Talk:East Germany–Zanzibar relations

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A fact from East Germany–Zanzibar relations appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 8 November 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the first East German embassy in Africa opened in Zanzibar in 1964?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/November. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/East Germany–Zanzibar relations.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 05:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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~~... that the GDR ambassador to Zanzibar became the first East German ambassador with permanent residence to an African country?~~

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Silver Deer of Bilge Khan

Created by Soman (talk). Self-nominated at 19:17, 29 August 2021 (UTC).[reply]

The article was created within the past seven days and is long enough; however, the hook is not cited with an incline citation. It may also be helpful to include the ambassador's name, Chargé d'Affaires Günther Fritsch, in the hook. Huey117 (talk) 00:35, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't notice the review above, anyway, I think the article is fine - the hook's claim is cited in the body. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:48, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Genuine question: what exactly is meant by "permanent"? Günther Fritsch appears to have been there for a little over one year. If that is permanent, does it mean that other East German diplomats flew home for the weekends from their African countries? Schwede 66 18:45, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

'Permanent residence' is an established term in diplomacy, there is a difference between ambassadors accredited to a country but based somewhere else and those that are based in the country where they are accredited. --Soman (talk) 23:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I wonder how well known that is. I'm familiar with the concept of permanent residency and in particular New Zealand permanent residency. There's unfortunately not an article about the diplomacy term. I wonder whether it's possible to set up a redirect to a relevant article and write something about the concept. I suspect that others will also struggle to get the point that is being conveyed here. Alternatively, maybe it needs an alternative hook that's less confusing / ambiguous. Beyond that, having now looked at the reference, I quote (page 64): "The outcome was the presence of the first East German ambassador to take up permanent residence in a recognised African state." I'm not sure what exactly is being referred to by "recognised state" but I would assume that it's a subset of all African states. Would it therefore be possible that what the hook conveys does not necessarily align with what the source says? Schwede 66 23:51, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

user:Soman, the above needs some attention. Maybe an alt hook is best. Schwede 66 17:17, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How about ALT1 - "... that the first East German embassy in Africa was opened in Zanzibar in 1964?" --Soman (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Soman and Schwede66? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:38, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, yes, that's fine for a hook, theleekycauldron. I didn't think of myself as the reviewer of this nominations; Huey117 is. I was just reading some hooks, this one caught my attention and I started looking into it. I haven't done anything else but review the hook and read the source that goes with it. Schwede 66 06:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

new reviewer needed as the reviewer has been AWOL for a while. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:53, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The hook fact is mentioned in the lede, but is not directly mentioned in the article (the body wording is "the first East German diplomat to take permanent residence as ambassador" rather than "the first East German embassy in Africa"), so either the latter sentence needs to be revised, or a reference be added to the lede mention. ~~In addition, a QPQ has yet to be provided.~~ Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:47, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Narutolovehinata5, QPQ appears to have been done as stated above. Schwede 66 04:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops, not sure how I missed that. The rest of the review still stands however. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I feel we are back to square one. The initial hook was "first East German ambassador with permanent residence to an African country", which was then contested on the notion that 'permanent residence' was somehow ambiguous. Either we go with the most factually correct wording ("first East German ambassador with permanent residence to an African country") or we water it down ("first Embassy in Africa"). This embassy was, per the fact that it had the first ambassador with permanent residence, the first proper embassy in Africa with a building etc, but GDR probably had temporary delegations before that. --Soman (talk) 11:54, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Soman: Adding a footnote to East Germany initiated a number assistance programs to Zanzibar, and established its first embassy in Africa on Zanzibar. would solve my main issue, at the very least. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:21, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

added now. --Soman (talk) 17:12, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I hope to finish the full review by tomorrow. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:38, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to Huey's review, no close paraphrasing was found and a QPQ has been done. ALT1 addresses Huey's original concerns since it makes mentioning the ambassador's name unnecessary, and it's more concise and accurate. While the article is technically good to go, I just find it confusing that there's no mention of what happened to the embassy-turned-consulate after the compromise was reached: was it also closed in 1971, or before? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:06, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any mention what happened to the building of the embassy after it was converted into consulate. Not certain that the GDR consulate on the island used the same structure that had belonged to the embassy --Soman (talk) 11:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5, as your question is not a DYK compliance issue, could you please give the tick of approval for your review to clear the backlog. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 19:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about the fate of the building, but rather the fate of the consulate itself. Was the consulate also disestablished in 1971? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:17, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This looks good to go. As per others, the article is new enough, long enough, and no probable copyright violations. Non-English citations in the article are accepted in good faith. I'd prefer the original hook, as it is stated and cited with an inline citation in the article. Please note that I am a new reviewer, and would like a second opinion. Thanks, Heythereimaguy (talk) 22:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the bulk of the discussion here was regarding ALT0's suitability and that rough consensus was that it wasn't had issues, I've struck ALT0. The tick is kept however as there are no other remaining article issues and ALT1 addresses earlier concerns raised. Courtesy ping to Heythereimaguy in case they missed the discussion regarding ALT0 earlier. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see. In that case, go with alt1. Heythereimaguy (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT1 to T:DYK/P4