb (1966) [1933]. Edmund Kean. p. 3. So far as there seems to be any weight of opinion in this none-too-important matter, that weight is for 1787
• Playfair, Giles (1983). The flash of lightning : a portrait of Edmund Kean. pp. 15–21. ...certainly 17th March, and the year was very probably 1789
• Fitzsimons, Raymond (1976). Edmund Kean : fire from heaven. p. xii. I have accepted Professor Hillebrand's assessment...

Thanks, whoever posted these. Playfair is out of step with the others. He seems as certain of 1789 as the others are of 1787. How does this help matters? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Considering Playfair's argument, I think his case is strong, assuming he does not unfairly present a skewed image of the available evidence.  --Lambiam 09:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

The Cult of Kean (Introduction) by Jeffrey Kahan (2017), repeats Hillebrands comment on March 1789 or November 1787: "there is no reason to believe that either is correct", but also notes the numerous contradictory "yarns" about Kean's childhood. Alansplodge (talk) 13:32, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely right. There is no evidence to believe that either November 1787 or March 1789 is correct. Playfair writes: "On 4th April, 1810, he sent a letter to Mrs Clarke that incidentally testified to his own belief that he was born on 17th March, 1789." Obviously he gave his birthday as 17 March and the phrase "incidentally testified" indicates that it was Playfair who concluded the year was 1789. The date was confirmed in the Rothesay Express of 28 June 1893 which printed a letter from Kean to Dr Gibson inviting him to dinner on 17th March to celebrate his birthday.

The year is equally certain - Hawkins (1869) says at p. 6 that his mother reclaimed him in November 1789 at the age of three. His first appearance at Drury Lane (p. 7) was in late 1790. A few months later (p. 7), therefore early in 1791, at the age of four, he appeared in Noverre's Cupid. On 21 April that year he played the role of one of the goblins in Macbeth. Encyclopaedia Britannica thus gives his date of birth as 17 March 1787. 2A00:23C6:2403:C400:59EC:5D53:BA2:5D2C (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

• In case you don't have access, here's another: Thomson, Peter (2015). "Kean, Edmund". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/15204. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.) Kean, Edmund (1787–1833), actor, was born on 4 November 1787 [...] Kean's date of birth and parentage have both been disputed. Chuntuk (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Theatrical works

I saw German actor Will Quadflieg in the German version of Sartre's "Kean" in Hamburg, back in the early 1970s. Had no idea who Kean was then. BubbleDine (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Parentage

I'm doing the family history for Edmund Kean. The wiki page says that his mother Anne Carey was the daughter of Henry Carey, but I believe that can be corrected. I understand that Mary Ann 'Nance' Carey is generally accepted as the mother of Edmund Kean. I understand that her parents are George Saville Carey and Mary Ann Phipps. The baptism for Mary Ann Carey is 24 Feb 1763 at St Bride Fleet St City of London. The marriage by licence of George Saville Carey and Mary Ann Phipps is 5th Jul 1760 at St Dunstan in the West. (I have never posted here before, and before I post any more, I will test the waters by finishing this here.) EdmundKeanByrne (talk) 06:56, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Incidentally, an advertisement in the London Times on 2.5.1789, mentioned how Moses Kean held a benefit show at Rice’s great room, Brewer St, Golden Square, with his brother Edmund Kean, and George Saville Carey. EdmundKeanByrne (talk) 07:26, 24 October 2024 (UTC)